BruceVC

Ah my young friend you are misunderstanding the reality in the USA and seeing something that is just an aspect as the big picture You are confusing Internet debates and US politics as a reflection of the society. Ask anyone else on these forums from the USA if they think the place they live is polarized? I have never found that on my numerous trips to the USA ...but ask me what I think of the general level of Internet debates about lets say SJ issues and I will say " unhelpful, generalized, condescending, intransigent, bitter ...and polarized "

That's an interesting observation, I wonder how widespread that is? It may just be where you live...lets see what other US forum members think ?

My point, I guess, was that I'm trying to see both sides of the argument, and that the situation/issue seems terribly complex and nuanced...and it's unfortunate that all of us...or at least most of us...live in polarized societies where it's (increasingly?) difficult for people to consider the perspectives of those on the other side of the wall, and that issues such as these aren't likely to be resolved any time soon and/or with any semblance of effectiveness as a consequence of that. I edited my previous post some, in case that helps further explain my point of view any. Now that makes sense, I get that 100 % and its interesting How would you say you live in a polarized society ..who are you polarized from ?

Cool news I can run GTAV at full graphic settings with my new video card ...it just does it

I've read a tiny - very tiny - amount of literature on the subject, and the "don't attack the privileged, but try and motivate them (as well as everyone else) to get involved in better understanding and working towards improving the lives of those who belong to unprivileged social categories" seems to be the general motto of those are more reasonable about the subject (i.e. not usually the more extremist teenagers and young adults you find on twitter and tumblr and such). It's my belief, though, that people, regardless of their station (or lack thereof) in life, are generally too absorbed in their own lives in order for such movements to ever truly make progress. Most regular people are too busy working for their own lives and the lives of their loved ones and close friends, too much so to care about the intricacies of others' lives, particularly when it's concerning what seems to be semi-abstract social categorization and labeling. Throw in the people who claim to be "working for" those unprivileged groups but are really more just attacking what they consider to be privileged groups - particularly those who don't subscribe to their theory of certain categories being privileged and others being unprivileged - and you're bound for some equal anger and pushback. Such is life...and the polarized societies we live in. Barti you post is confusing ? Can you not just make your point simply...like ....me You see, no issues understanding me

Volo if there was one thing I had hoped you had learnt from me is lets not make excuses for others ineptitude ....lets" see the wood for trees " Greece borrowed the money and Greece needs to pay it back....any other point just seems like some irrelevant venting at other countries ?

But Amentep he is funny hey K ?

No its not as simple as " no Romance in PoE " ...haven't you been reading your own thread? Its about the real and surreptitious reason for why people say they don't like Romance .....there are things people aren't completely disclosing and its our duty to help them post the reason

But surly you don't still think Germany is evil ?

You funny Good one

Volo you sound like some radical feminist who never forgets the past ....we forgive countries and move on from past mistakes. Do you dislike Italy for Mussolini ?

Okay good, I was just worried it was a book There is a proven connection between cynicism and serial killers ....so you just rather play it safe Could you give a link to that proof? Because I've never heard that before. Of course I can provide a link...haven't you learnt by now I can always provide links But the reality is I don't believe you have heard of every single theory in the world around causes for what makes people serial killers....so just because you haven't of something isn't reason for me to prove it? So just take my word...you need to trust people more

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans What matters is ideology not just conditions, there have been some studies pointing out that middle class values lead inner city kids to success whilst the ones who embrace ghetto culture grow up into a life of crime. Generally speaking, smart people are rare and not really a measure of the general population but First world general populations have more information available to them than Third World. But that has no bearing on the subject of will and morals, you can work towards making your life better while being a decent person without being a Rhodes scholar. It is what a lot of people do and who are unfairly paired with the worst examples of their ethnicity because some people have the misguided notion that other people's choices is somehow their fault and responsibility. They are not children and they know right from wrong and there is a difference between a thief who draws the line at a moral relative and the ones who have no limits. Those things have nothing to do with culture. I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning? I do understand it. I just think it's bull. I know white privilege is a thing. I just don't care because acknowledging it, or not acknowledging it, makes absolutely no difference. The questions you originally posed still weren't answered - what does it mean for him that you acknowledged it? He feels a little better because someone who was dealt a good hand in life acknowledged him while he was dealt a **** hand. He was already dealt that **** hand, however, so acknowledging doesn't change that. Playing your cards in a way to help people with **** hands dealt to them or to give new hands being dealt a better chance of being good, that's meaningful. The fact that the hand you were dealt was good due to no control of your own is pointless to dwell upon. You claim you're already doing a lot to try to make it a better place for less fortunate people, to educate people about racism, etc. so what does this change for you, going forward? Are you going to help more than you already did? What does this change for the man who got you to acknowedge it, going forward? Are you going to help him, specifically? Why and how does it matter? Why is your white advantage constantly under scrutiny while it's their black disadvantage we need to be taking a closer look at? The world would be a much better place if people pointing fingers and going "this person has an advantage I don't have, let's attack them" and started pointing fingers and going "this person has a disadvantage I don't have, let's help them" - more people would be helped, and less people would be polarized against those trying to help. Have you never stopped to wonder why so many people are now against those who talk about "social justice"? It's because they constantly focus on and attack people for **** that doesn't matter. So you've accepted your white privilege - so what? Here's a way to look at it - I've lived with mental disorders for my entire life. Products of my formative environment, who I was born to, how my bodychemistry works. People who don't have to deal with depression, chemical imbalance, social anxiety etc. have a massive advantage over me. I could spend my time bitching at people to acknowledge they have it better than me and their problems don't matter as much as mine, but how does that help anyone? Instead, I try to talk to people who deal with the same thing and help them and raise awareness by pointing out my disadvantage instead of their advantage. Because the fact that someone I talk to is healthy doesn't change anything. Guys thanks for the feedback, I haven't explained it properly and the reality is you wouldn't understand what I am saying unless you were part of something like Apartheid and I am glad neither of you has been Its not about guilt for me, its about an acceptance of something that exists in South African society that white people just need to recognize. But I won't be putting pressure on anyone I know. This is something you do on your own for yourself

Fair enough, you probably immune to the serial killer syndrome ....you dont seem irrational

Well the good news is because you are German you get a pass...and I'm not being facetious. Its valid The Germans did commit some atrocities in Namibia ( German SW Africa ) but that pales in comparison to what you did in WW1 and WW2. Yet despite your entire country being utterly defeated and carved up and your entire nation vilified you have rebuilt yourselves to an economic powerhouse ....its very impressive and is really testimony to the caliber and strength of German culture People don't seem to want to recognize this but I will. That is why I got so annoyed when the Greeks and others were blaming the Germans for expecting Greece to pay back its loans Your country had to do so much more and succeeded. I would be very proud to be German

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans

Yeah, how dare those plebs use their own reasoning and moral intuition to discuss things, and assume that the burden is on the accuser to bring across the meaning of his/her accusation. Don't they know that when accused with a fancy made-up word, they're supposed to duck and nod and go quietly read the Marxist sociologist elite's treatises on the topic and Listen And Believe™... You funny Ineth but I am hoping Baro does respond with RL information and personal experiences. I believe he has something to add....well he always alludes to it I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning?

To be honest the first time I heard the word Romance was in a Bioware game ....but I'm South African so what do I know about Romance ?

White privilege is simply the politically correct term for "racism vs white people" Its an excuse used by the lazy and incompetent to justify their shortcomings by dumping the blame on those who try to be more successful. To use an example that my mother encountered. There was a imigrant girl in the school she works as a teacher. In her old school she was treated with contempt and was bullied just because she was a foreigner. When she came in my mother's school, she met a friendlier enviroment, the rest of the kids played with her, nobody bullied her, she made friends and could finally focus on her studies again. She happens to be very smart so she was getting top grades and that, unfortunatelly, made her arrogant. She started seeing herself as the queen of the class, scorned others for having lower grades, acted all high and mighty etc. That thing made the other kids dislike her and slowly she lost all her friends and was left all alone. However she did not realise it was this sort of behaviour that was the problem, even when she was warned about it by my mother, and still keeps it up, thinking that the other kids became racist overnight and blaming them for everything. She may not be lazy or incompetent, but she used racism as a scrapegoat to justify her lack of manners and the result of it Also to use a USA example, the "gangsta culture" has been associated with black people because the vast majority of it's promoters are black singers. That fact makes it both appealing to the young blacks and a reason for everyone else to see any black person (especially the young) as a potential gang member out for blood. They cause the problem themselves but they call others racists to dump away responsibility for the monster they made. I'm not saying racism does not exist but not everything happens because of it... if you are looking for trouble and you find it, it's not the trouble's fault whatever form it may have. I know many people may see it like this but it is more complicated than this especially when you consider a country like South Africa Yes I am exposed to " racism " from some black South Africans but its not meaningful and is more a sign of frustration Its hard to explain but I'll try. Last night when I phoned in to that first radio station I was absolutely confidant that I didn't need to accept white privilege because I really believe in the multiracial transformation of the country and I felt that guilt was pointless considering all the effort I put to ensure racial harmony Anyway I asked the black talk show host " what is white privilege and what am I suppose to do about it " ...he honestly didn't know and said he felt it was just black people being racist themselves because obviously they know me and not all black people believe it Then a few other people phone in, I was expecting the usual semi-aggressive black people trying to use strange logic to justify this concept of " white privilege " which obviously wasn't real Then an older black guy, he sounded in his 50's, phoned in and in broken English he started trying to make a point. He was actually very emotional ...he was in tears and he basically kept saying " why can't white people accept white privilege ...thats all we want them to say....why can't they accept it " but obviously he didn't say it as obviously. The talk show host who is a very bright guy didn't understand him and kept asking him to repeat himself and he kept trying to make his point until finally he made it and I suddenly understood This older black guy is sadly a causality of Apartheid, he will never get a job as he was never properly educated under Apartheid and in the new South Africa he is also not really marketable due to his age and lack of experience . He understands that he is now free but what is freedom without a semblance of economic freedom yet despite the fact he is basically a shadow in this new South Africa he still listens to a radio talk show where people discuss new opportunities and how to improve the country. He didn't ask for anything....he didn't want to verbally insult me ( which never bothers me )...he just wanted me to accept white privilege because for him this was all that mattered. He didnt have anything yet that obviously was like some kind of important justification for all his suffering. It hit me emotionally really hard when I thought how good my life is yet I also realized " look what we (I dont mean me I mean white South Africans who supported Apartheid ) did ...look what Apartheid has done. It has truly destroyed the consciousness and identity of people "....most white people are actually fine in the new South Africa yet we forget there is whole generation of " lost" black people like him So how could I not accept my role in white privilege...thats all he was asking for and it was valid and true when you are confronted by it. I am probably not explaining it properly but it was very emotional moment for me. All these years and all these insults and people trying to force me to admit something I always dismissed ..and just like that I could see it And the next talk show host made a similar point.

Yes you are correct, the talk show hosts absolutely dismissed how I was treated when I explained how I was treated. It honestly didn't bother me but for them its the principle Says the guy living in the first world country, you may know the theory but I live the practical . Also I would think black South Africans would understand it? But I assume you aren't talking to me, I know you have some good opinions on this. Can you share them as I am interested. Also since it is now relevant since you raised it but what is your connection to these types of SJ issues? Are you a minority? I don't mean to pry but I have been very honest about my connection so it would be great if other people also involved could share there connection

Okay good, I was just worried it was a book There is a proven connection between cynicism and serial killers ....so you just rather play it safe

Um... no. It seems you completely misunderstand me. I judge other fantasy RPG components on their believabilty. That ties into the whole 'immersion' thing (a horribly overused term, and one I am even loath to use, but it fits here. And please don't confuse this with 'realism'). As for satisfying, that also applies to other RPG elements, especially the story. If that's not satisfying, I may not complete the game - and if I do I certainly won't recommend it. Same with writing - and that covers romances, btw. Have I ever said "I don't like the way this dungeon was designed or how this dragon attacked me, it was unsatisfying "? Yes, I have. The former, many times. The latter, not exactly in that fashion, but I've complained about the battle with a particular dragon (to adhere to the example) on at least one occasion, stating I found it not fun and very unsatisfying because of the way the encounter was designed as well as the fact that the creature's difficulty relied pretty much solely on an overstuffed health bar. Yes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, although I'm not sure you're disagreeing with what I'm actually trying to say (and if I'm unclear, I take full responsibility for that and extend my apologies). Oh.,,,my bad ? I was told you never complain about dragons in RPG...which dragon fight did you find unrealistic

Malc do you really think someone of your.....cynical nature ....should be reading books about serial killers ? Its probably not a good idea...rather read news stories ?

You can't help but not like this type of post ..you put so much effort into the point and I respect that But I don't agree with the general sentiment because you are ultimately doing the same thing that critics of Romance do that go the intellectual route. You are judging Romance in RL metrics and thats unfair. The moment someone says " Romance isn't believable " I know they are missing the reason people like Romance Honestly tell me one other thing in a game like DA:I that you judged on "believability "" ? Well I haven't played DA:I yet, so I really couldn't say, to be honest. It's not about believability for me though, it's complication with other mechanics and game tone in general. If romances have no effect on anything else in the game, then they feel like insignificant fan-fiction fluff. If they have too strong an effect, then they feel like requirements that lead to people half-heartedly doing them for in-game benefits. If they're too realistic in terms of restrictions and after effects then people who came by for a flight of fantasy get weirded out, and if they're too fantastic and unrestricted then you get people who find them immersion breaking. I'm not saying romance can't be done well in a game, or that it's not especially fitting in a game like PoE. Actually it's the exact opposite. I think the folks at Obsidian are probably one of the few crews of devs I'd trust to do a Romance feature correctly in a game. But that said, the multitude of potential complications such a feature brings with it just leads me to believe that not including the option was a rather rational and safe choice. Like I said, if Obsidian decides they have a way to do this feature properly, I'd be down to see what their take on it would be. I especially think it'd be a good feature to add considering the Stronghold, especially since I think the Stronghold could use a lot of expansion in terms of mechanics in general (and that I'd like to see way more capturable characters so I could still have a fighting character who's a lot less murdery, and lots of interesting King of Dragon Pass kind of decisions that being a newly minted lord would entail), and having a spouse at your house dovetails well into a better stronghold feature. So I'm nominally pro-romance, just not going to push it because I get why it's not in, and personally, there are other features I'd like to see in the game higher on my personal priority list. I'll leave the advocating to the more interested parties like yourself. So what is interesting is I believe that Obsidian also just don't like Romance and or see them as a distraction from more important features. Also I don't believe they are particularly partial towards the BSN Romance crowd judging there games on similar criteria to what you mentioned. But of course they don't want to offend people by saying " we don't like Romance " so they gave a reason that who in there right mind is going to question...they showed humility " we wont have Romance in PoE because we feel we can't do them properly " (yeah right like us Promancers have high standards ) But end of the day we respect decisions they make they feel are appropriate. For me they are the developers, not me Let me ask that question about DA:I differently. Don't you enjoy interacting and getting to know your party members? If you do enjoy that in a RPG why is you enjoy it and more importantly why do you do it ? For me I always talk to my party members because it makes our interaction more realistic and adds to the RP experience of the overall journey . So I get to know them within the game and that increases the sense of immersion as they become more than just robots I use only in combat...like my party in IWD

You can't help but not like this type of post ..you put so much effort into the point and I respect that But I don't agree with the general sentiment because you are ultimately doing the same thing that critics of Romance do that go the intellectual route. You are judging Romance in RL metrics and thats unfair. The moment someone says " Romance isn't believable " I know they are missing the reason people like Romance Honestly tell me one other thing in a game like DA:I that you judged on "believability "" ?