Tagaziel

Hey guys, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I've updated the template and recreated the table. Once it clears the job queue, we'll see if it updated correctly or if Cargo shat the bed again (we've updated to a fresh version after extensive debugging, so this might be the source of annoyances). I apologize for the delayed response!

I've researched this in-depth for the wiki, and put my findings there, based on examining the files: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Lair_of_the_Eyeless#Tempering_Abydon 1. The argument you're making relates to the White Forge, not Durgan's Battery. Binding dwarven souls to the cannons is OK. 2. Yep, Maneha's still bugged.

From my desk... As of 1:27 AM +1 GMT, I'm done with Phase One of the wiki improvement. November 26, 2017 to February 5, 2018, a complete playthrough through the base game and White March, adding missing quest coverage, characters, locations, and a ****load of writing culminating in hundreds of articles by my estimation. The next step is the beta for PoE2 and implementing the new front page. But first, sleep.

I just had an interesting conversation with Hiravias: I never really looked at it that way, but Hiravias' indignation indicates the term wild is seen as racist. And come to think of it, it would be neat though perhaps needlessly complicated to have the race designation change when you play as an orlan (unless you have a Slave background, then you'd have the normal outsider term). Just a random thought.

I don't see any other option, though Obsidian may give you an unique narration slide for it. It might actually be kind of clever to see how the decisions you made affect Deadfire without further intervention.

I think there's a bigger issue at work here, one that I haven't seen widely addressed. The very fact that the gods are real and have a real, measurable impact on the lives of people invalidates religion, as belief is no longer an integral part of it: You don't believe that Eothas exists. He does regardless of your belief, much like the mountains, the oceans, or the pig you had for dinner (though it's likely transformed into something else in the meantime). Think about it. The true gods are entities with a tangible impact and presence, entities that you can interact with directly to boot. You don't believe that rituals you carry out or your actions/lack thereof affect your standing with the gods. They do. Hiravias is a particularly fine example of how this impacts the individual person: He knows that Galawain and Wael meant something when they sicced that autumn stelgaer on him, because the gods are real. In a godless world, he wouldn't have the foggiest and he would likely use religion as a crutch to rationalize his random maiming. From what I gather, this is precisely what the Engwithans were getting at when they birthed the gods: Give the world structure and eliminate religious conflict by introducing real, tangible gods who can give meaning to random occurrences in kith lives. It evidently worked, as barring the Inquisition, there's been no long-term religious strife that I recall (the Saint's War was a defensive war against an aggressive neighbor, rather than a crusade; hell, the very fact that Eothas exists and the global commonality of faith precludes the crusade scenario, as everyone believes the same gods). This rather lengthy run-up brings me to the point that learning of the origin of the gods might change very little in the working relationship of a priest of Eothas, if at all. The deity still exists and provides an anchor point for a specific philosophy and priestly powers. They still respond much the same as they did in the past when interacting with their followers. From where I stand, do we think any less of philosophers, merely because they were born? If not, are the gods of Eora really any different?

Well, how does the Legion know that you killed Vulpes at Nipton if you kill every single person there with extreme prejudice? It's pretty much the problem with creating game systems. The game doesn't assign frivolous lies a lot of weight (interactions don't contribute to reputations equally, a white lie won't be the same as convincing someone you didn't find item X, when you're pocketing it for yourself and his friends see you parade with it), but if you tell them a lot, they coalesce - and by the time you reach Defiance Bay you have already gained notoriety as the new Roadwarden. On Wael, I think it's because the lies you tell happen to align with the god of mysteries' agenda. Pure lying and deception would only be favored by Skaen.

Sure. I merged every text file in Pillars into one giant file, so I can find these fast. Kana: "What I do know is that Od Nua is said to have been a great king, ruling over a host of men and women, and he built this place as a monument. But the Paths have been here two thousand years. The Aedyrans claimed it after them, and after them in turn came a host of treasure hunters and explorers. I'd wager there are bones down here for every era." "There have been arguments as to the chant's true interpretation. New translations, even. But any rendition of it I find in the ruins of Engwith will predate those translations by two thousand years. "And finding it here also proves that we still have much to gain from trading with other cultures." "To uncover that great king's tomb would be a dream - but it's one of his servants I'm really after. Gabrannos. A powerful mage, and a dedicated scholar. A keeper of lore, just as I mean to be - only, two thousand years before our time." (these are just the selected bits) Sefyra: "Two thousand years... and now I am free. I know not where I will go first. The Vailian Republics, perhaps? Or the plains of Readceras. I should like to... run, I think." Cabiros: "Of course he's dead. Have you not been paying attention? Slain, two thousand years past." Od Nua: "For two thousand years, I have stood upon the precipice of victory. I cannot retreat nor cross. I am anchored to the very stone I shaped to shield my corpse. And all the while he is there, just out of reach. Beyond me." That's four separate NPCs confirming the timeline for Od Nua going bonkers, including an adra dragon capable of casting her soul across the world via Maros Nua's titan, giving her a pretty good point of reference for the passage of time.

Tyranny was linear?

It's a brilliant expansion, except for one thing: The debate with the Eyeless. Not the content, so much as the underlying gameplay. Love the concept, hate the execution.

Yes, the Wael priestess did not believe my Wael priest when I said I had given that book back to Wael, because I had used every opportunity to increase my dishonesty score. It is so counter-intuitive for an RPG that lying makes you worse at lying. Word really gets around that I pretended I didn't have a bad dream. It doesn't make you worse at lying. The Deceptive reputation is how others see you. Do you honestly (heh) expect your character being taken on their word if you consistently role-play a deceitful douchebag?

I forgot to add the references, but Od Nua himself establishes the time frame, as, I believe, does Cabiros. I'll have to re-check, but it's definitely the intent.

Hey there! You didn't think I'd abandon this thread just like that? I think I found the missing part of the puzzle (and I also finished White March, which is awesome, save for the Eyeless interaction where I consistently got 5/6 arguments right and the game decided it's not enough; script editing helped me **** that noise). Anywhoo, the missing part of the puzzle is in the Collector's Book, which states on p. 66 that the Glanfathans moved into their current area a millenium before the foundation of the Aedryr Empire. I estimate that at 1350 AI (since it's over a millenium). So the timeline at the present is here: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Engwithans 800 AI - Od Nua, Od Nua gets rekt by other Tyrants Next centuries - Engwithans seek gods. Don't find gods. So they make some gods. Century in between - Gods get created. Thaos proselytizes. Iovara goes "now wait a moment". Thaos goes ape****. Iovara has a very bad day. Century? Two? Before 1350 AI - Ondra decides to eliminate the weakened Engwithans and ensure everyone shuts up (weakened or almost absent; the Eyeless imply the Engwithans were in terminal stages with their "civ built on the bones of the previous civs" remark). Abydon catches a moon with his face. 1350 AI - The Last Engwithan (this would be a movie in modern-day Eora) calls the Glanfathans to come and crash on his stone couch. The offer attracts a ****load of people who accept the stone couch in return for killing everyone else who would want to sit on them. Next 1500 years: Never-ending party with Thaos as the DJ. Of course, Deadfire will fill in the gaps. Playing White March now shows that much of the expansion pack serves to set up Deadfire. At this point, the cataclysm alluded to in Rauatai descriptions is pretty obviously the moon - or its pieces - crashing into Deadfire.

Yes <3 Dang it, I knew I missed something (I've been working on this for days now, so things do slip; I'll add it shortly). It's a good thing that I discovered how to do batch files too and where to place them... Wish I knew that when working on the Tyranny Wiki. Duly noted!

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Official_Pillars_of_Eternity_Wiki/New_Main_Page New frontpage design is up. Feedback would be welcome (before I start moving articles around, which is going to cost me a soul and a half).

I got that even without hiring him first. Given that I worked out a deal with the ogres at White March, is it possible that a variable is misfiring and affecting him as if he was part of the crag ogres?

Anachronistic, but this painting always fit Lady Webb for me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewess_with_Oranges Given that the functionality is there, wouldn't it be possible to hack portraits into the game?

That's a very, very good point. I'll have to dig up the descriptions again (and put them on the wiki ), but the idea that the beliefs of the Engwithans fueled the creation of the gods makes a good deal of sense. We already have a precedent for that in the form of Death Guards (whose singular drive and belief allows/makes them to come back to... Unlife, I guess?), so... Hm. The cyclopedia for PoE2 connects Engwithans and reincarnation through the Wheel, so Berath could have been a core tenet even before its creation... That said, Od Nua definitely predates gods: <3 Beta <3 I'll dig them up in a bit. EDIT: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Cl%C3%AEaban_Rilag_inscriptions_and_reliefs

Sorry for the intermittent posting, but I'm also updating the wiki as I play (basically, game in one window, wiki in the other, and ON WE MARCH), so I'm piecing the pieces together after refreshing my memory (and finally experiencing White March after it ripened on my hard drive). I think it's fair to assume that the furthest point in Engwithan history would be Od Nua, two thousand years before the present day (stated outright by Kana, Od Nua, and Cabiros, so that's definitely the intended timeline). Further research convinced me that this isn't all that strange: The Iroccian calendar is only 150 years old and it inherited the year from the Aedyre calendar. However, something that I missed in reading the companion book is that reliable historical sources haven't really existed before the formation of the Aedyr Empire in the west (I assume the collapse of Vailia led to a massive loss of knowledge there), so we have about 600 years of reliable tracking of events and before that fourteen centuries of dark ages. At this point, I believe this is as follows: 1. 2000 years ago Od Nua goes weird after Maros dies. His weirdness leads to tremendous advances in animancy, paving the way for godmaking (there's zero references to gods of any kind anywhere in the Endless Paths, just the wheel). 2. ? years ago the gods are made at Twin Elms, including Berath. 3. ? years ago Cliaban Rilag is established, harnessing technologies pioneered by Od Nua for manufacturing animats at a large scale (perhaps to support their religious campaigns of expansion? defend them? there's plenty of references to heathens being fought in the inscriptions; the facility definitely post-dates Od Nua and Godmaking, as it features an elemental forge derived from those at Od Nua's Party Palace and plenty of Berathian iconography - impossible without gods) 4. Ondra drowns the Engwithan cities erasing most traces of their civilization (explaining the damage you encounter, even at Cliaban Rilag), preserving their secret; I'm not done with White March, so this is speculative. 5. Glanfathans move in to secure the ruins, guided by the remnants of Engwith. Notably, the proselytizing by Engwithans would be done after the first generation of missionaries dies out, as Iovara mentions overhearing they made a vow to die and take the secret with them to their graves. Sorry for not answering everyone specifically, but I feel this was a better way of doing this discussion justice.

That's what I thought, but what throws the wrench into things is the fact that multiple NPCs, including Kana and Od Nua, pin the events at the Endless Paths as happening two thousand years, or around 800 AI, roughly when the Darcozzi Paladini were founded. Perhaps the mistake I'm making is treating the Engwithans as the run-of-the-mill PROGENITOR CIVILIZATION, instead of just one of many ancient nations that happened to leave a very lasting mark on the world. It's precisely what I'm working on and why I asked these questions.

Something that I hope Deadfire will help settle (or at least provide enough clues to make sense of the backstory): Just how does Engwith's backstory flow? It occurred to me while compiling the story of the Endless Paths: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Endless_Paths_of_Od_Nua All sources, including Cabiros and Od Nua, state that the fall of the keep occurred two thousand years before present day. Given the interactions with the spirits and the general reverence Od Nua's Children of the Wheel show, it's safe to assume that Thaos' grand social experiment was not in motion back then, there were no gods. In fact, the loyalist guard spirit mentions praying to whatever god will have you, instead of invoking one of the pantheon, such as Berath or Eothas. This, along with the absence of other religious facilities, would indicate that they are still in the pre-gods era. On a narrative level, this makes sense, as Od Nua's Paths show the steady grow of Engwithan animancy and explain where they got their start. The soul storage machine prototype on level 8, identical to the one in Heritage Hill, is an obvious tie. Nagging However, the point where gods are unleashed and Thaos starts his missionary work is where I kind of lose track of the timeline. For starters, Glanfathans are said to have occupied Eir Glanfath for some two thousand years. As we know, Eir Glanfath is the site of Sun in Shadow where the gods are made. Glanfathans' rabid defense of Engwithan facilities, especially the barring of foreigners from most of Eir is a clear ploy by Thaos to keep the kith away from Sun in Shadow and finding out the truth about the gods. Second, Lady Webb states that Leaden Key dates back more than two thousand years. Barring it being Thaos' book club, it would mean that the gods were created before Engwith achieved animantic mastery. Third, your party members and especially Kana mention that people have been believing in gods for thousands of years. While two is certainly thousands, it's a bit technical. Making Sense To make sense of the timeline and given the absolute reliability of Od Nua and the adra dragon's testimonies, pegging the fall of Nua's fortress at circa 800 AI, the gods' creation must have occurred after that date, as did the missionary effort. The apparent discrepancy in dating is the result of Thaos' deliberate interference, aiming at establishing his faith as older than it truly is. That said... In the setting, 800 AI corresponds to roughly 400 BCE (assuming PoE dates to roughly the 17th century), the height of classical Greece. It's a ****load of time, in other words, and enough for religion to gain traction and spread, we only need to look at Christianity and Islam for examples close to home. Especially when you have an immortal capable of devastating entire civilizations to keep his dirty secret intact. Questions Does anyone have any sources I can peruse to figure that out? Or perhaps the devs can weigh in on the subject? It's frustrating to not have enough data to go on (though I have a hunch it was a deliberate choice).

Unfortunately, this kind of cluelessness isn't uncommon in Poland.

I put off playing White March and the Deadfire beta, so no more excuses I guess. But yeah, sufficiently absurd power may be blurring the line between gods and men (given that soulent divine is made from people)... Though I think it's still below divine level, otherwise the pantheon would be a lot more flexible than Engwithans planned it. Perhaps powerful enough to wound, but not definitively kill. Given Obsidian's history, I doubt it's going to be straightforward or that killing Eothas will be even a reasonable option (much like slaughtering the caravan at the beginning of PoE1). Absolutely. Given what I know about the game's main story and its implications (wasn't there something about the revelations being a threat to kith and gods alike?), it may be that the whole confrontation with Eothas might lead to destroying the pantheon. Or it may put you in the shoes of Thaos, with a new spin on his role and views: Maybe the gods are needed to make the world more bearable, as was the original plan? All good points. Given how the Effigy is made, it'd likely just be a custom skin for the various body types. ... Ugh. Effigy making.

It will make for some fine entertainment. Polish Trump fanboys are amusing to no end, especially when they spam 'Trump 2020' everywhere.

It's the first one. The gods being AIs is an amazing idea... And since they were brought into existence by men, they can certainly be unmade by men. My point was more related to the nature of the gods: The Engwithans sacrificed themselves en masse (one could say ascended) to create the gods as Eora knows, so one soul, no matter how powerful it is, couldn't quite put a dent in them. Even Thaos bargained with Woedica, rather than controlling her, as far as I remember. I like your points, even if the prospect of a special ending for the Effigy freaks me the hell out (yeah, I have a vivid imagiantion).