BruceVC

I agree with you that there are many examples of questionable examples of " bad Romance " But I think most promancers are not after the bad implementations of past Romance, like giving presents to gain affection and those awkward filmed scenes with party members in lingerie before you have sex with them We see Romance as a way to build a more memorable relationship with party members and to make the overall interaction with party members more immersive. Torment did a good job at making Romance more realistic and believable ?

Neither. We're talking about whether it's moral to advise somebody who has suicidal thoughts to kill themselves instead of seeking professional help first. For me its obvious, we have an absolute moral responsibility as a society to help people who suffer from mental ailments and to ensure they get professional help if they want to kill themselves. And this professional help should be mandatory if they refuse it because someone suffering from some sort of mental issue may not be in the best position to know what's best for them There is absolutely nothing moral about what you're saying here. In fact, it's quite evil. Evil..... How is getting people professional psychiatric help evil?

Okay but realistically who doesn't use Microsoft as the the foundation of there IT infrastructure ? How many companies do you know of that don't have a Microsoft desktop OS and use Active Directory? And I am talking about SME's here and not your 10 -100 user companies ?

Neither. We're talking about whether it's moral to advise somebody who has suicidal thoughts to kill themselves instead of seeking professional help first. For me its obvious, we have an absolute moral responsibility as a society to help people who suffer from mental ailments and to ensure they get professional help if they want to kill themselves. And this professional help should be mandatory if they refuse it because someone suffering from some sort of mental issue may not be in the best position to know what's best for them

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon ) Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have. I have never understood why people really choose Linux over Windows, my basic argument being " why change something that is interoperable and works " But I respect your decision to base your KS funding on support for multi-platforms Well that depends on what you use it for, as a software developer I've never seen the appeal of using Windows, the platform is just terrible for any development that isn't tied to the Microsoft ecosystem (I've done some of the latter as well and I'd argue that even then it's not great). So the only real reason I have to keep Windows around is to play games, it would be great if I wouldn't even need it for that anymore. Sure I understand that thinking, I work for a large software reseller and service provider. We sell and integrate software applications to various customers The software we sell normally has a client and server component. And yes the software is tied to the Microsoft ecosystem. But I would argue thats normal if you think of all the conveniences that come with Microsoft like Active Directory and Exchange. Most corporations have adopted the Microsoft ecosystem and it really works So why change what works and more importantly why take the risk of designing software that doesn't work on Microsoft and therefore limiting who your customer base could potentially be ?

Exactly, any component of a game can be implemented in a way that is juvenile. When we talk about Romance we are assuming that Obsidian has more than enough talent to do it properly ...or at least in a way that is not reminiscent to early Bioware type Romance like DA:O

Your reasoning is flawed. If there was only one race, people would be mad indeed. There are no romances and people aren't that mad at all. But you tell us that we should be, or pretend to be, for the sake of a flawed comparision... I'm not telling you personally what features in PoE should matter Its appears you are telling me that Romance doesn't matter. But this is just your view. There are many people that like and really appreciate Romance in RPG. And people shouldn't have to get mad to mean something is significant in a RPG. It could just be a suggestion, no need for anger. But it doesn't mean there suggestions aren't valid So in other words there are more people who want Romance in games like PoE than there are people who are opposed to them. You will see this when the many new fans of PoE start becoming active on these forums. This is something we need to recognize

I hear you but the same argument about other features that have been left out could be used and I doubt that would be acceptable So for example lets say Obsidian decided not to have different races in PoE that you choose in the beginning for your character. The argument from Obsidian could be " we only have one race to select for your character as we didn't see a need for it in the story" Most people and KS funders wouldn't be happy with this and would encourage Obsidian to change their view on this for a variety of reasons. The same consideration needs to be given to Romance

You make some good points and I appreciate the time you took to explain why you feel my original questions are not relevant in the broader context of the Danish efforts to integrate people into there society But you are also misunderstanding a few things. Firstly I am not fear mongering and raising concerns that aren't relevant or we should discuss. The Danes have implemented new "anti-terror " laws preciously because they have identified gaps with how they integrate new citizens and how they protect themselves from homegrown terrorists. So this is not my view when I say " Should Denmark relook at how they address extremism ", this is a direction that the Danish government is now following. So maybe we should take it a bit more seriously than " BruceVC contributing towards hyperbole and a knee-jerk reaction " This is an issue that European countries are currently dealing with. And the two most commonly asked questions are " how do we integrate people successfully into our culture " and " what do we do about citizens influenced by extremism ". I don't think the Danes are helping to contribute towards a culture of fear and anxiety but rather they have realized their previous endeavors to protect their citizens are lacking Also you say that the new anti-terror laws wouldn't have helped this type of attack, we cannot say that with certainty. For example this gunman could have had a social media presence and might have discussed on various forums what he intended. With proper monitoring of internet chatter the Danes would have been aware of this. Many terrorist attacks have been prevented by the fact that extremists are quite open on the Internet and this alerts local security services to their intentions. So the Danes are now investing in more enhanced information gathering around the Internet , this should make perfect sense to anyone ? So in summary if this was just a lone criminal acting without any ideological influence then I am sure the Danes wouldn't be changing legislation, so I think this attack represents something more serious that we should at least try to understand ?

Funny But you guys need to realize and accept that there will definitely be an element of new fans drawn to PoE who will expect Romance and question why it doesn't exist. We need to be welcoming around these types of discussions

I was impressed with Angry Joes opinion of PoE, it may have been uninformed around the history of CRPG but I don't think you need to have played CRPG to appreciate PoE He also helps increase visibility around the game to an audience that may not have ever heard of BG or IWD so I am very supportive of these types of reviews. He also seems like a really nice guy ( I just wish he wouldn't use so much profanity ) One thing is clear though, once the game is released there will a deluge of many new people who will coming to these forums who don't know much about the background and history of PoE. And they will come with a large number of suggestions and ideas that may not seem appropriate but we need to be patient around why PoE was designed a certain way. Remember we want the interest in PoE to grow and become a real option for developers and the best way to do this is to get the younger gamers interested Plus I imagine new gamers will also be interested in Romance so the promancer army will have many new recruits to spread the message

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon ) Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have. I have never understood why people really choose Linux over Windows, my basic argument being " why change something that is interoperable and works " But I respect your decision to base your KS funding on support for multi-platforms

That's crazy. Some nutcase goes berzerk and instead of improving the handling of nutcases they turn it into an act of *cough*racism*cough* terrorism. There is so much fantasy in this, including the other links in that article, that it's beginnning to sound like a script for a movie. Not sure why you think the plan is extreme or unreasonable ? They will be investing in things like intelligence gathering and making sure the police and security forces are better equipped and trained. Seems normal to me?

this made me laugh with its logic It is quite funny to think of people being accused of trolling but they were responding to a troll comment who in fact probably wasn't trolling but could have been... it potentially could go on and on ..

Yeah I don't think people are intentionally Trolling, I see people disagreeing with each other. This is not the same thing as Trolling Never thought you were so sensitive, I see this thread as normal debate? What did you think of the GG thread if you feel people are being rude to others on this thread?

Good thats all that matters, are you having fun? If you are then everything else is superfluous. Welcome to the world of " only judging games on whether they are fun "

You have raised some good points, IMO America has achieved better integration amongst its Muslim communities than many European countries Now that doesn't mean the USA isn't a victim of homegrown terrorism, we know they are. Its just that you don't seem to have these ghettos of people who are completely disillusioned with there country they now call home. And you may be right, in the USA it could be because people immigrating to the USA work harder to become citizens...so there is more value to that citizenship. So once again thats an interesting point

Because no matter how loathsome you and I may find an individual, those individuals sometimes still have a social network. Relatives, gang members, fellow inmates etc. I've got no illusions about there not being sympathisers who sees his actions as an outlet of their own anger and frustrations at the injustice of life. Some turn to gangs, some turn to hooliganism, some turn to drugs, and yes, some turn to ideological extremism. Yes, even a small place like Denmark has it's share of people who looks for something to blame for their misery, whether that misery is inflicted or self inflicted. Fair enough. So basically you are saying there will always be instances of this type of violence and there is no reason for the Danish government to rethink their policies around integration and dealing with homegrown extremism? In others words lets not " throw the baby out with the bath water "

This may be the exact truth, this was an incident of criminality and has nothing to do with ideology. Despite the fact he targeted members of the Jewish community this could just be how he was influenced What worries me is the support he still seems to have received from some sectors of community? How do you explain that ?

This is interesting personal insight from someone who lives in the region So do you think the Danish social model of real attempts at integration and understanding is the way to go, or do you feel if someone leaves a country to fight Jihad they then forfeit there European citizenship and if they return they could be arrrested and or refused entry? I feel that if you choose to join groups like ISIS then you need to realize you can't just come home when convenient. So I'm not sure I agree with the Danish approach which is very conciliatory and still attempts to bring people who have been possibly radicalised back into Danish culture? None of this has anything to do with the attacks that recently occurred in Denmark. The guy the authorities said did the act was born in Denmark. He never went overseas to fight for ISIS or anyone else. This is interesting personal insight from someone who lives in the region So do you think the Danish social model of real attempts at integration and understanding is the way to go, or do you feel if someone leaves a country to fight Jihad they then forfeit there European citizenship and if they return they could be arrrested and or refused entry? I feel that if you choose to join groups like ISIS then you need to realize you can't just come home when convenient. So I'm not sure I agree with the Danish approach which is very conciliatory and still attempts to bring people who have been possibly radicalised back into Danish culture? As other have already said, this guy has never been in Syria nor has he been fighting alongside ISIS. Just a local drug dealer turned nutso. What i find appaling is the local support he gets from his actions. Sounds like breeding ground for masochists, sociopaths and evil people in general. As long as they are around as a positive feedback loop, then terrorist attacks are here to stay as a cultural phenomenon. I am not explaining myself properly, I know this gunmen didn't fight for ISIS. This is just a talking point that highlights a broader issue around integration that European countries are grappling with The Danes for example believe in assimilating people back to Danish culture who return from Jihad, do you guys think this is an effective strategy?

No, I am really asking if the Danish method of integration works? If the objective is to prevent locals from being radicalised what methodology is best? I'm not saying the Danes are wrong because there is a valid point that this was a lone gunmen and this doesn't represent any possible terrorist attacks that Denmark may incur But yet if you read Meshuggers posts you will see that this gunman has received some widespread support from some of the Muslim community in Denmark, so it begs the question "has the Danish approach really been effective?" If you look at the French situation there attempts of integration with the Algerian community haven't been effective, you have these ghettos of Algerians who are disillusioned and feel outside French society. But that didn't appear to be the situation in Denmark. Yet you had this incident in Copenhagen, which could be attributed as an act of criminality and not ideology, yet you still see support for his actions? I have posted the link below so you can familiarize yourself, if you haven't already, with what I mean by the " Danish approach to homegrown extremism". Its a unique concept as far as I know http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/23/how-denmark-learnt-its-own-charlie-hebdo-moment-299065.html

This is interesting personal insight from someone who lives in the region So do you think the Danish social model of real attempts at integration and understanding is the way to go, or do you feel if someone leaves a country to fight Jihad they then forfeit there European citizenship and if they return they could be arrrested and or refused entry? I feel that if you choose to join groups like ISIS then you need to realize you can't just come home when convenient. So I'm not sure I agree with the Danish approach which is very conciliatory and still attempts to bring people who have been possibly radicalised back into Danish culture?

Thanks Vals, I appreciate your sincere support around my posts But this Danish attack is actually relevant because it leads to how effective integration is or isn't. In other words you can integrate people as much as possible but that still doesn't guarantee you won't face an attack, so now the Europeans are grappling with how they can reduce internal attacks from extremists and what is the best approach to this? Is heavy handedness the right way? Or the way the Danes have been dealing with it. That Newsweek link is particularly pertinent because it shows us just how far the Danes have gone to ensure people don't feel marginalized These are questions we all should be asking ourselves, how do we make immigrants feel truly part of a country and culture of a country . The objective being " if they feel integrated they wouldn't join a jihad and they definitely wouldn't attack the country that gave them a home " ?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/danish-police-kill-suspect-in-copenhagen-shootings-1423989155 This type of event is sadly not uncommon, last weekend Copenhagen was subjected to terror attacks by a lone gunmen with ideological sympathies to ISIS The gunman was killed but this incident raises an interesting question around how Denmark has been dealing with Islamic extremism and how they treat Danish fighters who leave Denmark to join groups like ISIS http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/23/how-denmark-learnt-its-own-charlie-hebdo-moment-299065.html Basically after the infamous Danish Cartoons of 2005 the Danes started a program of real integration for the Muslim community, probably more effective than any other European country. They even provide social workers and psychologists for returning Jihadists, very different to most other countries where citizens who leave to join terrorists organisations are monitored and are considered real threats to their home country Up to now Denmark has avoided homegrown terrorists attacking their own country but this latest incident has possibly changed this. Because the questions now I imagine being asked is "does being understanding and offering the carrot really work when addressing extremism"? So what do you think? Do the Danes with their methodology of reconciliation and integration provide the best system to reduce extremism? Or are they too soft and the French and British have a better way of dealing with internal terror threats where fighters who come back are considered real threats Maybe this was a one off incident in Denmark and the Danes need to stay the course? All opinions welcome and of course views from our Danish members especially welcome

Its interesting they have that view because the Baltic states are traditionally very anti-USSR and were very glad when Communism ended With Russia annexing parts of Ukraine the Baltic states have been very nervous and have been solidifying there support for NATO and the West, Obama has committed to stand by them against any Russia aggression. The thought of the Baltic states falling under the domain of Russia again is something which they consider anathema http://www.nytimes.com/video/multimedia/100000003089662/obama-affirms-rock-solid-support-for-baltic-states.html