BruceVC

Just to be clear, because I'm obviously not American, now that the US government can monitor your communications why is this such a contentious point? It's an issue of privacy. The government shouldn't be able to monitor communications of citizens without court order(ie probable cause) in a free society. It's a bit bigger than that. Under the supreme law of the land they are not able to. It's a blatant and egregious violation of the 4th Amendment. It's not like this is the first one though, sadly far from it. At this point the U.S. Constitution is pretty much ignored by the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches on a regular basis. And the mainstream media not only lets just about all of it slide, it even often attempts to marginalize those who would speak out against these violations. Over the course of the 20th century the violations of the U.S. Constitution got worse and worse, but the violations since 2001 and what we're seeing more and more of all these years after are taking it to that level where some really really ugly sh*t is bound to happen, and a lot sooner than many think. We're really on the fast track to hell. Okay when you say the US is on a road to hell that's very dramatic, especially for an agnostic like me What is the future you are expecting in the next few years that will befall the USA? I want real outcomes of what could happen, and obviously we know these will be informed guesses....no one can foretell the future so you won't be held to what you say

I really expected you to respond in a more informative way TN....you are normally excellent at providing details and lengthy posts ? I am looking for just 3 examples where a SJ agenda has negatively impacted your gaming experience, so for example do you refuse to play Bioware games because of there recognition of gay Romance as you find it morally reprehensible ( this is an example but could really be applicable for some )

Volo can you post those video links and I'll watch them, I'm not sure what links you are referring to ? I'm sorry your niece was hurt, what happened?

Yeah its what I thought, I ask you to give me just 3 examples of how the SJ agenda has changed your gaming experience and you can't? It says something for this accusation that SJW are changing the gaming landscape I hope other people can give me examples of all this real " change " that SJW expect ...or rather concrete examples of how this change has been implemented

Just to be clear, because I'm obviously not American, now that the US government can monitor your communications why is this such a contentious point? It's an issue of privacy. The government shouldn't be able to monitor communications of citizens without court order(ie probable cause) in a free society. Okay, I see your concern. You are concerned with your privacy being infringed on. Makes sense, its not the fact you have something to hide or not hide...its more the principle

I enjoyed this post, some people may see this as a rant or someone venting around inevitable change that is coming to the gaming industry. But I see this rather as a honest assessment from someone about the gaming industry and who doesn't want to be seen as malicious but is genuinely concerned about the future. But you mustn't be worried Keyrock. I will repeat something's I have said in the past and hopefully this will alleviate your concern Firstly SJW aren't some monolithic and united organisation. There are radical elements within the movement and even though those are very vociferous voices I don't believe they are the majority. I would consider radical feminists in this group. So you shouldn't judge all SJW in the same way. This is an important point, you guys do throw around terms like " these SJW " fairly regularly as if we all have the same motives and objectives So lets talk GTA5 because that is the example you used, Lets say that Rockstar removes hookers from future games, how is this going to impact your gaming experience? Seriously ....I want to know? The reality is it won't because the implementation of hookers is such a small, but controversial, part of the game. Now if Rockstar also then decided that they would remove from there games any women because they bowed to some pressures that said " the killing of women is misogynistic " I would also object and say this is ridiculous. Because men and women get equally killed in games like GTA. This would be unacceptable censorship. But going back to the whole hooker incident you notice that there are no male hookers in the game so the whole issue of hookers in GTA is an unrealistic view of the sex industry and that's what I am objecting to. You also cannot say the gaming industry is on some slippery slope because unless we see all these perceived changes that are fundamentally changing our games I see this as rhetoric. So let me ask you and anyone else a simple question, can you give me 3 examples of where the SJ agenda has changed and diluted your gaming experience? Because all I see is loads of debate and issues been raised but games are still the same. Of course we see positive and accepted changes like Bioware and its inclusivity programs but this was driven from Bioware and is seen from most people as progressive. So what has changed in your view that is negative that is due to SJW?

Just to be clear, because I'm obviously not American, now that the US government can monitor your communications why is this such a contentious point? Are you worried people will suddenly just get arrested for no reason? What are you worried about ?

If your conduct is dictated by reciprocity, perhaps you should stop pretending you have standards, it's that simple. It's also pointless, the quote from GTA V that torture is for the torturer to have fun is pretty accurate thinking about it. Also, are you trying to imply torture has stopped any attacks ? We cannot say with absolute certainty that the advanced interrogation techniques did help prevent any attacks but we also can't say they didn't, so you are looking for a hypothetical answer I think you must know this ?

Nonek I don't like what you are insinuating

To be fair you guys obsess about many topics and basically all the time, this whole thread and the previous ones are testimony to that

Come on Kroney you are a reasonable and intelligent person, there are different degrees of torture Waterboarding is not as harsh as having hot boiling oil poured over your private parts

Interesting standards you hold. Also, why does it matter that we remember who we are fighting, exactly ? Funnily enough though, terrorists are probably operating under this kind of logic as well Because the West faces a brutal, intransigent and unforgiving enemy in the form of Islamic Fundamentalism. And because so many terrorist attacks have been foiled some of you guys forget what a threat they can be

No, it reasonably cannot. Unless you are thinking the kind of imprisonment or punishment that "accidentally" ends with prisoners almost drowning in a toilet, hitting themselves against the bars of their cells or being tasered "for their own protection", repeatedly. Did you even read the definition? Here, let me help you: They aren't even my definitions, they are the accepted international legal standards for torture (which the US is a signatory of, might I add). You think they are hyperbolic? Take it up with them and explain to them how being smacked around a bit and a little waterboarding here and there never killed nobody, and that only being stretched on the rack or having your eyes gouged out with a burning piece of metal are actual torture, because they tend to leave marks. In the next episode, we will discuss "mild" murder, "mild" rape, and "mild" crimes against humanity. Stay tuned! No 2133 I think you are being far too critical towards the USA You do realize that this report was brought forward for public scrutiny by the current administration because they know it was wrong You are just stating the obvious. I see very few people are giving credit to the Obama administration for being prepared to accept the inevitable condemnation that this report would bring. But they did it anyway...because they believe a true Democracy cannot condone or hide this type of behaviour

Okay I'm going to leave this debate now, I can't keep repeating my point and some of you seem to be intentionally not trying to understand what I'm trying to say But its very interesting so thanks for all the feedback, until the next debate

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ? You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process? The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused. This is the same spurious argument you guys keep making in the objection to my suggestion and that article Its a not a question of " creative process" because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game? How could that possibly effect your gaming experience, it baffles me all this resistance to a reasonable suggestion. So now the onus on you is to tell me why this would fundamentally change how you play GTA? All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience " And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore You still fail to comprehend that this is a question of freedom of expression. Are you that daft? It is not about the quality of the gaming experience, how can you not see that? You are actively trying to directly or indirectly control how an artist express themselves. Please go to China with your "sensibilities" and "reasonable" censorship and see how wonderfully it works when someone tries to control you, and most importantly your thoughts, in the name of everyone else. It is utterly unreasonable on every level unless you're a authoritarian. Polygon are simply completely despicable in this. I'm interested, because I'm obviously too stupid to grasp the nuances of this debate, how is having female hookers only an example of freedom of expression. What would a developer be expressing? Because freedom of expression must have some sort of symbolism or point. So what exactly is the point?

Yes they should be part of the stereotypical implementation of a crime world because as I mentioned several times the sex industry consists of male and female prostitutes Just because most of us think of female prostitutes when we think of hookers, and this is the natural reaction because of our sexual orientation, a stereotypical view of the sex industry and crime world would have both male and female hookers

Yes male prostitutes are part of the sex industry and if a particular country has made prostitution illegal than both male and female hookers could very easily be part of organised crime

They are just idiotic teenagers that can't see reality, but way to get excitement in their lives and rebel against authority that they don't like, usually for some petty reason. Similar idiocy born from naivety has always existed in people usually in teenagers. If those people would need brainwashing or some other effort to get them do idiotic things we would have much less problems in this world. Am I the only one who wasn't an ignorant, naive, and rebellious douche as a teenager? No you not, I wasn't particularly rebellious as a teenager I drank alcohol at the age of 17 but most people start before that

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ? It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored? Yes this is my argument in essence, I'm glad you understand it And I'll be honest I don't know how to respond when it comes to those games, because you could also go a killing spree in those games. So now are we suggesting we remove hookers from all games? I agree this doesn't sound practical because the implementation of hookers in F:NV made sense in the game world in the city of NV. But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic? The hookers in GTA were also realistic. Honestly, more so than F:NV. Also yes, the next logical step is to remove hookers in all games were you can kill them. Even that is just the beginning though. The slippery slop leads to much more than that. You see this is what is the real issue at hand, you guys think it is the beginning of a slippery slope Its not and doesn't have to be, I can think of two solutions Rockstar must include male hookers to mitigate this accusation of selective representation of the sex industry in there games Rockstar must just remove hookers completely If they go route two this does not mean anything else will change, unless someone else can give me an example of what else SJW will expect to change in GTA ?

'TF planet do you live on...? Don't get your point? If a development company says they are including hookers in the game because they want to add to the realism of a dark and grimy world I support that But to only include female hookers is contradicting what they want to achieve. NV had male and female hookers, it was realistic GTA only has female hookers, you cannot argue this is a realistic view of the sex trade?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Please, Bruce tell me, who will decide what is ok and what is not for game? PLEASE Its not my suggestion, I am merely supporting article that Malc posted

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ? It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored? Yes this is my argument in essence, I'm glad you understand it And I'll be honest I don't know how to respond when it comes to those games, because you could also go a killing spree in those games. So now are we suggesting we remove hookers from all games? I agree this doesn't sound practical because the implementation of hookers in F:NV made sense in the game world in the city of NV. But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

The scummy atmosphere is a major part of GTA's appeal. Take out the hookers and you lose the game's dark appeal to an extent. Really? I have played GTA extensively and I can't believe that will change the dark appeal of the game because the implementation of hookers is only on some streets and at night But I'm glad you have least responded with one possible reason how removing hookers will degrade the game because most people seem unable to do this and I've the question several times

Similarity is in the process of taking. There is no difference WHAT you take he implications are the same. No one talked the job is the same. The waiter and welder have different jobs, yet both say they hate their job and neither would tell their job is "fulfilling and rewarding ". Which was your point, that hookers don't like their job and are not proud of what they do. You said that this applies only to them, but in reality the same can be said about any job, which was my point. In that regard there is no difference between prostitution and any other occupation. You have misunderstood me completely, I'll explain it one more time The issue is not that hookers don't like there jobs in RL and that's why they should be removed from GTA. Many people don't like there jobs, that's not the point The point is hookers are victims by the nature of there job, there are very few other professions where this applies to And by allowing them to be killed in a game like GTA you are just making the overall reality of there situation worse.

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ? You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process? The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused. This is the same spurious argument you guys keep making in the objection to my suggestion and that article Its a not a question of " creative process" because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game? How could that possibly effect your gaming experience, it baffles me all this resistance to a reasonable suggestion. So now the onus on you is to tell me why this would fundamentally change how you play GTA? All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience " And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore