BruceVC

Okay I have to say that this must be one of the funniest articles I have read in a ages, the thought of people on GG having a serious debate with a bot cracked me up :lol: I know I shouldn't be laughing but you guys must admit it is funny when someone gets conned like that under those circumstances

Yes, it is. The whole thing would have blown over in a week if there had not been a coordinated attempt to censor every mention of it- up to and including using DMCA takedown notices. As soon as that happened the Streisand Effect took over, and the censorship became larger than the story. Though, of course, the antiGG crowd never mention that. It also certainly didn't help that ZQ had publicly made some contextually pretty inflammatory statements about men cheating on women being equivalent to rape and then decided to cheat repeatedly on her bf. Then you had the- obviously coordinated, as well- 'Gamers are dead' articles attacking the people who theoretically at least give most of the people writing the articles their livelihoods, though of course the antiGG crowd no longer mention those. And of course the doxxing of GG people, fake accusations based on said doxxing, death threats based on said doxxing (usually laughed at though), comparisons to ISIS, ddosing Gamersgate (useless SJWs, illiterate and can't even ddos a site with multiple domains properly), using smurf/ sockpuppet accounts, general and repeated hypocrisy/ cognitive dissonance/ irony being something for putting creaseys in shirtys, and verifiable false flags like claiming to be 4chan and threatening to release nudes of Hermione Grainger when it was an SJW affiliated PR firm 'trying to raise awareness', after being caught out because they too were utterly incompetent and left identifying information in their Apache server config. Though, of course, the antiGG crowd never mention those either. The 'Zoe Quinn incident' itself isn't the problem, it's just a symptom. A symptom of what exactly? I mean, it sounds like you're arguing that an assortment of pranks and like-minded op-eds amount to a vast media conspiracy to... protect Nathan Grayson? Protect the huge amount of money they were making from Depression Quest?? Oppress people who like the kind of games that already dominate the marketplace?? (And by "oppress," I mean, "say bad things about.") Just doesn't make any sense-- conspiracies don't form and hold together unless all the conspirators think there is something really important motivating them. Isn't it much simpler to assume that some publishers decided it was unwholesome (and potentially legally dangerous) to be in the business of promoting a jilted lover's story about an ex, that a few angry people did mean or dishonest things, that some writers came up with the same "hot take" response to the more extreme sexist threats, and that some hosting entities like 4chan and certain subreddits didn't want to be associated with said extreme threats? Enoch if you have time read this links, I know there is so much information out there about this event and everyone thinks " there articles are the most insightful " but one of these links is from a business website so its not from your standard gamer perspective http://www.businessinsider.com/gamergate-death-threats-2014-10 http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010

Not holding out much hope that will be good. I have the first two Dreamfall games on GOG, I should play them soon

To be fair, a lot of these 'journalists' don't. Alexander must have been beat up by some nerds or something, but aside from her they all seem to think themselves greater than they actually are. I'm not certain the whole glut of 'Gamers are dead' articles that launched around the same time were all misinterpreted either as a result of watching these people at play. I think GG was before that article, back when it was still hunting down corruption or whatever, but I may be mistaken. Fair enough, maybe some gaming journalists don't respect the people who ultimately give them a job and pay there salaries. I would just find it a strange business model if that was really common. It would be like me having a company that sells ice-cream and then making a statement on TV that "people who eat ice-cream are fat lazy degenerates " I can't imagine I'll be in business very long

No matter about going over something we have discussed before, we repeat things regularly on these forums My point around the agenda was more how people after reading that article then said " you see, this just highlights the absolute disdain gaming journalists have for us the gamers . We need to unite about this unacceptable behaviour ", and that was another reason for the success and foundation of GG But once again if the article was misinterpreted it makes another reason for the creation of GG moot? Now I'm not saying the article was reasonable, I can understand how it must have annoyed people but its not a reason to now say " gaming journalists have no respect for gamers "

Believe in transformation ? What new buzzphrase faith is this ? It was silly for Alexander to use it, because it isn't what she meant in her whiny diatribe, not to people taking her words to push an agenda. I'm not sure I get what you mean? If someone writes a scathing review on white, racist gamers and is really direct it wouldn't bother me because I'm a white gamer. I'm not a white, racist gamer But can you explain what you mean about the agenda part of your post ?

I don't know, maybe ask Gamespot how the rage impacted them when they haven't been relevant for years and why Jeff Gerstwinn's Wikipedia page is the second hit when you google them. The difference here is that back then, it was a dog eat dog world and the other publications ate them alive just as much as the gamers did. Now the damn place has cliquefied and there's just a lot of handholding and covering for your friends. I've seen this argument made before but it just doesn't hold water. Significantly larger amount of gamers raged out far, far worse than this over a reviewer standing in front of some mountain dew and doritos product placement. But nobody attacked all gamers as being responsible for those ridiculous fringe morons and nobody claimed credibility due to victimhood over it. Sorry TN but that's another fallacy about GG and its purpose and I know we don't agree on this one but it is important I raise this again All "gamers " weren't attacked, only gamers who didn't believe in transformation, I can guarantee you if you ask all the people on these forums if they felt the various articles written were about every single gamer there will be several people who will disagree with you and say "no I didn't think that applied to me" So its your own interpretation of the various events to say "all gamers were insulted and verbally attacked " Looking back now I do think it was silly to use the word " gamers" because of all the consternation it caused but it still doesn't change the fact it was taken out of context and used by some as an excuse to push a certain agenda and gain support for that agenda

Do you REALLY not understand what I just said? It's what GG stands for. The first part definitely. That's what nearly anyone would tell you, "this is about ethics". But obviously much of it has descended into a wider argument on gender politics and harassment. Okay thanks, I just wanted to be clear

My entire post (not just the tiny slip you quoted) states that it mustn't severely infringe on privacy, and threatening to shoot up schools (and doxxing for that matter) has jack **** to do with looking for corruption. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by you drawing what I said so severely out of proportion. Using any logic at all and not just tying unrelated stuff together, what the hell does doxxing and deaththreats have to do with looking into available information and looking for corruption? I think what he means is some people on GG claim there objective is tackle corruption but in fact they aren't concerned about corruption at all and have used the medium of GG to seriously harass people and basically engage in real bigotry and misogyny Yeah well that has absolutely nothing to do with my post or his post for that matter, if that's what he means, maybe he shouldn't go off trying to shove crap down my throat or apply my logic in nonsensical manners. It doesn't matter whether that's how he feels, it doesn't excuse such extreme levels of strawmanning me. The thing is he isn't really making a strawman Remember you said GG is about looking for corruption, this is a noble and reasonable objective. So maybe that's what you really believe GG is about and I don't doubt the veracity of your belief But GG has evolved for many of its members to something much more malicious and vindictive. So if someone says " GG is a good initiative because fighting corruption is good" its very easy to understand someone else saying " oh please with all the bigotry coming from GG how can you think that's what its really about or that justifies the conduct of some GG members " Anyway I'm not attacking you, I'm just explaining his perspective

hope you're joking man Well he is being Volo, which is always hard to determine when he is being serious, joking or trolling, You need to get to know him

I'll tell how to #stopgamergate2014: - Adopt/Clarify/Reinstate an ethics policy. Do so loudly in clear, plain, straightforward manner without any unnecessary ramblings about politics or internet toxicity. Do not include in this section the 5 paragraphs about misogyny, save that itch for another time. Commit clearly to avoid or disclose any conflicts of interest. Commit to objectivity and impartiality as best you can, leave the ridiculous ramblings and snark about your strawman views of the real world application of objectivity out of it. - Cover the the harassment and doxxing of the side you aren't covering in a proper article. Condemn it in the same terms you condemn all other harassment. Admit that if you expect gamergaters to own up to their crap you have to own up to yours or if these people don't speak for you neither do random bigots speak for most gamers. Again, clearly, plainly, loudly. Admit that any double standards and hypocrisy on the matter are unacceptable. - Apologise, without reservation, without any between the lines jabs or the aforementioned 5 paragraphs about misogyny, in a plain and straightforward manner, to anyone who took any articles or social media statement by any of the site's staff made about the "gamer identity" as an insulting stereotype imposed on their hobby and themselves. Do so loudly in a manner befitting the scale of GG and not in some vague tweet. I don't care if you think you're misunderstood, include whatever "we didn't mean it like that statements" but swallow your snobbish pride and do it. Even if you aren't Gamasutra and the like still make a statement and clarify your stance with a healthy measure of respect for video game players. - Comment on/condemn the alleged blacklisting of developers based on the views the site's journalists/editors disagree with. Commit to covering what the public shows interest in with a measure of balance. - Now talk about misogyny as a toxic fringe that poisons discussion that while should not be ignored also should not be an excuse or shield held against the majority at large. Here you can run wild to your hearts content in the thesaurus and compete in the use of the most ferocious and melodramatic adjectives of condemnation like, horrendous, sickening, depraved. But mention again how it's an issue on both sides because man there is been hilariously plentiful of dismissing women and minorities as "straight white guys" and being made fools of on the anti-GG side. And if anything is 'problematic' that qualifies also. Whoever is still left in GG afterwards we can then talk about labelling as a misogynist mob. But this isn't going to be stopped by snorting acid at GG. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean, are these point what GG stands for or for what #stopgamergate2014 stands for Because I want to know what GG stands for ?

Except what if that corruption doesn't exist? What if it only exists in your head because of your own prejudice? Then whoever is looking for corruption is wasting their own personal time, so who cares? So, using your own logic, it's okay to dox people, drive them from their home, and threaten to shoot up schools all in the name of "looking for corruption"? I mean, you cast a pretty wide net with your words. My entire post (not just the tiny slip you quoted) states that it mustn't severely infringe on privacy, and threatening to shoot up schools (and doxxing for that matter) has jack **** to do with looking for corruption. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by you drawing what I said so severely out of proportion. Using any logic at all and not just tying unrelated stuff together, what the hell does doxxing and deaththreats have to do with looking into available information and looking for corruption? I think what he means is some people on GG claim there objective is tackle corruption but in fact they aren't concerned about corruption at all and have used the medium of GG to seriously harass people and basically engage in real bigotry and misogyny

No gg came into existence because of the lack of journalistic integrity, and years of frustration over this, nobody cares about Ms Quinn's adultery but you. I'll try and make it very simple Bruce, though I don't know if i'll be successful: As a journalist you have a duty to inform the public objectively, without bias and following ethical guidelines as society regards journalism as an important function. Or used to due to Watergate and various other investigations. To be a journalist one must follow an ethical code, this is not mandated by me and I have no interest in it, to remain seperate from your subject, to diminish bias as much as possible, to report truthfully on your discoveries, and to neither make improper use of your position or give the appearance of such. By commiting adultery with a developer, his subject matter, Mr Grayson made an ethical mistake. This is not a problem until he failed to recuse himself from any professional dealings with her, or made sure that his editor knew that he had a significant conflict of interest between his private life and his duty to report objectively to his audience. He did neither and was caught out when this scandal aired, thus he is guilty of ethical misconduct, bringing his profession into disrepute and a blatant lack of ethics. This is not optional, it is the ethics covered when one achieves a journalism degree. He did not have to write anything about Ms Quinn or his adultery with her, the damage had allready been done. Read any paper on journalistic ethics or ask any professional, they'll agree with me, Mr Grayson gave not just the appearance of impropriety but the actuality. Sorry to the rest of the forum for having to repeat myself. Do you really consider the people who write reviews about games the same as a journalist who works for the example at the Economist? I can't believe you really believe that, anyone can write reviews about games Nonek. You just need a website and to have played the game. You are holding "gaming journalists " to far high a standard IMO But I'm not saying they mustn't have integrity or write interesting and relevant reviews , but lets not exaggerate what they do and what it means to be a " gaming journalist "

Like what? I mean, apart from "some person I've barely heard of said or did something dishonest or mean." I suppose we need more transparency around how gaming journalists review games? But I am not the best person to discuss the positive side of GG, there are plenty of other people who can give you that information

Bruce please link something better than that "this is a valid post and I urge you all to read it" hogwash, or you're never going to get taken seriously. Grayson is guilty of ethical misconduct, he did not have to write anything to be guilty of that, he is a game journalist who slept with a developer and did not recuse himself or declare a conflict of interest, this is childishly simple. Nobody is focused on Ms Quinn's adulteries and rapes, she hardly gets mentioned anymore. Its a pity you can't read the article and see that the foundation for the basis of the creation of GG is based on a false premise GG came to existence because of the perceived lack of journalist integrity, the common argument being " Zoe's game only did well because she slept with Grayson to get positive coverage" But if there relationship happened only after the game was reviewed and he never wrote the review what is the issue? And you can't seriously tell me that you have an issue if any person in the gaming industry has any kind of physical relationship with other people in the industry ?Why is there sex life such a concern to you? As long as it doesn't lead to some sort of corruption or favouritism, as this incident wasn't, its not really the business of anyone but the people involved ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134397896&postcount=12285 Nonek and others please read this link that Elerond posted and then comment about what you disagree with

It gets complicated and everyone will give you different responses depending on who you support. For me from a SJ perspective GG has given certain real bigots an opportunity to unite and basically vent there dislike of perceived changes that are coming to the gaming industry under the guise " we are doing it because the industry is corrupt and we are voice of real truth and reason " . Feminists and SJW are now the " enemy" . But of course GG has raised some valid concerns which I acknowledge and the people on these forums who support GG I consider moderates But GG won't achieve much as I've tried to explain, no reputable software publisher is going to publically align with GG because of extremist element within GG that continues to make controversial comments and attacks on people who don't support GG

I don't mind the questions. I think I'll need to sit down and think it through before giving a real answer. At the moment, I've had my hands full just surviving and ensuring that I also had a place to sleep the day after tomorrow and if nothing else, I've become an expert in public transport systems using everything from bus to s-bahn, u-Bahn, tram and train to a large number of suburbs (in all compass directions) where I've crashed for the night in hotels. In short, most of my contact with Berlin and its people has been colleagues, commuters and hotel staff. Not a sufficient demographical representation When you get time I am interested in the cultural differences, I have been to Berlin but that was on holiday on the way to skiing in Austria I imagine many things will be similar to Oz, they are both first world Western countries but there will obviously be some differences

Its not that you may be wrong Nonek, you are unquestionably wrong But on a serious note, I battle to take you seriously when you make suggestions like " there has been no harassment from the GG side " Almost everyone who has been following this debate knows there has been severe harassment on different levels from extremists from both sides. So please lets try to have this debate in the realm of relative accuracy ?

No the reason GG needs to shutdown is its utterly tainted. Its not going to achieve anything because of the extremist element that has hijacked its motives. Close it down and start some kind of group that can be regulated and raise the valid issues that you guys feel need to be raised You cant expect people who are influential in the gaming industry to support it because of the rampant bigotry displayed by some of the members of GG And no this doesn't mean I am saying you guys are bigots, I consider you moderate supporters of GG No. This would happen to absolutely any and all movements that go against the current social justice clique. it does not matter. They will always focus on the fringe that will always be present in any movement that is massively popular and paint everyone with the same taint through the power of their megaphones. A regulated group would change nothing the same way that the fact that the people who sent death threats don't even do it through the GG hashtag and it matters not. They will seek and find the supporters of your regulated group whom they can use to discredit you and pin them straight on you. Then demand you shut down because people are using your cause for harassment. Okay let me try to explain this a different way What is the objective of GG? Everyone can respond, give me the 2-3 main objectives that GG endeavors to achieve

No the reason GG needs to shutdown is its utterly tainted. Its not going to achieve anything because of the extremist element that has hijacked its motives. Close it down and start some kind of group that can be regulated and raise the valid issues that you guys feel need to be raised You cant expect people who are influential in the gaming industry to support it because of the rampant bigotry displayed by some of the members of GG And no this doesn't mean I am saying you guys are bigots, I consider you moderate supporters of GG

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/14/review-rpg-grimrock-sequel/ Legend of Grimrock 2 review. All I can say is " wowzers", it looks good And it appears harder than the first one

You keep saying this, OK I'll bite. Why does it not make sense for ISIS to cross the border? Th You keep saying this, OK I'll bite. Why does it not make sense for ISIS to cross the border? The main reason this is highly unlikely IMO is that ISIS is a group that is based in Syria and Iraq, they only get people joining them from Western countries. They aren't exporting there members yet because ISIS is actively involved in daily combat in those countries. It would be like saying the Taliban are going to cross the Mexican border into the USA, the Taliban are based in Afghanistan and Pakistan ISIS isn't like Al-Qaeda who has a nebulous and amorphous structure of cells around the world. For ISIS the current objective is to create a caliphate within Iraq and Syria. So they aren't concerned at the moment with directly attacking the USA. They just don't have the logistical structures to do this This may change if they are able to establish there own caliphate but this isn't going to happen so I really don't think ISIS fighters crossing into the USA is a likely outcome

I guess the question should be, is there one I haven't tried (Cobol, Algol and Fortran)? Past exploits covers LISP, Smalltalk, Pascal, C, C++, C#, VB, ASP, T-SQL, Forth. Various 8, 6, 16 and 32 bit assembly languages, Proprietary APL for various applications (E.g. Ingress and similar), a smattering of Java and probably a handful obscure things that I've forgotten about. These days, I mostly do ERP Systems for corporations (finance, order handling, point of sale systems, process/project control, manufacturing, supply chain, e-commerce, warehouse management etc.). As for reasons, it was work related (too many years in one place) I'm impressed,you are an experienced developer ( and I don't mean to dismiss people who know VB or HTML only ), C and C ++ are real building block languages. If someone knows them I consider them " hardcore " Good to know, how are you finding Berlin? What are the people like and the culture compared to Oz. Do you have friends there ? Sorry to inundate you with all these questions, I am just interested when people make these types of moves how they find it

I don't understand why that is an issue Monte If you think the game is worth it then invest the time, isn't your consideration the same for all games we might play ? But what if it's crap? Then I'll have to invest 100 more hours complaining about it on the internet- that'd be not just 100 but 200 hours wasted! Yeah that's a valid point