BruceVC

As far as I know, climatologists are fairly confident we've passed the point of no return and are looking forward to a mass extinction event in a few generations. You won't really have to worry about the living environment of your children and grandchildren, because chances are, they're going to die for reasons completely unrelated to various forms of violence and injustice done by their fellow men. Oh alum....you are funny...is this your attempt to cheer our jaded European friends up about the future

You funny

Fair enough, the way you identify SJ initiatives doesn't sound appealing ...I mean who would sign-up for that? But what if the " Right Way of Thinking " was based on a valid premise would you follow it then? Because I firmly believe that SJ isn't suppose to be about censorship but rather a more tolerant and equitable society that benefits all citizens Isn't that something you can get behind?

Oh those wicked, wicked SJW types.....imagine a world free from there insidious and inimical influence But wait, we aren't thinking this through properly ...who would you guys vent and demonstrate all the outrage against? I suppose ISIS is one suggestion? But do you think we could galvanize the same level of disdain towards ISIS that SJW receive....its a tough one boys ?

Yes, okay let me do that

Well I think the vast majority of refugees really believe that the West offers a real and better quality of life than the countries they come from...and this is to be expected They want security and want to live in a country where they can work and achieve economic prosperity for themselves and there families I find it hard to believe they want to immigrate to the EU so they can live in an idealistic welfare state...yes some may see it like this but I doubt the majority do. The vast majority want to contribute and do there fair share to help grow the economies of there adopted countries But if you right and objective is to just live off social grants then yes the refugees and the EU, but more the refugees, are in for some harsh reality checks in the future

I agree, the EU from an economic perspective will be under immense strain if the objective of the refugees is to live off social benefits and yes the actual issue around job creation is also valid. But where is the evidence that suggests these refugees think of a future in the EU where there children will be able to live off social grants? I am not trying to catch you out but this is a fundamental point and does directly impact the broader question of "can the EU absorb millions of immigrants "

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border... And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable better life in the West So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money. The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous. Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc. Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s. EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc. Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful. Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections. (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner) UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it) CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary) We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it. If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years) Yes I don't disagree with some of your points For example if indeed the immigrants coming to the EU think they can live off social grants and a welfare state then there integration into the West will be difficult ..if not doomed to failure So I expect the majority of refugees to contribute towards the economies of EU countries they immigrate to, they need to pay taxes for example This should be understood and accepted by all Like it did for the last 20-30 years? What makes you think that they will suddenly change their way of life and mentality? I don't have the answer to that except that I doubt Merkel envisioned an economic and social reality where millions of immigrants would be invited to EU countries and not be expected to work and contribute towards the economy ? I have seen no evidence from the various interviews with immigrants where they have said " we want to come to the EU and live off social grants" But to be fair I also haven't seen any interviews where immigrants say " we want to find jobs and contribute " ....so I have to say it is assumed the majority of immigrants will need to work in the new EU countries? Surly this is logical?

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border... And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable better life in the West So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money. The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous. Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc. Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s. EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc. Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful. Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections. (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner) UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it) CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary) We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it. If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years) Yes I don't disagree with some of your points For example if indeed the immigrants coming to the EU think they can live off social grants and a welfare state then there integration into the West will be difficult ..if not doomed to failure So I expect the majority of refugees to contribute towards the economies of EU countries they immigrate to, they need to pay taxes for example This should be understood and accepted by all

This is an important question " the west actively contributed to it's destabilization " ...I don't believe this but I understand others do Its simple really to resolve thius , do you think the Arab Spring was caused by the West? Because the root cause of almost all this instability is a consequence of the Arab Spring...this includes Syria, Libya and the rise of ISIS And yes I am well aware of the contribution to the instability of the ME that the invasion of Iraq caused but this is not as destabilizing as the Arab Spring has been So then we need to ask again " is the West responsible for the Arab Spring " ? If you think it is then yes the West is responsible for the fact millions of Muslims are trying to immigrate to Western countries, I don't support this but if you do then maybe you can explain how the West is the cause for this social and political phenomena that swept through the Middle East and Northern Africa ?

You incorrectly believe that countries exist within a vacuum and that the success or failure of individual states has nothing to do with their relation to others. Because of this you erroneously treat "Western" success as purely a product of "Western ideology" and thus falsely assume the solution to non-Western states' conditions is to simply adopt "Western values". This of course obfuscates the material conditions in which these states exist, and perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these "Western" states plays. We have already had discussion with Haiti being the example. You right, we have had this discussion before and I still dont agree with your general premise. Yes it has some truth to it and I won't deny that So lets take your point for example " perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these Western states plays" So lets look at the African continent as an example of this view. Colonialism was terrible system that looted the natural resources of many African countries and undermined the sovereignty of many African countries But Colonialism for every single French and British African country, except for Algeria, was ended during the late 1960's. And all the colonies were handed over to educated African leaders and the countries were handed over in working states. Yet without fail, except for Botswana, every single ex-British and French colony was bankrupt by 1980's and needed loans from the IMF. But it wasn't Colonialism that caused this, this was a factor, but the main reason was mismanagement and lack of good governance by African leaders. Nowadays we have rising stars on the African continent, certain countries doing really well to transform there economies and uplift there citizens Yet we have about 10-12 countries that are truly in a benighted state and this responsibility lies with the respective leaders...like Zimbabwe and Uganda So in summary if all African leaders practiced good governance and maintained things like government institutions the African continent wouldn't be in the state its in. This is not about the West but actually about Africa and transforming the economy. Also the AU is an abysmal failure at managing the affairs of the continent and of course this doesn't help with economic and social upliftment of the overall continent I don't know much about Haiti so I can't comment

Just a heads up, if you ever want to know why you butt heads with so many posters here it's because of this kind of political analysis. Yes I understand a view of the reality of a political and social situation is not popular for some people on these forums, I have accepted that. So lets take exactly what I said and tell me how its wrong Are millions of people from Muslims countries not trying to immigrate to the West, is that not true? Lets keep this simple and focus on what I said and what you disagree with

I really like the socialist\capitalist government hybrid model that the Scandinavian countries have successfully implemented It permeates all your government institutions like education and healthcare, I know nothing is perfect but I still think it offers citizens the most effective system to uplift themselves economically It does require a high employment rate so everyone can contribute and a relatively high tax rate which I would be prepared to pay in a country like South Africa but we have far too many people who are unemployed or live on social grants....so I doubt we could implement it as the tax base is too low to fund effective government services like Sweden has But I'm sure other first world countries could follow Scandinavian economic model?

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border... And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable better life in the West So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel

Its becoming clear you don't want a positive view of the West and the current status of Western institutions like the EU I spend time explaining that Western ideology is under no threat from the likes of Islamic extremism because basically your issues and various questions are a symptomatic concern from the consequences of the actions of ISIS and you dismiss my entire post with some annoying " you haven't answered any of my questions" There are plenty of people who will exaggerate and embellish the state of the West and its sustainability. People like Drowsy and Zora will tell you the West is doomed and our culture is on the path to serious change and forced evolution...so you need to just continue to support them in there posts. There view supports the whole " chicken little ...the sky is falling " I operate in a world of facts, data and historical precedent. I won't pander to your negative view of the reality of the EU and say how " bad things are " just so you feel vindicated on some level

No thats not true Gadaffi ruled Libya for 40 years and he never once had an election, he ruled the country because he was a brutal dictator and controlled the army and police He is the same as Saddam, they aren't legitimate leaders so I'm not sure what " own peoples business " means because these types of countries don't include the people in the economy or politics that benefit the ruling dictator and his supporters

Congrats to both of you! Yes Gratz indeed Shady

You can keep yours. I give you permission. Namutree post that profile picture for me....I have the feeling it will make me laugh Only if you promise to use it as your new profile pic. At least for a day. Okay but I really should see it first....but I suppose how bad can it be? Okay I promise to use it for a day or so

You can keep yours. I give you permission. Namutree post that profile picture for me....I have the feeling it will make me laugh

Calax, I'm sure we've batted this ball around before. Libertarians are not anarchists. Libertarians are not opposed to taxes. We are opposed to writing a blank check to a federal government that is doing things it has no business or legal authority to do. The gist of the libertarian political philosophy (the modern version of it, not the 1950's objectivist utopia crap) is that all level of government have specific functions that should be well defined and narrowly construed and that it be sufficiently funded only enough to fulfill those functions. The Federal government has it's responsibilities including securing the borders, maintaining the currency, etc., the state, county, city, governments have theirs. You know what they are, you of all people do not need a civics lesson from me. The real trouble begins when those governments get into things they shouldn't be doing or assuming power they should not have. I have never understood what a Libertarian stands for or actually means in the US political landscape ...that seems like good description

I would oppose that. Granted I've opposed all US aggression in my lifetime, and voted accordingly. Too bad most people aren't like me in this regard. If you knew my history on this forum; you'd know that I'm among the very most skeptical of US foreign policy. Yes Namutree has always opposed Western military intervention unless the Wests interests are truly threatened . that is true. And he refuses to change his mind despite my efforts And people have been interfering and trying to defeat the West for decades. The West has faced threats like fascism, communism and now Islamic extremism..and the West has always persevered, survived and evolved. So please don't think the West hasn't been under attack in its history....it has been and it is currently. But this is something we can address and we will deal with it So take your best shot, please ...interfere as much as you want, it won't change the reality of the world and this is something you really don't want to admit " the West offers its citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens " ..which is why it is the most dominant ideology in the world

You funny Please post a link refuting what I am saying, I am keen to read it as long as its relatively credible....in other words I don't assume all right wing websites are automatically wrong but I would reject something from a white, supremacist website . But I don't think you would post something from that type of source

Yeah I also don't think I'm going to change mine

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west.... Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else No, you are mistaken So yes some mistakes were made by the West, like the invasion of Iraq and the reasons we were given But countries need to learn once they have independence they need to practice good governance and be inclusive of all there citizens ISIS also wouldn't be in existence if the current Shia and Iranian influenced government in Iraq had incorporated the Sunni minority...so that's on al-Maliki He ostracized the Sunni minority in Iraq and they felt like they weren't part of the new Iraq....so the new Iraqi government failed to be inclusive of all its citizens. This lead to the tribal Sunnis aligning with ISIS and supporting them...this is not the Wests fault So its very important to remember that if the West really wanted to destroy the Middle East....it really doesn't have to do too much as certain countries are doing it to themselves

You know I don't think I've changed my profile picture in......over 3 years ?