BruceVC

When you say level do you mean rates of occurrence or just in terms of how bad it is ? If it's the latter, I'd hope hateful speech would be seen the same regardless of who's saying it. Funny enough I don't think it is, as I mentioned in South Africa as a white person we are subjected to hate speech from some groups. Things like "whites will driven to the sea and back to England ( its always England we come from remember ) and " one settler, one bullet " but I don't get hurt by it. Its more annoying because it comes from a silly and irrelevant perspective

Why even bother buying more than 1 game in your life then? It's gonna stay fresh forever. That's a good point, now if I could just remember what you are saying the next time I purchase a game

I must be misunderstanding, are you saying this type of event, which is clamping down on freedom of expression , is common in Western countries?

Can you imagine how many threads we would need if it was indeed a ballad

Good points, I hear you

- Joyce Chin, Marvel pencil artist and Asian-American woman. Okay that does seem unreasonable...good example of unfair SJ criticism How would you guys feel if all comic book characters just looked like stickmen...would you accept it

You seem mad ? Whats wrong...you want to discuss it ?

Well I have to say that's a new view on the limerick that I haven't heard before, he killed himself because he was transphobic I don't agree with it because it doesn't make sense. Generally people that demonstrate any form of bigotry like racism or sexism are fine with it because they have disdain for the minority group and feel superior. Why would someone kill themselves if they feel that way? I suppose its possible but unlikely in my experience

I'm currently on 478 hours and I haven't even left the first city, I suffer from acute amnesia in RL but I love reading about lore in any RPG so I logon to play the game, start reading all and every book...then logoff ...then logon again later ...forget that I have in fact read all the books and start reading them all again...logoff again.... and the whole cycle starts again.. I suppose you could argue this has its benefits as I get maximum value from any game

That's fine, no one is forcing you to back any future KS from Obsidian or higher-tiers. This is your prerogative. Changes in some gaming components are generally inevitable so my advice is just accept this will happen on certain levels But you seem to me misunderstand the offense, no-one really has an issue with the guy killing himself. That was his choice, the issue is why he did it. And he did to because he was so ashamed. And why was he ashamed? Not because he was a pedophile or serial killer...that you can understand. He did because he had sex with a women who he lately realized use to be a man. Imagine how members of the transgender community feel knowing that someone is prepared to kill themselves just because they had sex with them The limerick was insensitive and callous and deserved to be edited

Yeah, it was annoying to see only one example. I guess they wanted to keep it American. But you could easily put that in other contexts and see how it transfers. You're less of a cynic than I. I really thought you were going to give me an irrefutable example of how "I make assumptions about groups of people ", in fact I have asked for evidence of that several times and I haven't one valid response. This is no different I have explained several times now that what I meant is I don't make assumptions like " all Russians are homophobic " or " all Americans are warmongers " In your apparently " glaring " example of me doing this you are saying this is not true because I used the words " am sure we will now hear " but I also said the words " most straight people " ...the operative word being "most "..that is not the same thing as me saying " all straight people " And if I say I think person x is a bigot that is not the same thing as me saying " all people who said this are bigots " The funny thing is I have no issue with you actually proving me wrong, so I encourage you to go back and read all my posts and give me a real example of where I said " all people are xxx or all people are yyy" So I still have no idea why you say something got stuck in your throat because I see no contradiction in my posts? Ooo ... kay, I'm not quite sure whether to simply shake my head at this point or if I would be better served by slowly backing away with no sudden movements. ... I mean seriously, I literally spelled the reason your reaction bothered me for everyone to see and you come back with "Please explain why you are bothered by my post." As for making assumptions and since this thread is starting to drift away from baselessly people of being homophobic to racism I'll ask a simple question; since it's apparently fine to make assumptions provided that we preface them with the disclaimer of "I only meant most and not all." Does that make the statement; "You must be one of the good ones." any less offensive to my Mick ancestors when they were being discrimated against because of their country of origin and religion? What about the other minority groups who had that statement thrown into their faces, perhaps most notably and recently against black people. ---- Oh, and since no-one offered to take me up on my joke in the other thread I'll provide the punchline at this time ... "a sixpack and a potato". I am not sure you and I are even on the same page anymore with this debate I am challenging the notion that you said " I make assumptions about groups of people " If you arent saying that now then I'm not sure what we are debating. If you are saying you still found my comment to be offensive thats fine, I am not going to presume to tell you how you should interpret my posts. Sorry if you assumed I was necessarily talking about you but I have idea how your parents treated you so I can't say if you were included in the point earlier I made where I basically said " most straight people haven't had there parents tell them they wish they had been aborted " ...if your parents did say that to you then you have my sincere condolences because as I said to Mungri that's cruel and unfair If that's not what you talking about then I still don't understand exactly what I said that caused something to get stuck in your throat because I am missing how what I said to Mungri is relevant to my self-importance ....that the bit I really don't get And yes you are correct, to say to some ethnic group " you must be one of the good ones " is offensive and patronizing but once again that's not what I said or meant. And I don't know how many times I can keep explaining this *sighs* Look, I'm very nearly convinced that you are being purposefully obtuse and seeing how long you can go before I simply throw up my hands in frustration and walk away. If so then congrats are in order, you are very nearly, but not quite there. So let's try this one last time; I understand that you moved the goalposts from chiding FaustianEchoes with " No, the funny thing is I am not really like you at all. I don't make assumptions about groups of people unless they actually say or do something that warrants criticism. " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1657861 ) to " I don't say things like " all Russians are homophobic " despite homophobic laws being passed in Russia or I wouldn't say " all Americans are arrogant warmongers " despite America under Bush being very militant around foreign policy " and finishing with " I respond directly to what people say or how they act " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1657925 ) However the bottom line is that you do in fact make assumptions about groups of people to the point of dismissingly throwing out this gem; " and I'm sure we will now hear comments like " oh so now only gay people have a monopoly on there parents treating them badly..my parents did this to me and my parents did that " " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1656293 ). That is not a point that I'm willing to let slide as I view grouping people via ideologies far more important than mere geographical locations. As for my visceral reaction to your post towards Mungri ... you are missing the point by assuming that it must somehow be about me or my past at all. Hells, I don't know Mungri from Adam (He seems like a pretty cool guy though.) but my reading of your original post ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1656293 ) was more about you trying to use his story simply as a springboard in advancing your own cause, with a little anecdotal quip thrown in about how shocking one of your friends was treated by his mother for coming out as gay, not to mention getting in a jab at the people you disagree with in this very thread. I suppose it's possible that you didn't mean it the way it read to me, but when combined with posts where you claim that it's impossible for a "defender of gay rights" to be a bigot ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1655894 ) I'm not so sure. My intention is not to frustrate you to the point of walking away, I apologize if that is how it seems I am enjoying this debate and it would be pointless if the result of this was that you felt you didn't want to debate with me. I dont think either of us has been personal and I have to say I appreciate the time you have taken to go back and read my previous posts I did misunderstand you, I am a software consultant for a living and sometimes I see certain discussions as 1 and 0 so I tend to take what people say literally. So I have been focusing only on the point where you were challenging my comment " I don't make assumptions about groups of people " But after reading your last paragraph I see now what you mean. You had issues with other things I said like suggesting that people who support SJ cant be bigots themselves. And you right, they can be. This whole debate is much more nuanced than saying only one group is noble and righteous and the other group is just plain wrong Anyway I only mentioned that true story about my gay friend because I was expressing empathy with Mungri and letting him know that he was't the only person who has been treated badly by his parents because he is gay. But I can see how it also came across as an attack on straight people. That wasn't my intention so that was bad form on my part But thanks for explaining your perspective in detail and I'll work on making my points in a way that also doesn't come across as making sweeping statements or making me seem like a hypocrite

Sounds good, we must all use this thread to update each other on our progress in the game and when we ready for the online part of the game

I hate you so much right now. I didn't expect you to actually acknowledge your mistake, so now I feel like I should apologise for being cranky at you. Sorry. Namutree is actually a very reasonable person, he is not someone who will debate just for sake of debating and never accept he is wrong. He is also not vindictive or malicious during debates and to be honest I don't think I can recall a time where he has become personal or really angry. Rare character traits for a heated forum debate considering how most of us take these topics seriously so naturally we tend to get emotional

Of course, join us. The more the merrier Bokishi you seem to have the most knowledge of how the online component works, are there global servers that people share or specific servers for regions? I'll be playing the online part of GTAV once I have completed the single-player part so I won't be online for at least a month

My understanding is it is very regional. The white people are all in the western part of the country. No we live all over South Africa and we are dominant in the economic sector but there are valid reasons for this. However I don't want to hijack this discussion with a debate about the social and economic reality of South Africa

I think he was only speaking about countries which are white majority. Once you venture into areas with different dominant ethnic groups things are different. Of course South Africa also has that history that makes things more complicated than say, in Thailand or something. Fair enough, South Africa is probably a bad example because you could say due to our past its not surprising some black people are racist..or at least come across like that

Really? That's a rather...bold claim. I'm looking forward to your proof that everyone in the world is, in fact, guilty of some form of racism. Come now Amentep, don't play the old " well prove that everyone in the world is racist " card ...its intellectually dishonest If that was how we disputed a point we would never go anywhere ever with our debates. You know what he meant

No. I'm saying that trying to put these forms of racism on the same level is absolutely absurd. And it's pathetic some white people try to highjack these discussions by saying "but white people face racism too!!!". No, you don't. One group, the white people, can basically shrug it off and get on with their lives. For other groups, it is a large part of their life they simply cannot ignore, in a way, it is their life. (p.s. as might be obvious by now, English is not my native language. It's not even my second language, so that might cause some difficulties... For those that wonder: I'm Dutch. And purely from a technical standpoint, Dutch isn't even my native language. I speak a fringe minority language at home ) I need to add something important here, I agree with most of what you say but I'm not sure that I agree that white people can't be victims of racism by black people. I am a white South African who lives in South Africa and I tell you with absolute certainty that there are some black people in South Africa who are definitely racist towards us. Yes it is shaped by the past, they are bitter for a variety of reasons that include the fact that they haven't achieved economic success in the new South Africa, in fact there is a racist slogan that says "one settler, one bullet "which really translates to " kill the white people " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Settler,_One_Bullet This is still used today and is considered hate speech in South Africa and people can face legal prosecution for saying this But I agree the racism we experience is not this deep and implacable racism that some black people have faced for generations and is more caused by frustration, however it does manifest itself as bigotry. Its more annoying than anything else but its still a form a racism and this shouldn't be denied ?

I really thought you were going to give me an irrefutable example of how "I make assumptions about groups of people ", in fact I have asked for evidence of that several times and I haven't one valid response. This is no different I have explained several times now that what I meant is I don't make assumptions like " all Russians are homophobic " or " all Americans are warmongers " In your apparently " glaring " example of me doing this you are saying this is not true because I used the words " am sure we will now hear " but I also said the words " most straight people " ...the operative word being "most "..that is not the same thing as me saying " all straight people " And if I say I think person x is a bigot that is not the same thing as me saying " all people who said this are bigots " The funny thing is I have no issue with you actually proving me wrong, so I encourage you to go back and read all my posts and give me a real example of where I said " all people are xxx or all people are yyy" So I still have no idea why you say something got stuck in your throat because I see no contradiction in my posts? Ooo ... kay, I'm not quite sure whether to simply shake my head at this point or if I would be better served by slowly backing away with no sudden movements. ... I mean seriously, I literally spelled the reason your reaction bothered me for everyone to see and you come back with "Please explain why you are bothered by my post." As for making assumptions and since this thread is starting to drift away from baselessly people of being homophobic to racism I'll ask a simple question; since it's apparently fine to make assumptions provided that we preface them with the disclaimer of "I only meant most and not all." Does that make the statement; "You must be one of the good ones." any less offensive to my Mick ancestors when they were being discrimated against because of their country of origin and religion? What about the other minority groups who had that statement thrown into their faces, perhaps most notably and recently against black people. ---- Oh, and since no-one offered to take me up on my joke in the other thread I'll provide the punchline at this time ... "a sixpack and a potato". I am not sure you and I are even on the same page anymore with this debate I am challenging the notion that you said " I make assumptions about groups of people " If you arent saying that now then I'm not sure what we are debating. If you are saying you still found my comment to be offensive thats fine, I am not going to presume to tell you how you should interpret my posts. Sorry if you assumed I was necessarily talking about you but I have idea how your parents treated you so I can't say if you were included in the point earlier I made where I basically said " most straight people haven't had there parents tell them they wish they had been aborted " ...if your parents did say that to you then you have my sincere condolences because as I said to Mungri that's cruel and unfair If that's not what you talking about then I still don't understand exactly what I said that caused something to get stuck in your throat because I am missing how what I said to Mungri is relevant to my self-importance ....that the bit I really don't get And yes you are correct, to say to some ethnic group " you must be one of the good ones " is offensive and patronizing but once again that's not what I said or meant. And I don't know how many times I can keep explaining this

Yeah I saw this on another website, its just example of the Putin regime clamping down on freedom of speech and expression in Russia

That is correct Afrikaans and it is different to Dutch on certain levels How would you say that in Dutch?

I really thought you were going to give me an irrefutable example of how "I make assumptions about groups of people ", in fact I have asked for evidence of that several times and I haven't one valid response. This is no different I have explained several times now that what I meant is I don't make assumptions like " all Russians are homophobic " or " all Americans are warmongers " In your apparently " glaring " example of me doing this you are saying this is not true because I used the words " am sure we will now hear " but I also said the words " most straight people " ...the operative word being "most "..that is not the same thing as me saying " all straight people " And if I say I think person x is a bigot that is not the same thing as me saying " all people who said this are bigots " The funny thing is I have no issue with you actually proving me wrong, so I encourage you to go back and read all my posts and give me a real example of where I said " all people are xxx or all people are yyy" So I still have no idea why you say something got stuck in your throat because I see no contradiction in my posts?

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself, Cape Town is awesome. I am flying back to Joburg tomorrow night South African girls are good fun, its great you had an opportunity to party...I looooove Tequila

So, you're saying a fictional character in a fictional game isn't even fictionally free to prefer fictional women to fictional men. . I'll just repeat what has been repeated probably a million times by now, it's trans-misogynistic because it unfairly maligns an already historically-oppressed group, because it has absolutely no context other than to offend, that somehow, a "genetic" woman turned into a man is somehow shameful. This is in essence is what the issue is for me, the person kills himself because he had sex with a transgender person. She would have looked like a women and had the physical characteristics of women so she would have had a vagina so the actual act of sex would have been normal but then the guy suddenly finds out that she use to be a man and suddenly the mental image is enough for him to kill himself because of the " shame" But he had no issue during the sex, so of course it is offensive How would any heterosexual male feel if a women killed herself after having sex with you ? How would you not be offended that just the physical act of consensual sex with you was enough to warrant suicide ?