BruceVC

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support. I believe that the retort to that would be that morality is subjective, and that humans don't have any inherent rights. Of course, I don't believe that, but no one is asking me to make laws. It is a oxymoron in some ways. If you truly believe in a specific morality you feel compelled to enforce it, even tough forcing ones beliefs and values on someone can in itself be inherently immoral. In other words, everyone is self-righteous. Everyone. No exceptions. I want to ask you a very important question, do you personally think its right to put someone in jail for life for having consensual same sex?

Stop with the straw-man tactics Bruce. Of course I have an interest in the homophobic laws in Uganda. It's why I was following this thread. Also, how do you know I have never shown any interest in any social justice issues that you've raised? Do I have to reply to a thread to show I show an interest? Is not reading a thread enough? Just because I haven't responded to a thread doesn't mean I'm not taking an interest in it. Also, I don't know what your hang up is with RPGCodex. It seems you bring this up on every thread (exaggeration I know but it seems to becoming the norm). I'm not a member of that forum and I don't need to bring up the Codex or other forums to know that there's some lunatics on the internet. If the Codex is the worse you've seen, then you must live a sheltered life which can be a good thing. You're not subjected to stuff that you aren't comfortable to see. Again, that may be a good thing for you. Because there's some really horrible stuff out there and you haven't even scratched the surface. That's what the internet is or what it seems to be. A free for all - good and bad. And I clearly said what I said about your comments. Also, you're being very evasive and still NOT refuted the news article I linked. How about being honest and state the facts instead of dancing around the issue. Is it some sort of national pride, that you take issue with people highlighting bad stuff with South Africa, like stuff that happens in the news link I quoted? Because I've noticed a trend with you highlighting the good stuff in South Africa but always getting defensive and downplaying the bad things that happen there. Oh no, it's not common at all... Seriously? I wonder if this sort of stuff in South Africa is happening in Uganda. One can only hope it's not. Okay I apologize if I seemed rude or dismissive. I really didn't think you cared about these types of social issues and it seems your post was rather aimed at trying to catch me out than the real issue at hand. I also got annoyed when it seemed that you were suggesting I don't take the issue of corrective rape seriously Corrective rape happens in South Africa, the article is correct. I never said it doesn't. I love my country but of course we face real social problems. In fact one of the main reasons for me being so concerned with bigotry and discrimination is because of the fact I live in South Africa, I have travelled extensively and worked in Africa and I have seen first hand what happens when people act on certain prejudices The article says that a rape happens in South Africa very 17 seconds and 500,000 rapes a year. Real and accurate rape statistics are hard to get but the number I base my discussions on are not as high as that http://africacheck.org/spot_check/sa-radio-stations-rape-stats-factually-incorrect/ If you take the article though as completely accurate then it says there are 10 cases of corrective rape a week which is 520 cases a year. If you calculate that as a percentage of the total rape cases this is only 1/10 of 1 % ( 520/500000 * 100) of the total number of rapes committed in South Africa. That's why I said its not common, I was referring to the overall rape statistics But I don't want to distract people from the crime and seriousness of corrective rape. Its a terrible outcome of the extreme actions of people who are homophobic and sexist and people living in South Africa think it is reprehensible.

n It takes a great deal of self-righteousness and/or hubris to call for sanctions on any nation over anything. 'Aid' from the west is generally really just bribes and funding of the west's agenda's and interests. Uganda would do well if it could to not accept any outside 'aid', just about any nation would. Of course leaders of such nations would likely find themselves facing opposition funded by the west if such opposition could be found, which it usually can. Africa fails to achieve it's true potential because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests, in particular European interests, though Asia and the U.S. also have their hands dirty there. Hubris. Self-righteousness. Wow those are big words to describe something that is regularly implemented against countries when they make decisions that are unacceptable to many countries in the world. Uganda already gets aid, 20 % of its budget is outside aid, and Uganda as every country does is reliant on international investment in order to grow there economy. And when you say "because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests" you sound like Robert Mugabe trying to justify why his economic polices have destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. You don't know much about how certain countries in Africa operate or how there governments manage there economies do you? Hardly big words. Regularly implemented yes. It's the norm for sure. It's one of the prime tools of the neo-colonialists of the last half+ century. That does not make it right or any less self righteous or audacious, or at the higher echelons of the decision making often downright evil. As far as Mugabe and Zimbabwe, while I certainly don't agree with Mugabe on many things, he's right if he's ever said something along the lines of what I did. His nation's economy is in shambles largely due to U.S., U.K., et al intervention in the form of sanctions and other punishments, which is downright disgusting at best. How dare Mugabe leave the Commonwealth! I know African geopolitics pretty well, and how the strings are pulled there and elsewhere subtly and overtly quite well as well. You certainly have no monopoly on knowledge of Africa just because you happen to live in South Africa, while most of the rest of us on this board do not. For better or worse Uganda should be left alone to make it's own laws. Rather than get bent out of shape about their violations of real or perceived rights, look in your own backyard. Many folks in many nations (including my own) would do better to do so than worry about internal laws of Uganda which are by and large benign on the world stage. There are worse and more oppressive laws of a variety of different types on the books in both the U.S., South Africa, and most if not all other 'western' nations than what folks are decrying currently in Uganda. And it's possibly the very efforts of some of the organizations that are leading the charge in decrying Uganda's policy that influenced it's implementing. There certainly has been some backlash in places other than Uganda to the global steamrolled agenda known as LGBT rights. Firstly I am an afro-optimist, but I am also a pragmatist about the political and economic challenger's that face the continent. I also didn't say "I'm only the informed person on these forums because I live in Africa". I am saying you aren't very informed if you think the reason that Africa is on the state its in is because of Western countries and Neo-Colonialism ( what does that even mean in the context of issues that Africa faces) Give me some examples of where "Neo-Colonialism " is relevant in Africa today and is the reason that certain African countries haven't achieved there full potential. That term is thrown around whenever people want to deflect attention from addressing the systemic problems that exist in certain African countries because some leaders in Africa love hating the West and blaming there own failures on imperialism and "Neo-Colonialism" Certain Western and Eastern corporations have played there part in negatively impacting the economies of African countries, I know that. But the primary reason for the failure of Africa to achieve its full potential are reasons like corruption, lack of good governance, 30 year dictatorship, lack of education, lack of economic transformation and failure to uplift the lives of there people when the leaders of some countries live in the lap of luxury. Finally I love Africa and I absolutely believe it can achieve great economic heights. But I am also not a denialist who refuses to acknowledge where the real issues that face transformation are. And I can promise you that integrity of Western and Eastern corporations that invest in Africa are a small part of the problem.

First. can you tidy up your post please? You've been asked before to avoid mutli-quoting as it becomes a mess when you're quoting multiple posts within multiple posts. I'm not trying to find an oblique point at all. I was responding to your downplaying of AGX-17's post. I didn't even see that part of AGX-17's post until you quoted him and tried to downplay what was happening in South Africa. AGX-17 made an offhand comment, you've also taken it off topic and I'm responding to your posts. Also, just because I have never heard of a term before and go and do some research doesn't have anything to do with lack of credibility or lack of knowledge on the subject. In the last hour or so, I did some reading up on various sites and studies that have been quoted, to get different accounts of what it is. Also you say it's not common? Everywhere I've read (news reports, studies, etc) state the opposite. You say the perpetrators are brought to justice when they are caught. I guess the operative word here is 'when' because it seems according to a lot of reports and studies, most are never caught due to various (sometimes eyebrow raising) reasons. You attack me about credibility and lack of knowledge (an ad hominem attack) but don't refute the news article. There seems to be an issue with lack of credibility Bruce, and it's not me. So you have no interest in discussing the homophobic laws in Uganda but now want to the debate the fact I seemed dismissive of Agx's post. That's fine lets do that . I am also glad you are so interested in the scourge of corrective rape in South Africa. You have never really shown any interest when I raised issues of social justice before or what are some of the consequences of bigotry. I can only assume this will translate to you supporting me when I raise awareness that people who make rape jokes on forums need to be condemned. So its good to have you aboard. Any raised awareness around rape is good for us dealing with this serious problem So what exactly do you want to discuss about my comment, is the fact I said that corrective rape isn't common or the fact I said its illegal? Or is it fact I said that corrective rape is considered an abhorrent behavior perpetuated by people who are ignorant and homophobic? You say I downplayed his comment, in what way do you feel I downplayed his comment because that's seems to be your concern?

I'd never heard the term before. After doing a google search and from news reports, it doesn't seem to be uncommon. Quite the opposite. I'm not sure why you're downplaying this. I'm appalled by just reading one story that was reported last month and this practice continues in South Africa. I'd never heard the term before. After doing a google search and from news reports, it doesn't seem to be uncommon. Quite the opposite. I'm not sure why you're downplaying this. I'm appalled by just reading one story that was reported last month and this practice continues in South Africa. I'm not sure where you are going with this, you are trying to make a oblique point and find a connection with what is happening in Uganda that doesn't exist. The fact that you had never heard of corrective rape before highlights your lack credibility or knowledge in this topic But if you had read some of my comments in the past around discrimination you would have been aware of corrective rape as I raised it before as an example of what happens when people are allowed to act on bigotry. Also corrective rape is not legal in South Africa, it is a hate crime and comes from ignorance and homophobia. There is absolutely no correlation between the homophobic law that has been passed in Uganda and the fact that corrective rape is perpetuated in South Africa What are you trying to say?

The fact that you're even entertaining the idea that the masses of Africa are friendly to the concept of homosexuality would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Africa is as backwards as continents get. This is a landmass where people are still regularly burned alive for witchcraft. In Africa's most westernized/"civilized" country, South Africa, "corrective rape" of lesbians is commonplace. A correction there Agx as you've raised this before. Corrective rape happens but it is unequivocally condemned and the perpetrators of this heinous act of ignorance and bigotry prosecuted when they are caught. And to be fair its not common

Okay this must be one of the first times I am completely agreeing with you..I am a lttle stunned. But good and valid point

I have another question, do you guys think in the interest of the most effective way of burning Calories that it's better to train first thing in the morning, before you eat, or in the early evening before supper ? Or does it make no difference. I have heard conflicting views on this one

I like your logic and I support your view indubitably

Because these people would rather have crappy romances than no romances at all. I was going to write up a giant post about this, and about how this very mindset of adopting and accepting low standards is a cancer on the entire industry, but I found myself no longer caring about this beat-up dead horse. Now you are discriminating against dead horses, please don't do that and please find it in yourself to care. Dead horses have feelings to

Valid point, I suppose that's the best way to address this decision by the Ugandan government.

It takes a great deal of self-righteousness and/or hubris to call for sanctions on any nation over anything. 'Aid' from the west is generally really just bribes and funding of the west's agenda's and interests. Uganda would do well if it could to not accept any outside 'aid', just about any nation would. Of course leaders of such nations would likely find themselves facing opposition funded by the west if such opposition could be found, which it usually can. Africa fails to achieve it's true potential because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests, in particular European interests, though Asia and the U.S. also have their hands dirty there. Hubris. Self-righteousness. Wow those are big words to describe something that is regularly implemented against countries when they make decisions that are unacceptable to many countries in the world. Uganda already gets aid, 20 % of its budget is outside aid, and Uganda as every country does is reliant on international investment in order to grow there economy. And when you say "because outside interests keep it in the dark ages to further their own interests" you sound like Robert Mugabe trying to justify why his economic polices have destroyed the Zimbabwean economy. You don't know much about how certain countries in Africa operate or how there governments manage there economies do you?

That's a good link, its a little frustrating but I understand what the author is getting at. He says if the West wants to enforce punitive economic measures on Uganda there will be a violent backlash against the LBGT community as they will get blamed. That does makes sense so he wants the current Western corporations invested in Uganda to educate the Ugandan people that the homosexuality always existed in Uganda and wasn't something that the West brought into the country with there liberal lifestyle choices. Okay but I question if this will make any difference as once people are fixated on hating a particular minority group its takes a paradigm shift to change it. But end of the day I have to support what's best for the LBGT community in Uganda, so as much as it pains me to accept it maybe there should no sanctions or measures against Uganda from the West

Let us know what you think

I often read your updates on games which are objective and detailed so if you play the Demo that would suffice for some relevant insight into this KS

It looks good but I'll wait for others, like Keyrock or Indira, who have a better knowledge of all things game related to comment before I decide to pledge

I also doubt that Monte was born on D-Day. Shocking, isn't it? How could I possibly trust anything he says anymore oh wait it's a joke. What I don't understand about the promance point of view here is this: Josh said that the PoE team had come to the conclusion that they didn't think they could do romances up to the standard they demand of themselves. So why don't the promancers trust the devs' own assessment of their abilities and resources? Hah! I'm not north american nor european, so D-Day isn't nearly as significant to me, hence why I didn't notice the date. The drunk part does ring true, though . Don't take Monte too seriously, his good outweighs his bad. I know the first time you experience his posting style it can be a little frustrating( I felt the same ) but if you stay active on the forums you'll see he can very articulate and humorous

I see nothing wrong with setting up such a trap using others words Bruce it's a nice tactic in any good argument if successful, however it's not that I dismiss the importance of words but that I see them as too important to constrain in any way, that is why I hold free speech and dialogue to be so important. They should not be held back by such things as offensiveness or hurtfulness, which are entirely subjective and often extremely wrong. Alright, I can't lie... I'm feeling guilty I did try to trap you but it failed. But if it had succeeded it would have been a grand moment

Funny enough South Africa has just granted a temporary work visa to a prominent Ugandan gay doctor who is also a gay activist so its already happening for skilled professionals, I just feel sorry for the unskilled gay Ugandans http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-ugandan-activist-granted-sa-work-permit/

You right, I didn't mean to suggest full sanctions as that won't happen. But Obama has said this will sour relations and that's never a good thing for any African country. But Uganda has made its bed, now they need to lie in it. Oh and the Ugandan president is full of it

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support. Okay, a bit of a leap to go from a law jailing people for being homosexual to two genocides. If it's widely supported, then beating them with the stick might not help reverse their decision, sadly. Never underestimate the impact of sanctions, it played a major part in ending Apartheid

Please re-read Animal Farm. The formerly oppressed are entirely capable of turning to oppression. And now, of course, we have Putin the new world champion of 'Traditional Values.' stalking the world stage like a 'B' Movie villain, giving credence to the ignorant. Good point around Animal Farm and another thing that really frustrates me is some of these African countries have these corrupt governments that squander the resources and the majority of people live in extreme poverty. But the blame for there situation often falls on Western countries and Colonialism. And yet when they get the chance to focus on economic reform what do they do...they pass a law to discriminate against a minority group. And because the average citizen of the country is ignorant and the AU is utterly impotent they get away with it

Nonek thanks for responding to all my questions, I can appreciate the fact that it must have been a little annoying but I sometimes think its a better way to get to a final point so you understand the context of where someone is coming from. In South Africa there is a racist word to describe black people that begins with the letter "K" ( I don't need to say the word). This word is completely unacceptable to use and people in the public limelight who have used the word have been fired, that's how serious it is. This word is derogatory and very offensive and hurtful to black people and others as it represents the days of Apartheid where black people were marginalised and discriminated against. But its just a word and yet that single word symbolizes something much more. Do you think the millions of black people in South Africa need to have thicker skin around what this word represents for them? So the usage of that word is never acceptable under any circumstances because of our history. Now you have admitted that there are certain words on certain forums that should not be used and I have given you an example of another word that should never be used. Its that same logic that highlights the point that just because its the Internet and a forum discussion it doesn't mean that there should be no responsibility on people to not use those words or say certain things. Its starts with you and how you say things and it starts with you and what you are prepared to accept when you engage in discussion On RPGCodex around the post that "PoE wouldn' have Romance " I read some of the comments. Some people made comments like " well if they have Romance then I want the option to be able to rape someone". Of course they were being sarcastic but the fact that they are so indifferent about a serious problem that faces society tells me that some of the members really think that this type of humour is acceptable and the worst part of it is that the website and the moderators seem fine with this type of debate All I ask is that people have some empathy around bigotry and discrimination. Its real and does upset and impact thousand of people on a daily basis. And we also need to realize that there are certain boundaries that on public forum that we should never cross. Even if you feel if doesn't effect you personally that doesn't mean it isn't a serious issue for others Yes Bruce i'm quite aware of what you were doing and that is why I avoided your little trap with ease, and as I said I don't believe in censoring words whether they cause offence or not for adults, and I would say that studying the insult you refer to and its original use by Islamic slave traders is worthy of discussion and further education. Whether the tribes who have come to now inhabit the South African region are insulted by this appelation or not is hardly a matter worthy of bringing up in the etymology of the word, it exists, it was used and trying to lie and erase something from history is shameful and wrong headed, those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. As I have said discussion for adults should not be blinkered by political correct and fashionable lies, enforced by those who see it as a professional duty to take offence on the net, have a self righteous attitude that their feelings are important and they know what is right and wrong and wish to enforce that on others. These people who actively search for topics to take offence on, yet do not like to examine their own work and actions, should grow thicker skins and not place such importance on the words of strangers from half a world away. If the matter is that important and they are so touchy on it simply do not place it in the public sphere, avoid places where it is openly discussed and seek professional counselling rather than browsing the net. To try and wallow in offence and self rigtheous posturing is the action of a needy child seeking attention and not worthy of a grown up, and keeping private matters private is not wrong or censorious. Rough jokes and inconsiderate humour are just that, abuse and threats are what they are and the two things are different, should the Life of Brian not have been made because the Church of England were offended? Should Lady Chatterley's Lover never have been written or read because of offence taken by those who disliked and hated this modern medium and this supposed filth? Should the Bible never have been translated into English because that is not a holy language? The answer is no to all of the above and many more, and those who try and stifle free speech... well let's just say that I wouldn't like to live in the backwards, humourless and ever so dull world they live in. I take offence at their wish to censor everything, even a few gentlemen sharing some rough politically incorrect jokes and ribbing when under the influence of a few pints. However I would not say that they should be censored, or that everybody should listen to my oh so important feelings on this, because i'm not special, i'm not right and my offence means nothing and certainly should not be enforced on other people. Addendum: I do not partake in abuse or even swear so the implication that i'm trying to make myself feel good about my words and actions is false. I simply do not believe in constraining free speech for adults, whether it is for self pity, self righteousness or somebody somewhere drawing offence from any word that is spoken. If you do constrain them and have a prefect method of policing this for all seven billion people at all times then they are not adults, they are children and slaves who cannot speak their minds. We have little enough freedom as it is, I cannot understand this ill thought out desire to further decrease it. Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

It is broadly supported. But what has that got to do with morality of putting people in jail for consensual sex? In Rwanda the majority of people also supported the genocide and in Cambodia the Khmer Rouge also had popular support.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/24/world/africa/uganda-anti-gay-bill/index.html What can I say...what can I say. Its appalling, shocking and unacceptable but the Ugandan president has signed the bill into law. The West should immediately cut any and all aid to Uganda. Apart from the obvious issues I have with this legislation there is the following The member states of the African Union are suppose to adhere to the African Charter of Human rights which says you can't discriminate against people around points like there sexual orientation. So this is yet another example of the failure of the AU to pressure countries to stick to the manifesto of the AU that they agreed to. No wonder Africa keeps failing to achieve its true potential I am always amazed that countries that suffered under colonialism and racism are keen to pass laws that allow them to discriminate against other minority groups, my how we forget our past. Hypocrisy anyone ? Well done Uganda for this step into anachronism