BruceVC

Well played Shady, don't feel embarrassed about taking my advice. You are making the right decision about going Democrat. I can understand GD point about Federal interference but surly after events like the 2008 Financial Crisis this view should be moot and not a big deal But end of the day I know many Americans do see too much Federal interference as bad thing. Its not something I can really understand but I respect that view

You funny, I enjoy our little debates but to be honest I generally don't spend time writing long posts with you because of your habit of never seeming to understand logic. And I'm not sure if its a defensive mechanism or real intransigence and I don't feel the need to go further because I'm happy with the level of debate we have. I like you but I dont need to understand what really motivates you Anyway this post is also for other people on this thread because what has been great about these forums is everyone is basically happy with this decision and supports my general view that refusing to issue the license is wrong. But I'm not sure how many of you guys have spent time with gay people and really understood some of the social issues they grapple with so my explanation I hope is informative So to understand why I am not concerned with her being teased its because of what she did. In life there is always the interminable flow of cause and effect, this cannot be avoided and is inexorable whether a person likes it or not . And to understand that the point lies in the whole issue of gay people not being allowed to be married and how this is a form of discrimination So I remember 13 years ago I was watching Jerry Springer and there was this gay couple and the one gay guy said " one day when our great country allows gay marriage " and the whole crowd started booing ...and that was the first time I remember thinking " wow the USA doesn't allow gay marriage...thats weird " Now think about the life of gay Americans over the last 30 years, being American but sometimes having to lie about your sexual orientation, being a part of the system, paying tax ,voting and even when it was okay to be gay there was still one thing that was always denied to you ..being able to be marrried Now I know what you thinking Volo " who wants to get married " ? ..I agree but for many gay people this became the holy grail of acceptance. This would be the one thing that defined there identity. So even though gay people lived and flourished in the USA something was always missing...something that also represented true commitment So take some time to consider this. Straight people can never understand how humiliating and degrading this would have been. It must have been unbelievably painful to live in the greatest Democracy in the world with all this success yet always feel on the outside for a reason you cannot control Then the change started and some states started allowing it, the average American started becoming more open minded, proposition 8 was won and Obama became supportive. But for some gay people they lived in states that refused to allow it and then the Supreme Court made the landmark ruling and suddenly all states had to correctly allow it I consider this the most significant event since Civil Rights movement, thousands of gay people subsequently got married in the USA and finally could feel truly American. Then Davis decided against all this historic fanfare to refuse to issues licenses, despite the fact this was a national precedent and that she knew people would be coming to ask for something they had never received before....no this made no difference to her. Where was her basic humanity...where was her sense of empathy? Can a person really work in a court like this and not consider what would happen when gay people arrived? You ask me to say " she musn't get bullied " ...seriously ? So she should be extended courtesies that she refused to extend to others...thats okay Volo you can believe in double standards but I won't And then gay couples did arrive at the court and she refused to issue licenses, in fact she refused one couple 4 times. How do you think they felt, do you think they felt bullied and humiliated? You don't think a lifetime of this was enough? No I feel nothing for her ...she felt nothing for how she treated others

Bullying is not nearly as bad as what she did But we dont have to call it bullying if that word offends. Lets say public ridicule...I asume you are happy with that? And please tell me you are because if not I'll be compelled to explain in further detail and my next response will be longer But if I don't have to explain further I won't

Nonek I must apologize for some of the arguments we use to have, I have basically explained to everyone that I was mistaken with my initial view of why I thought you guys supported GG. But I have also made some personal apologies yet I haven't to you I won't lie I did use to be particularly disappointed with your stance on GG as I did expect you to " know better " due to your life experience and its clear the younger members look up to you and in my experiences of having SJ discussions and debates someone like you is always the hardest one to convince ...as if you don't now by now you never will know. But as I mentioned I was mistaken in my view so don't see this as criticism Also you annoyed me when you kept bringing up the strip clubs as me being a hypocrite ...and I am well aware of that accusation but its just not valid but I still didn't like it Anyway this lead to some silly and personal debates and I did use to provoke you at times I actually had people PM me and say " wow there is really bad blood between you and Nonek, you guys need to sort it out " but of course I thought you were a bigot and didn't care. Anyway sorry for the accusations I made towards you and anything I might have said that was personal

Yeah, I actually find this internet disparaging of Davis through social media and memes to be in bad taste. I disagree with her and believe she should face the consequences of her (in)action, but this is still bullying. It will pass, the same sex marriage bill has global ramifications and is something that has ended decades of discrimination against the LGBT community.....it really was historical and important for the USA Davis decided to try to undermine this because she is a bigot and played the religious card to increase sympathy ...she deserves this " bullying " Nobody really deserves bullying, IMO. That said I'm not sure what she's getting is "bullying" so much as "public scorn". I suppose from her perspective it might feel like bullying, so I guess the situations a bit hazy. Yeah, thats why I said " bullying " ...its not bullying, this is the expected response But seriously how much sympathy can you really have...you can't tell me any person in the USA wouldn't be aware of how historical this was? And if a person really was that unaware then the good news is they should be able to move on quickly as they have the ability to not really think too much.

You see your Dutch have no more boundaries or restrictions so you just don't get it ...everything is " old news " to you How are your sisters by the way ?

Yeah, I actually find this internet disparaging of Davis through social media and memes to be in bad taste. I disagree with her and believe she should face the consequences of her (in)action, but this is still bullying. It will pass, the same sex marriage bill has global ramifications and is something that has ended decades of discrimination against the LGBT community.....it really was historical and important for the USA Davis decided to try to undermine this because she is a bigot and played the religious card to increase sympathy ...she deserves this " bullying "

I must mention something that always interests me about you Americans and how even though we are very similar on our views on Democracies we differ on the principle of "offensive free speech " and how I believe certain speech needs to be banned in the interest of social harmony yet all you guys unequivocally support free speech. I admire this but just dont get it, like that offensive prophet Mohammed art museum that you guys didn't support yet said it had a right to be open But I defend America in debates on the radio, I get great pleasure in disputing this absurd and utterly baseless attacks on the USA from certain people in my country. You guys won't believe some of the nonsense people phone in and make a comment on...even today a guy phones in and says " its the Americans fault all the Syrians are leaving to get into Europe because the Americans started the war in Syria. And America loves bombing everything like the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Americans just want to bomb everyone" ...and then one my personal favorites " The CIA created ISIS to destabilize the ME and give them another excuse to invade again because the USA needs oil " And yes the people who make these comments are grown men but are really not very bright. And with my accurate knowledge of the region and history its not very hard to dispute what they saying...I always try to correct them in a polite way as I dont want to seem arrogant But the thing is everything I say can be proved and is on the Internet so it boggles the mind why people just don't do research

I'm ****stirring you Bruce. (although I obviously still support those positions) Okay but you could have been serious because my posts do get misunderstood and certain people on these forums I do care what they think about me. You are one of them so I prefer to explain so there is no confusion

@ GD and others You guys realize its Republicans who would be making the whole spurious Rosa Parks analogy....its an insult to your intelligence. They are basically suggesting you guys are rednecks who live in the wild and aren't as informed as " us city folk " This would be a good and understandable time to switch to Democrats and Hilary...no one will judge you Bruce, speaking as a democrat -- albeit with fascist tendencies -- there are Republicans who absolutely get it, and Democrats that are plain morons. The problem with today's political climate in America is that the loud voices tend to drown out those who are willing pragmatists. I personally have no problem with most Republicans I know --hell I'm very good friends and even related to many of them. Unfortunately, good sense has been hijacked by partisan rhetoric and irresponsible governance. Debate is good. Discourse is good. I want good, responsible Republicans and Democrats actually working together to form a working government. I would vote for another Eisenhower or George H.W. Bush. I would've even been tempted by Jon Huntsman had he won the Republican primary in 2012. Yes I know not all Republicans are bad, as I mentioned all the Americans I work with are Republicans. I would never judge a person on the party he supports ....that would be a very myopic way of looking at people For me I judge people on there actual views and actions....for example someone who was a racist or shows homophobia. This " criticism " of mine towards the Republicans is just politics, its not personal. But I do want the Democrats to win as I want the Obama policies to continue as they have been very good for the USA ..so I would love for someone like GD to vote Democrats so he isn't disappointed when they win...I like him

I am technically of native descent. That said that's still obviously a silly solution. There's a bit of a gap between accepting the material consequences of industrial development and Bruce's deliberate downplaying of historical events that still have residual effects today. No Baro you are still misunderstanding me, I use to think it was just people not using there common sense when they kept not understanding me but I know you bright so its obviously me not explaining properly Of course that photo you posted and what the UK did in Australia around slavery was appalling and reprehensible. But I think all slavery the UK was involved in was like that. I thought when I said that you would assume that included Oz By the way I was just teasing Volo when I brought up the superiority of the UK, it would demonstrate a real level of ignorance and hubris if a person said " the UK brought tea to the world and yet gets blamed for Colonialism" ....you can never ignore all the negative consequences of what the early Colonialists did. That is exactly why the Europeans don't exactly go on about there lost empires because we are all aware how they were built on human suffering of others I do believe the West has evolved into the best system of governments and ideology and we do have the happiest citizens in the world. I can understand how you thought I was being serious, I apologize for the misunderstanding

@ GD and others You guys realize its Republicans who would be making the whole spurious Rosa Parks analogy....its an insult to your intelligence. They are basically suggesting you guys are rednecks who live in the wild and aren't as informed as " us city folk " This would be a good and understandable time to switch to Democrats and Hilary...no one will judge you

No dude thats not asking for advice ...thats understanding your limitations and is considered a good character trait. Especially in business well the point was that asking a profesional is always better than trying to tangle with something you dont know by yourself Yes you right

I'm sorry another weird person Nothing physical or visual irritates me...but I tend to over-analyze things which can be vexing in its own way

Its good to be different ...I am very different, eccentric actually

Sure, I believe you but I was being honest when I said thats not the normal response

Heretic. That's weird actually ..I try not to sound rude to people on forums but not liking the feeling of paper goes against everything that people say about this topic . People who are traditional readers always prefer the tactile experience of a book but we all use eBooks for convenient sake

No dude thats not asking for advice ...thats understanding your limitations and is considered a good character trait. Especially in business

What annoys me more and,remember I really support SJ causes,is I thought in the beginning she was doing this because she was truly religious and I had sympathy for that But I'm sorry after seeing her marriage record I have now realized she cannot be a person of that much real conviction ...and it annoys me that she delayed the process that long

No offense but thats not really a helpful response...even if true Its like when someone has a drug problem and asks for help and you say " just stop "

@ LN I read your post and I would like to comment, firstly I don't agree with our two friends above. Your situation isn't that bad, you just need to make some decisions and I'll give you the options So lets get the obvious out the way, of course your mom loves you but she is unable to stop being overbearing to the point where its impacting your relationship My parents were divorced when I was 2 but I saw my dad every second weekend. We lived with my mom and she loved us greatly but also spoilt us. I had a very similar issue with my mom, we use to end up just fighting at the end..I couldn't stop getting irritated with her and she would always assume I would mess things up because I often use to get instructions wrong because she would say " don't forget to feed the dogs " Anyway your solution is simple, in order to get your life and relationship with her normal again you need to move out ...that's the best approach. You can't really explain this to her or get her or you to change the current dynamic Yes I understand your financial situation but you can make a plan, you will need to sacrifice a few things but I live in a country where millions of people live in abject poverty. So please don't say " you cannot move out " as I will see this as an excuse. You just plan it and tell your mom..no need to run If you don't move then you cannot get annoyed anymore with your mom. So for me this boils down to a choice about comfort but a happier life ...it may not seem like it but I would advise moving out. Yo will them see how your relationship with your mom will get better

Geez dude I didn't read LN post as its too long but I don't think people really expect that type of honesty

I don't know, I am not that sympathetic to people who make excuses for simply not doing there job

By deflecting the British Empire's treatment of aboriginals to an unrelated topic. You see unlike you I see things in there full extent, I don't just select what is appropriate for my country

They're Australian aboriginals. Yes I know but obviously slavery and photos like that obviously invoke guilt about the UK role which I feel obliged to respond to