BruceVC

Hiro do you think you could possibly make some constructive comments about this topic instead of petulant blanket insults and opaque statements about "some people" I know its going to be hard, but I have confidence that you can say something interesting?

Actually is more of a knee jerk reaction. There was an experiment with monkeys and social conditioning, the monkeys where locked in a room that had a stair and a fruit on top of it. When a monkey tried to reach for the fruit they turned on a spray that hit the monkeys on the bottom. Eventually the monkeys began self policing; when a monkey tried to get the fruit the rest would stop it. Then they began taking out monkeys and putting new ones in and when the new guy tried to get the fruit the rest would stop it. Eventually the new monkeys would join in the policing attempts. They continued this until the original group was completely replaced and the monkeys still had the conditioning. Its ritual without the meaning. Actually I would say you are both wrong, where does it say in the comment from Epic games the reason they want there image removed is due to nature of the game. In fact they state "and we explicitly don't exert any sort of creative control or censorship over projects " so this is really a trademark issue But don't get me wrong, I think Epic games should say they want nothing to do with this game because of the nature of the game. But that's not the reason they are giving, so this is not a "SJ knee-jerk reaction" @ Volo I really don't think its a good idea you even entertain playing this game. I am worried about the negative impact it will have on you

I want to respond to this detail Orog, I am just about to start our weekly sales meetings so I'll comment later

Picture of journalist who either favourited and retweeted these bullying tweets: http://imgur.com/2o6lNXc This with what Orogun1 posted is damn depressing. These guys are openly encouraging bullying and the Guardian wont even talk with pro-GG crowd and labels them as idiots. I think I'm going to take a few day break from this. I thought when this started to hit mainstream media I would get to see more balanced articles, you know, reporters talking to the both sides, but no. No, no no. Lazy reporting what others have reported or even denouncing pro-GG crowd, like the Guardian. And why in the hell everyone keeps talking about Zoe? She is as important to GamerGate as Gavrilo Princip was to World War I. I agree with you, I think it is childish and unhelpful to suggest that all the people who support GG are " nerds who should be shamed into submission"' There are many people who support GG for reasons that are very valid to them and these types of insults must just be ignored

You asked me a question and I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, now you don't like my answer? I'll explain it a different way, end of the day if you want to do something about harassment and abuse on the Internet all you can do make personal stands and make a decision on principle, you are not necessarily going to impact change but that's not the point . Because no one controls the Internet. So what does this mean? As I mentioned distance yourself from GG, but explain the reasons why when you make this break. This does not mean you are suggesting every person on GG is guilty of abuse and misogyny. But GG is tainted, so rather don't support the overall movement. You can still discuss issues with gaming journalists but what you guys fail to grasp, despite the fact I repeat it regularly, is that GG won't achieve anything because of its lack of real support from the gaming industry And if you disagree with me then can you explain what changes GG has effectively been responsible for implementing? Because for me all it seems to do is polarize discussions? And then going back to what else you can do. If for example you are on a website that allows bigotry, like RPGCodex, then challenge people who make homophobic, rape jokes or anti-Semitic comments. Its not easy I know that, its much simpler just to say nothing. But once again when you make a decision around principle that becomes the salient reasons why you may or may not criticize certain comments. Never ask yourself "what will people think of me if I say this " ? (and of course sometimes this is a consideration ) Finally the objective of challenging abusive behaviour on the Internet is also to use your discretion, so there are times where you just have to let certain comments slide. Considering how many GG supporters are in the same position you were when you decided to stick by feminism and SJWs when you found out about their harassment, I would have thought you were more empathetic as to why people stick by GG despite is faults. Despite the harassment games themselves are not misogynistic, and right now GG is what is standing from feminist censorship of medium. I can completely understand people standing by GG, I would also stand by a movement that aligned with me ideologically But I can't understand why people would stand by a movement that has been hijacked by some of its members to push a certain agenda and that has tainted the ideological objective And just to be clear can you give me examples where feminist opinions have lead to actual censorship in the gaming industry. I know there is an amount of criticism of certain games but where has this lead to actual games now changing in way that has effected you personally. I can't think of any examples, so if you look at a game like GTAV it still exists and is still very popular despite the calls of sexism and misogyny ( and for the record I really enjoy the GTA franchise )

I'm playing F.E.A.R 2 at the moment, its good fun. I know there was criticism that it wasn't as entertaining as F.E.A.R 1 but I am enjoying it I have noticed it seems easier than the first one and the AI of the enemies isn't as impressive, but I may just be imagining that ?

You asked me a question and I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, now you don't like my answer? I'll explain it a different way, end of the day if you want to do something about harassment and abuse on the Internet all you can do make personal stands and make a decision on principle, you are not necessarily going to impact change but that's not the point . Because no one controls the Internet. So what does this mean? As I mentioned distance yourself from GG, but explain the reasons why when you make this break. This does not mean you are suggesting every person on GG is guilty of abuse and misogyny. But GG is tainted, so rather don't support the overall movement. You can still discuss issues with gaming journalists but what you guys fail to grasp, despite the fact I repeat it regularly, is that GG won't achieve anything because of its lack of real support from the gaming industry And if you disagree with me then can you explain what changes GG has effectively been responsible for implementing? Because for me all it seems to do is polarize discussions? And then going back to what else you can do. If for example you are on a website that allows bigotry, like RPGCodex, then challenge people who make homophobic, rape jokes or anti-Semitic comments. Its not easy I know that, its much simpler just to say nothing. But once again when you make a decision around principle that becomes the salient reasons why you may or may not criticize certain comments. Never ask yourself "what will people think of me if I say this " ? (and of course sometimes this is a consideration ) Finally the objective of challenging abusive behaviour on the Internet is also to use your discretion, so there are times where you just have to let certain comments slide.

Wow, this place got weird while I wasn't watching. Nah this thread has always been weird

Its more the mindless principle of the game design I am objecting to. I thought you guys demanded creativity....this game sets the bar very low

I really enjoyed GR1 but I won't lie, I had to use several videos to solve some of the puzzles I am glad I'm not the only who battled in that game

Nope that was pretty much what I was getting at. And convictions - unless as you pointed out earlier they might get you into trouble at work, in which case well they can take a back seat. You cheeky Malc, but that story about work is a completely different example

Ah, GG will lose out in the end, but it's nice to see things torn up. Wu's hard now, by the way - http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/brianna-wu-gamergate That's the one thing we do agree on. GG will lose out in the end and its not because the other side is necessarily intellectually or morally superior. Its because GG is tainted and as I have said several times no serious players in the gaming industry will stand by it so you won't see any changes they aspire to being implemented. So it should just run out of Steam when people get bored?

I'm not really sure any of you offer anything constructive, really, well beyond making yourselves feel better, perhaps. Have to laugh at all the crying over this too, not much real damage done on either side - keep hearing of lives ruined and careers done in, but whose ? Frank quit, kind of (she wrote stuff afterward), Quinn is making good cash, Sarkeesian likewise, Wu is now famous and seems to be away from home just to do press shows, heh. Funny enough I do feel better about myself but its probably not for the reasons you think I feel better about myself because I stand by my convictions and principles and say what I think is the right thing to say, I am not influenced by others or say things because I know the majority of people will like it because it suits a certain narrative

Not been following your kind throughout this ? Well I support most SJ views around gender equality, its only the radical feminists I don't think offer anything constructive. And I don't take everything Anita says as the gospel truth. But the SJ movement isn't some monolithic organisation where we all have the exact same views on all topic related to SJ, but we do share several perspectives But we are united on being opposed to Internet misogyny and sexism and from my side that's never going to change

Condemn and distance yourself from abuse and harassment as prominent figures from gamergate have done and stated repeatedly, yet SJF's have not even once. So advising millions of people on financial decisions that reach into the billions shouldn't be covered by any form of ethics or integrity. This is just ridiculous, instead you champion those who engage in corruption, nepotism and all manner of unethical behaviour, including insulting millions of their audience, and still think them fit for the purpose of serving the public? I'm utterly gobsmacked! I'm sorry Bruce but if those are your sentiments I see no reason in arguing with you, as that is utterly moronic, i'll join TN and ignore you from now on. No need to apologize Nonek, you must do what makes you happy. No need to engage in debate with me and anyone if you don't want to . That's the beauty of an open forum, you can chat to anyone you want to

I'm not sure why you are suggesting that? Who said all gamers on GG are the same or are responsible for the extremist element ?

Again, when we can do absolutely nothing to stop it, what the heck do you suggest we do about it? All suggestions that have been suggested that I've heard of are that we shut up and wait forever, or go with an official censored site which has about as many problems as the shut up and wait forever idea. It's not like someones gonna say "Oh look, Bruce is mad at me, I better stop telling women to get back to the kitchen, harassing people, or sending deaththreats.", if there is an issue that can't be tackled in any way, even if the issue is more severe than the issues you could easily deal with, the only sensible thing to do is ignore the big issue and focus on the things you can fix, all the smaller issues add up, and by the time you could've fixed the big issue without creating bigger issues (that time being in eternity, seeing as there is no solution here that isn't worse than the status quo), all the fixable things you've dealt with will leave the world a far better place than if you'd somehow been able to perfectly fix that big issue with no side effects. So, give us one way to deal with harassment (that isn't heavily flawed) if you want us to deal with it and believe it can be dealt with, otherwise move on to things we can deal with, and I'm not saying game journalism is near the top priority of things wrong with the world that could easily be heavily improved, but the whole waiting forever thing is just ridiculous. I suppose we just have different things that we think are important, firstly I don't consider gaming journalists real journalists compared to people who say work for CNN. So to expect them to reform and to be bound by the same standards as normal journalists is just a waste of time IMO. Secondly I don't think there is a conspiracy amongst gaming journalists to undermine and attack white, male gamers. But back to the abuse and harassment question, you must always condemn it when people are involved in it and then distance yourself from any website or group that is fine with it. You can also make posts and discussions around why you don't think its acceptable. I know this probably doesn't sound very exciting but its the Internet so I'm not sure what else you can really do?

Interesting input, I'm also not a great puzzle solver. I don't have much patience I think....so I wonder if I will also get frustrated with GR2

You sick and tired yet the sexism, harassment and threats continue from certain people So we have to continue to point out this unacceptable social behaviour

Probably the same as any other game, some games you butcher orcs by the truckload, this one just has you doing it to people. Rather funny, I found. I don't find anything funny about that game and I definitely won't be playing it, with all the possible games you could design this game look like its about someone going on a shooting spree against an unsuspecting population?

How surprising you're arguing for something to be controlled. Would be interesting to hear who you'd suggest moderate this website, heh. I would say someone with a vested interest in GG but also a moderate, so someone like TN or Orog would probably be the best type of moderator ?

This is the classic excuse, though. "The conspiracy theory I believe in is reasonable because the people behind it aren't accountable to reason!" Throw all the "enemies" in a box with a dehumanized acronym label, go on feeling that you belong to the group with the righteous cause, and laugh off those on "your side" who say or do hurtful things. Please, I'd actually disagree that the hypocrisy and self importance of SJWs is related to whether it's a conspiracy or not, you can have a conspiracy without the unquestioning self belief and you can have the self belief without the conspiracy. Plus, of course, pointing out that both sides do unpleasant things is hardly laughing off. That was just in reply to your "conspiracies don't form and hold together unless all the conspirators think there is something really important motivating them"- I was pointing out that clearly SJWs do consider such things critically important, and clearly there was a 'conspiracy'- your term, not mine- because they had a closed mailing list coordinating the response. Now, you can argue that the mailing list doesn't exist (which it does) or that SJWs don't consider such things important (self evidently incorrect) but you can't really start shifting the goal posts around to using acronyms to 'dehumanise', because everyone does that. The 'conspiracy'- again, your term- is confirmed. That SJWs consider such things important is confirmed. Now, I might dislike SJWs rather a lot and some issue can be taken with using the term, but that wouldn't be why I labelled their actions as coordinated. I labelled them as such because they incontrovertibly were. And really, there isn't any other term other than SJW, I usually use antiGG but that ain't appropriate for events that are before #GG was even a thing. (Nice rhetorical constructs by the way, use of the passive aggressive questions, labelling things yourself ('conspiracy') then criticising based on your own label etc. With any luck Bruce will learn a thing or too, might improve the quality of his trolling to near oby levels.) You seem very defensive today Zora? I suppose it must be very unsettling debating with someone of Enoch's insight, intelligence and reasonableness. I wasn't going to mention this but your post made me realize its best I do. Enoch is not someone who has ever particularly espoused SJ values, well at least he hasn't made as many comments as someone like me about any particular SJ issue But now he is raising the same issues that many of us have raised about the nature, creation and motives of GG. And guess what...he is finding the movement lacking in certain areas. Now what are we to do? You can't dismiss his points with the usual "that's just your typical SJW opinion and nonsense ". So I can perfectly understand how this must be making you question what you think about GG, and do you know what Zora. That's okay, its good to reevaluate our positions in life on certain things, you don't want people to think you are intransigent. So my advice is see this exchange as something positive where you can learn something new

This is the classic excuse, though. "The conspiracy theory I believe in is reasonable because the people behind it aren't accountable to reason!" Throw all the "enemies" in a box with a dehumanized acronym label, go on feeling that you belong to the group with the righteous cause, and laugh off those on "your side" who say or do hurtful things. Also, since when do people take things that Adam Baldwin say seriously? The man never met a wacky conspiracy theory he didn't like. Enoch I have to say its been really refreshing and interesting getting your perspective on this whole matter, I'm really glad you decided to participate in this discussion

I actually stumbled upon this earlier today and almost posted it. It's a pretty good read, even if it doesn't say anything new to those of us who've been around this for a while. If they want to end GanerGate, adopting an ethics policy is a good way to start and finish. Screaming that people need to **** off is probably just going to poss them off. I don't believe you stumbled on this article KP, sorry. I think you are trying to take credit for some initial stumble but in fact you never stumbled at all If you had stumbled you probably would have told us, so no credit given for false stumbling

I hear you, but the reality is the complete anonymity of something like Twitter leads to some people being even more brazenly vituperative than they would on a forum I just feel a website is a better to manage and dissect all this information, yes there is the potential for the website being hijacked but it would be a pro-GG website anyway so that would be an established fact. The challenge at the moment is how do you have a reasonable debate with people who are active on GG without using Twitter?