BruceVC

I have to ask why some one of such religious conviction would work for a secular institution like government. It's like a devout Muslim becoming a bartender and being like, "I can't believe I have to hand out alcoholic drinks!" Yes as usual you ask pertinent questions. But she has been proved to be a fake ...and Volo wants us to feel sorry for her. Do you think I should ....maybe I'm being unreasonable. You will be honest ?

Pizza tonight : Double Cheese, bacon, ham, salami, jalapenos , mushrooms, garlic , banana, and tomato

Bruce the federal government CAUSED that crisis. At least here in the US it did. It cause it back in 1977, 1980, 1998 and 2002. No they didnt Not the 2008 crisis, yes Clinton insisted on home loans for everyone but this wouldn't have been an issue if people had been able to pay back there loans and we cannot ignore the lack of regulation and toxic debts that the various financial institutions were engaged in. Yes the loans were a contributing factor but it wasn't the only factor In fact a major criticism was not enough SEC monitoring of the private banks.... Not Clinton, Carter. It started with Carter and the Community Reinvestment Act which forced lenders to make high risk loans to unqualified borrowers. It also stems from the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980 which was the first step in the repeal of the Glass-Stengal Act which was designed to PREVENT the very things that happened in 1929, 1987, 2008 from happening. Clinton revised the CRA in the 1990's further exposing lenders to risk of defaults by limiting interest controls and also set up Fannie Mae as a lender "safety net". In 1998 the Gramm-Leach-Biely Act eliminated the last of Glass Stengals depository banking protections and allowed banks to merge and spread risk of any aspect of the business to all aspects of the business. In 2002 the CR was revised again and in 2008 the inevitable happened. And since banks were heavily leveraged in real estate and all aspects of the banking business were now under one roof (thank you Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Phil Gramm) the failure of the real estate ventures snowballs into the failure of the whole bank, The problem with government is that it does not attract the best and the brightest. They all go into business and make real money. Government attracts the C students, the ones who could not cut it in the real world. And they are vain, venal, short sighted and have only the most fleeting of understanding of what they are doing and the systems they are messing with. Every step I outlined above was small and probably well intentioned and without them we would not have had the economic boom of the 1990s and early 2000's. But doing so only proves that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Okay well to be honest I only know the official history that the US government talks about and that goes back to Clinton and his desire for every American to have a home But I work in the financial sector and this has been studied extensively because the whole world was close to a depression. I watched an interview with Lloyd Blankfein CEO of Goldman Sachs about the penalties and fines most of the investment and commercial banks have paid, check this link http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/08/big-bank-fines-total_n_5659317.html http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-123.htm Goldman Sachs has very few fines despite what you may think, anyway he was quite clear that there is no such thing as a true Capitalist country and he acknowledged government regulation and monitoring going forward. And he is a Jewish American Capitalist and a real financial genius. So if he can admit government interference then you can

Good, now I am beginning to understand why you make these comments. And I'm stoned so I'm not necessarily my clever self You feel guilty, thats exactly what I wanted. Yes it was a good post ...so now rather just accept it. No need for your normal " I don't want to change my mind cause I'm Volo and I don't like to be like everyone else. Look everyone, I use the word Nazi indiscriminately" ...you see its too radical to be real, I'm not even going to pretend to believe you like I normally do

Bruce the federal government CAUSED that crisis. At least here in the US it did. It cause it back in 1977, 1980, 1998 and 2002. No they didnt Not the 2008 crisis, yes Clinton insisted on home loans for everyone but this wouldn't have been an issue if people had been able to pay back there loans and we cannot ignore the lack of regulation and toxic debts that the various financial institutions were engaged in. Yes the loans were a contributing factor but it wasn't the only factor In fact a major criticism was not enough SEC monitoring of the private banks....

How ironic is this but they are discussing this exact topic on one of radio show I listen to. I phoned in and said how we have been discussing it Of course some people phoned in to say its a betrayal of Christianity but the radio station is pro gay rights so I dont care what they say, I made my point in a very supportive way

Well played Shady, don't feel embarrassed about taking my advice. You are making the right decision about going Democrat. I can understand GD point about Federal interference but surly after events like the 2008 Financial Crisis this view should be moot and not a big deal But end of the day I know many Americans do see too much Federal interference as bad thing. Its not something I can really understand but I respect that view

You funny, I enjoy our little debates but to be honest I generally don't spend time writing long posts with you because of your habit of never seeming to understand logic. And I'm not sure if its a defensive mechanism or real intransigence and I don't feel the need to go further because I'm happy with the level of debate we have. I like you but I dont need to understand what really motivates you Anyway this post is also for other people on this thread because what has been great about these forums is everyone is basically happy with this decision and supports my general view that refusing to issue the license is wrong. But I'm not sure how many of you guys have spent time with gay people and really understood some of the social issues they grapple with so my explanation I hope is informative So to understand why I am not concerned with her being teased its because of what she did. In life there is always the interminable flow of cause and effect, this cannot be avoided and is inexorable whether a person likes it or not . And to understand that the point lies in the whole issue of gay people not being allowed to be married and how this is a form of discrimination So I remember 13 years ago I was watching Jerry Springer and there was this gay couple and the one gay guy said " one day when our great country allows gay marriage " and the whole crowd started booing ...and that was the first time I remember thinking " wow the USA doesn't allow gay marriage...thats weird " Now think about the life of gay Americans over the last 30 years, being American but sometimes having to lie about your sexual orientation, being a part of the system, paying tax ,voting and even when it was okay to be gay there was still one thing that was always denied to you ..being able to be marrried Now I know what you thinking Volo " who wants to get married " ? ..I agree but for many gay people this became the holy grail of acceptance. This would be the one thing that defined there identity. So even though gay people lived and flourished in the USA something was always missing...something that also represented true commitment So take some time to consider this. Straight people can never understand how humiliating and degrading this would have been. It must have been unbelievably painful to live in the greatest Democracy in the world with all this success yet always feel on the outside for a reason you cannot control Then the change started and some states started allowing it, the average American started becoming more open minded, proposition 8 was won and Obama became supportive. But for some gay people they lived in states that refused to allow it and then the Supreme Court made the landmark ruling and suddenly all states had to correctly allow it I consider this the most significant event since Civil Rights movement, thousands of gay people subsequently got married in the USA and finally could feel truly American. Then Davis decided against all this historic fanfare to refuse to issues licenses, despite the fact this was a national precedent and that she knew people would be coming to ask for something they had never received before....no this made no difference to her. Where was her basic humanity...where was her sense of empathy? Can a person really work in a court like this and not consider what would happen when gay people arrived? You ask me to say " she musn't get bullied " ...seriously ? So she should be extended courtesies that she refused to extend to others...thats okay Volo you can believe in double standards but I won't And then gay couples did arrive at the court and she refused to issue licenses, in fact she refused one couple 4 times. How do you think they felt, do you think they felt bullied and humiliated? You don't think a lifetime of this was enough? No I feel nothing for her ...she felt nothing for how she treated others

Bullying is not nearly as bad as what she did But we dont have to call it bullying if that word offends. Lets say public ridicule...I asume you are happy with that? And please tell me you are because if not I'll be compelled to explain in further detail and my next response will be longer But if I don't have to explain further I won't

Nonek I must apologize for some of the arguments we use to have, I have basically explained to everyone that I was mistaken with my initial view of why I thought you guys supported GG. But I have also made some personal apologies yet I haven't to you I won't lie I did use to be particularly disappointed with your stance on GG as I did expect you to " know better " due to your life experience and its clear the younger members look up to you and in my experiences of having SJ discussions and debates someone like you is always the hardest one to convince ...as if you don't now by now you never will know. But as I mentioned I was mistaken in my view so don't see this as criticism Also you annoyed me when you kept bringing up the strip clubs as me being a hypocrite ...and I am well aware of that accusation but its just not valid but I still didn't like it Anyway this lead to some silly and personal debates and I did use to provoke you at times I actually had people PM me and say " wow there is really bad blood between you and Nonek, you guys need to sort it out " but of course I thought you were a bigot and didn't care. Anyway sorry for the accusations I made towards you and anything I might have said that was personal

Yeah, I actually find this internet disparaging of Davis through social media and memes to be in bad taste. I disagree with her and believe she should face the consequences of her (in)action, but this is still bullying. It will pass, the same sex marriage bill has global ramifications and is something that has ended decades of discrimination against the LGBT community.....it really was historical and important for the USA Davis decided to try to undermine this because she is a bigot and played the religious card to increase sympathy ...she deserves this " bullying " Nobody really deserves bullying, IMO. That said I'm not sure what she's getting is "bullying" so much as "public scorn". I suppose from her perspective it might feel like bullying, so I guess the situations a bit hazy. Yeah, thats why I said " bullying " ...its not bullying, this is the expected response But seriously how much sympathy can you really have...you can't tell me any person in the USA wouldn't be aware of how historical this was? And if a person really was that unaware then the good news is they should be able to move on quickly as they have the ability to not really think too much.

You see your Dutch have no more boundaries or restrictions so you just don't get it ...everything is " old news " to you How are your sisters by the way ?

Yeah, I actually find this internet disparaging of Davis through social media and memes to be in bad taste. I disagree with her and believe she should face the consequences of her (in)action, but this is still bullying. It will pass, the same sex marriage bill has global ramifications and is something that has ended decades of discrimination against the LGBT community.....it really was historical and important for the USA Davis decided to try to undermine this because she is a bigot and played the religious card to increase sympathy ...she deserves this " bullying "

I must mention something that always interests me about you Americans and how even though we are very similar on our views on Democracies we differ on the principle of "offensive free speech " and how I believe certain speech needs to be banned in the interest of social harmony yet all you guys unequivocally support free speech. I admire this but just dont get it, like that offensive prophet Mohammed art museum that you guys didn't support yet said it had a right to be open But I defend America in debates on the radio, I get great pleasure in disputing this absurd and utterly baseless attacks on the USA from certain people in my country. You guys won't believe some of the nonsense people phone in and make a comment on...even today a guy phones in and says " its the Americans fault all the Syrians are leaving to get into Europe because the Americans started the war in Syria. And America loves bombing everything like the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Americans just want to bomb everyone" ...and then one my personal favorites " The CIA created ISIS to destabilize the ME and give them another excuse to invade again because the USA needs oil " And yes the people who make these comments are grown men but are really not very bright. And with my accurate knowledge of the region and history its not very hard to dispute what they saying...I always try to correct them in a polite way as I dont want to seem arrogant But the thing is everything I say can be proved and is on the Internet so it boggles the mind why people just don't do research

I'm ****stirring you Bruce. (although I obviously still support those positions) Okay but you could have been serious because my posts do get misunderstood and certain people on these forums I do care what they think about me. You are one of them so I prefer to explain so there is no confusion

@ GD and others You guys realize its Republicans who would be making the whole spurious Rosa Parks analogy....its an insult to your intelligence. They are basically suggesting you guys are rednecks who live in the wild and aren't as informed as " us city folk " This would be a good and understandable time to switch to Democrats and Hilary...no one will judge you Bruce, speaking as a democrat -- albeit with fascist tendencies -- there are Republicans who absolutely get it, and Democrats that are plain morons. The problem with today's political climate in America is that the loud voices tend to drown out those who are willing pragmatists. I personally have no problem with most Republicans I know --hell I'm very good friends and even related to many of them. Unfortunately, good sense has been hijacked by partisan rhetoric and irresponsible governance. Debate is good. Discourse is good. I want good, responsible Republicans and Democrats actually working together to form a working government. I would vote for another Eisenhower or George H.W. Bush. I would've even been tempted by Jon Huntsman had he won the Republican primary in 2012. Yes I know not all Republicans are bad, as I mentioned all the Americans I work with are Republicans. I would never judge a person on the party he supports ....that would be a very myopic way of looking at people For me I judge people on there actual views and actions....for example someone who was a racist or shows homophobia. This " criticism " of mine towards the Republicans is just politics, its not personal. But I do want the Democrats to win as I want the Obama policies to continue as they have been very good for the USA ..so I would love for someone like GD to vote Democrats so he isn't disappointed when they win...I like him

I am technically of native descent. That said that's still obviously a silly solution. There's a bit of a gap between accepting the material consequences of industrial development and Bruce's deliberate downplaying of historical events that still have residual effects today. No Baro you are still misunderstanding me, I use to think it was just people not using there common sense when they kept not understanding me but I know you bright so its obviously me not explaining properly Of course that photo you posted and what the UK did in Australia around slavery was appalling and reprehensible. But I think all slavery the UK was involved in was like that. I thought when I said that you would assume that included Oz By the way I was just teasing Volo when I brought up the superiority of the UK, it would demonstrate a real level of ignorance and hubris if a person said " the UK brought tea to the world and yet gets blamed for Colonialism" ....you can never ignore all the negative consequences of what the early Colonialists did. That is exactly why the Europeans don't exactly go on about there lost empires because we are all aware how they were built on human suffering of others I do believe the West has evolved into the best system of governments and ideology and we do have the happiest citizens in the world. I can understand how you thought I was being serious, I apologize for the misunderstanding

@ GD and others You guys realize its Republicans who would be making the whole spurious Rosa Parks analogy....its an insult to your intelligence. They are basically suggesting you guys are rednecks who live in the wild and aren't as informed as " us city folk " This would be a good and understandable time to switch to Democrats and Hilary...no one will judge you

No dude thats not asking for advice ...thats understanding your limitations and is considered a good character trait. Especially in business well the point was that asking a profesional is always better than trying to tangle with something you dont know by yourself Yes you right

I'm sorry another weird person Nothing physical or visual irritates me...but I tend to over-analyze things which can be vexing in its own way

Its good to be different ...I am very different, eccentric actually

Sure, I believe you but I was being honest when I said thats not the normal response

Heretic. That's weird actually ..I try not to sound rude to people on forums but not liking the feeling of paper goes against everything that people say about this topic . People who are traditional readers always prefer the tactile experience of a book but we all use eBooks for convenient sake

No dude thats not asking for advice ...thats understanding your limitations and is considered a good character trait. Especially in business

What annoys me more and,remember I really support SJ causes,is I thought in the beginning she was doing this because she was truly religious and I had sympathy for that But I'm sorry after seeing her marriage record I have now realized she cannot be a person of that much real conviction ...and it annoys me that she delayed the process that long