Lampros

Perfect - and thanks!

Ancient Memory is really confusing to me. First, it's not clear to me whether it is working or not in my games. The whole thing is passive, and I do not have to do anything to activate it, right? It's not on the list of Phrases or Invocations; and I see no modal icon for it. Second, I have now read a bunch of old threads about how it is bugged. In particular, some claim it turns off if you use Invocations. Is this still the case? If it is, then is it worth taking it at all - unless you will never use Invocations?

Then the question becomes: Is the superior single target DPS enough to off-set superior overall DPS (at least from level 13) plus Paladin auras/heals/buffs/cleanses? I am still inclining toward having a 2 Paladin front-line, but I may think about replacing one with either a Fighter or Barbarian. The rest 4: 2 Chanters, 1 Wizard, and 1 Priest are untouchable though. (I am not sure what I am going to do when they shrink the party to 5 in PoE ).

Also, since we are doing Paladin v.: What about Paladin v. Fighter in terms of off-tank/DPS role from the front-line? More specifically, I suspect how big is the single target DPS gap in favor of the Fighter? (I suspect the Paladin will do more overall DPS due to Immolation after level 13, so I am only interested in single target DPS comparison for boss fights.)

I picked Ancient Memory/Beloved Spirits while leveling up, but I could not tell whether they were auto or even working. I couldn't choose them among the various Phrases and Invocations?

Lampros you blaspheme! Even on PotD its hard to beat a Paladin on tanking ability. Consistently. A wizard can do it with deflection but still cant match on saves. Like not even close! You can prone him and then he is meat! Blasphemy! Yes, I agree a Paladin is definitely a lot sturdier than a Chanter. But the reason I said the Chanter is a better tank is that he will do a bit more DPS than the Paladin. And I do not really foresee tank survival as a big issue in this game, because tanks - unlike squishy back-liners - are relatively hard to kill in this game. So the main difference is "what else can the tank do?" - and Chanters bring slightly more DPS.

Agreed. I usually hate difficulties that rely on buffing enemies, but PotD doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as most other games that do it. It's hard for me to say for certain how your experience of PotD would be, as you have a very different style of play to me (I pause and micro all the time). Certainly buffing, debuffing and crowd control are going to be more useful in PotD than on other difficulties. That said, I think you're worrying about the difficulty more than you need to. Shields certainly aren't a necessity and I can't think of any builds that are good on normal/hard but not viable on PotD. I'd just jump in and try it out. Ok, you persuaded me to go into PotD relatively blind, with no "hard" difficulty as a transition. I am going to blame you if I fail miserably!

I think you overestimate Paladins and Chanters because of your dislike of micro. Wizards, Druids and Priests can all do absurdly high damage if you empty their spell books as fast as possible. Also, whilst Sacred Immolation is indeed a great damage dealing ability, Paladins aren't particularly great at single target damage dealing (Flames of Devotion is good but limited) and sometimes you simply need to focus an enemy down. This could be very well the case indeed! I will test spell spamming with the casters a few fights and compare. As for a Paladin's single target DPS: Aren't 2 FoDs per encounter usually enough for single target DPS? I do not know of any marathon boss fights as you find in other RPGs here. I suspect that a great many of those people do it because that's how they feel paladins should have been in the first place, rather than the leader/support class that the devs foisted on the players. Paladins may have "many other strengths", but I suspect that those are strengths that many players would give up in a heartbeat for a more offensively oriented paladin class. Oh, some of their abilities are nice enough, but it seems to me that if you really want a support second line support character that can do these things, a priest can do them just as well, even if he has to do them a little differently. I think that a lot of players would rather that the paladin class was a class of "holy warriors" (I use that term loosely...) than what they are today. And that's why I think you see a lot of players trying to play them that way, regardless of how the class is designed. People keep saying that Paladins are not a DPS class, but my experience is otherwise - albeit I am a newb. In my admittedly limited experience, they can do decent DPS until level 13 (Sacred Immolation), and they can match anyone after level 13. In fact, in my experience they do only mildly less DPS than a full-blown, dual wield/Dragon Thrashed DPS Chanter once they get Sacred Immolation. So I am having a hard time understanding people complaining about Paladin DPS. Moreover, and this is another angle, Paladins in most RPGs or MMORPGs are in fact low-DPS, support classes. So if anything, I think PoE gives it far more offensive tools than is usually the case elsewhere. And this is the PoE Paladin's biggest appeal for me in fact. Well.... when I think Paladin I think AD&D Holy Avenger.... which makes me think Mega Damage Dealer. My memory is failing, and I do not remember AD & D Holy Avenger - though I played AD & D - as well as its offshoot PC games. But I just do not recall any truly DPS-oriented Paladin class in PC games a least. I think you overestimate Paladins and Chanters because of your dislike of micro. Wizards, Druids and Priests can all do absurdly high damage if you empty their spell books as fast as possible. Also, whilst Sacred Immolation is indeed a great damage dealing ability, Paladins aren't particularly great at single target damage dealing (Flames of Devotion is good but limited) and sometimes you simply need to focus an enemy down. Agree I always have one single target damage dealer. Usually a Fighter or a Rogue as they can both achieve extremely high ACC values against hard targets. Riposte rogues and DW Fighters have done the best job for me. Hmm, so Fighters do significantly more single-target DPS than Paladins? Where is the extra damage coming from? Weapon Specialization, and I guess faster swings from Armored Grace?

But I suspect I'd have a +3/4 Dex item on a Mechanic specialist anyways though (since they tend to be ranged guys for me anyways). But I guess if I do not have a such an item, then that could be a minor appeal, too.

I suspect that a great many of those people do it because that's how they feel paladins should have been in the first place, rather than the leader/support class that the devs foisted on the players. Paladins may have "many other strengths", but I suspect that those are strengths that many players would give up in a heartbeat for a more offensively oriented paladin class. Oh, some of their abilities are nice enough, but it seems to me that if you really want a support second line support character that can do these things, a priest can do them just as well, even if he has to do them a little differently. I think that a lot of players would rather that the paladin class was a class of "holy warriors" (I use that term loosely...) than what they are today. And that's why I think you see a lot of players trying to play them that way, regardless of how the class is designed. People keep saying that Paladins are not a DPS class, but my experience is otherwise - albeit I am a newb. In my admittedly limited experience, they can do decent DPS until level 13 (Sacred Immolation), and they can match anyone after level 13. In fact, in my experience they do only mildly less DPS than a full-blown, dual wield/Dragon Thrashed DPS Chanter once they get Sacred Immolation. So I am having a hard time understanding people complaining about Paladin DPS. Moreover, and this is another angle, Paladins in most RPGs or MMORPGs are in fact low-DPS, support classes. So if anything, I think PoE gives it far more offensive tools than is usually the case elsewhere. And this is the PoE Paladin's biggest appeal for me in fact. When the game first released this was not the case. Many of the posts you find online is from this. Paladins did not have Sacred Immolation and at the early early start had FoD 1 per encounter and did not have a + 20 ACC to the ability. So back then it was not worth it as Paladins especially in the early game have average ACC. Also the AI was worse and would dog pile the frontline. never looking at the back line. You could also stack deflection sky high because PER use to give deflection not ACC along with Resolve. That and with the dog piling AI your best bet with a Paladin was to create uselessly offensive meat shield with support abilities. It worked very very well. My first Paladin tanked the Adra Dragon for a long while and never got touched. A bit later Paladins got FoD 2 per encounter and the+ 20 ACC with it. This made them good Alpha Strikers and good tanks along with the support. When white March came out we got Sacred Immolation and you could/can make a very good DPSer from 13 on. My Paladin usually comes second only losing to the guy whose been damage dealing from the start. Ah, got it. I did not get the game until a few weeks ago, so I have only a very rough idea of when the expansions came out - and I know nothing about when various major patches were released.

Thanks Lampros, but I tend to stay away from casters and the typical "Holy Knights" for a main character when I can (simply for RP purposes). As mentioned above, I hope a Melee Ranger will be able to keep up with the others for my first playthrough. Paladins don't necessarily have to be "holy" or "moral" in this game. There are a number of "immoral" orders. As for Chanters, they do not work like "bards" in other MMORPGs. They have excellent deflection and accuracy. True, they lack Endurance/Health, but you can work around that by making them either a shield melee or a pike/staff melee.

Crunching numbers aside, how much harder is PotD in practice? I am thinking of jumping to PotD from Normal immediately, since the increase in stats is not as extreme as I feared. Will I be in for a rude awakening? In Normal, I did not really do much buffing or debuffing, and I just started hitting or shooting immediately and rarely was in trouble once I had 2 Chanters with Dragon Thrashed at level 9. Obviously, I will have to play more deliberately. Another issue is that how much limited are you in terms of classes and builds in PotD? For instance, I think it would be super-fun to try a group without a shield-using melee. So I am thinking 2 front-line Paladins with either both dual wielding or 1 dual wield/1 2H set-up. Is this crazy for a first-time go at PotD? I will have a 2nd-line Chanter with Tall Grass as link between 2nd and 3rd line, and the 3rd line troika of Borresaine Chanter, Wizard, and Priest. Would I need more CC if I am going to have 2 front-liners without a shield? Edit: I am trying to compensate for the lack of shield users with probably 1 Paladin doing Wayfarer on-kill heals, and the other Shieldbearer Paladin doing more defensive buffs. And I may have a dual wield Paladin using multiple stunning/prone-ing weapons. And what else should I be aware of?

I suspect that a great many of those people do it because that's how they feel paladins should have been in the first place, rather than the leader/support class that the devs foisted on the players. Paladins may have "many other strengths", but I suspect that those are strengths that many players would give up in a heartbeat for a more offensively oriented paladin class. Oh, some of their abilities are nice enough, but it seems to me that if you really want a support second line support character that can do these things, a priest can do them just as well, even if he has to do them a little differently. I think that a lot of players would rather that the paladin class was a class of "holy warriors" (I use that term loosely...) than what they are today. And that's why I think you see a lot of players trying to play them that way, regardless of how the class is designed. People keep saying that Paladins are not a DPS class, but my experience is otherwise - albeit I am a newb. In my admittedly limited experience, they can do decent DPS until level 13 (Sacred Immolation), and they can match anyone after level 13. In fact, in my experience they do only mildly less DPS than a full-blown, dual wield/Dragon Thrashed DPS Chanter once they get Sacred Immolation. So I am having a hard time understanding people complaining about Paladin DPS. Moreover, and this is another angle, Paladins in most RPGs or MMORPGs are in fact low-DPS, support classes. So if anything, I think PoE gives it far more offensive tools than is usually the case elsewhere. And this is the PoE Paladin's biggest appeal for me in fact.

It is desirable if you wanna disarm and unlock stuff as much as you can. It gives +2 to Mechanics, which at higher levels can save alot of points that can go to other skills like Survival. Being a glove slot is inconsequential as you don't need to wear it all the time. You use need to wear it to disarm and unlock stuff, then take it off afterwards for something else useful. Hmm, that's true. But on the other hand, that's more micro-management, too!

Quick check shows effective PotD values. Also, insert random rant about flat scaling and front-loaded challenge. Thanks much. So Endurance is up 9 from default values. So that's about 25 percent? I am not good at math, so I could be off on the numbers. Damage seems same. So more Accuracy, Defenses, and Endurance.

That is still true for PoE, innit? Not in the traditional sense, but they do allow you to pick locks above your current skill level. But it's the trap disarm that's a bitch. The highest I found in the game was Mechanic 13, and I recall it came relatively early. To get there without a Rogue, my Mechanic guy basically had to not level anything else.

You mean Gloves of Manipulation was worth getting?

They get +15 Accuracy and +15 to all of their Defences. They might also have higher Endurance pools, though don't quote me on that. By the why, whilst the Wiki is still far from perfect, it seems that someone(s) have been doing a lot of work improving it recently. It's nowhere near as incomplete as it was a few months ago. 15 Accuracy and Defences are tolerable. But what I read also was that their damage and HP were significantly higher - something along the 33-50 percent range - in one of the posts I recall reading. If that is old news or plain false, then perhaps I might give it a go. I have been just traumatized by playing the last Elder Scrolls game in that mode. It wasn't even hard. It was just tedious beyond relief - as well as completely immersion-breaking and downright stupid. Edit: Also, I assume that the in-game encyclopedia won't reflect the PotD values when I check?

How much of a stat buff do PotD mobs get precisely? I have heard that much of online sources on difficulty scaling - including the one on the Wikia - is out-dated. So any latest, precise info would be appreciated.

Isn't Stronghold stuff ultimately all obtainable if you abuse rest enough? I had Azurro come by like 8 times the last game...

Is Gloves of Manipulation worthwhile? The Glove slot is sort of a premium for me, as I reserve it for only Accuracy or Swift Action generally. But then I do need Mechanic to level 13 to disable all traps from my experience, and that's a bitch to get.

Note that if you're not playing on expert mode and you use an AoE spell like Fireball then you'll see a template representing it's AoE, and (unless your Intellect is 10 or below) that template will be two colours. The outer colour represents the additional AoE gained from Intellect. *As a side note, the actual area of effect increases from 19.6m2 to 50.3m2, an increase of 156%, not 60%. Ah, ok. Mosspit already explained my specific puzzle, but this additional info from you is also very helpful. I kept seeing two circles regarding not just AoE spells but on stuff like Chanter Phrases and Paladin auras, and I assume the second circle is what my Intellect added? Thanks!

Ah, ok. So Intelligence increase the AoE radius, but that that increase in AoE radius only affects foes?

Doubtful. I think the power of Chanters isn't that well know, and it was even less so in the past. Hmmm, true. Devs rarely see OP potentials unless expert players point it out to them - repeatedly.

A combination of the two is probably wisest. No, you just have to be a little more cautious in your AoE placing. Also unless I am wrong about Intellect AoE being Foe only (and I am fairly certain I'm not), higher Intellect characters actually have an easier time placing AoE spells without doing friendly fire. I am confused. What are "Intellect AoE"?