SaruNi

It depends? If you want a spiritshifted Druid with Flame Shield and Mirrored Image, for example, it is. It's okay for self-only buffs. Wizards have several. Vanilla or Rejuvenation Druids have one from their spiritshift form (cat druid +speed is good for casting). Ciphers have a couple but only at high tiers (not accessible for mutliclasses in current beta). Priests have their spiritual weapons which presently apply their damage bonus to spells as well but that's probably not intended. But with the exception of cat speed and +spell damage from spiritual weapon it seems like the synergy applies almost exclusively to weapons attacks, tanking, and a few wizard self-buffs for improving accuracy / concentration / speed. For a pure caster at range, it seems very limited currently.

As for spells: The UI and tooltips aren't always accurate, but it seems like summoned creatures and summoned weapons only get a bonus to duration. Apparently the damage bonus for most spells/abilities isn't getting listed in the tooltips or the UI, just the penetration and accuracy bonuses (except for Soul Ignition, which has no penetration listed in the tooltip and is treated as 0 penetration in the UI combat log, but whose tooltip lists a significant bonus to damage from power level)?....

"Weird"? The whole thing is different from what we're accustomed to. Not using the pistol in melee is counterintuitive. The whole fantasy genre is weird AF (for that matter, technology, logic, and science are deeply weird to most people... if you mean "illogical" or "counterintuitive" or "ridiculous" or "different" you should just write that). The idea is that you're using a pistol while also holding a sword, or holding a pistol while using a sword, because you might rapidly transition from melee to ranged. If you're trying to shoot a pistol while simultaneously holding a sword, you're not just single-wielding, you're juggling two weapons at once and operating one of them with just a single hand (without the other hand to steady the pistol). So it makes about as much logical sense for the dual-wielding bonus to apply. From a strategy perspective, the dual-wielding bonus to action speed may be more useful than the single-wield accuracy bonus---at least it gives you more options.

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives. We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade. Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC. So you mean in POE 1 vanilla Druid has better DD than other casters and so let they have another 60% more in POE 2? When I'm talking about balance, I'm not saying every caster should have equal DD, I mean they are balanced, some can have more DD some have more CC, and now if Lash is allowed on spells, then this balance is messed up, and they need to balance it again. Doesn't make sense to me. The 40% bonus for the levels we can actually compare right now is well-balanced with the main Wizard spell DD build (Evoker) or Cipher single spell DD build (Ascendant Soul Ignition). You only get one Druid talent point per level so having to use 2 of them (one of them a higher-level point) significantly limits spell choice. The Fury Druid subclass doesn't get any damage bonus, just penetration, whereas Evoker and Ascendant subclasses get both damage and penetration. Even with the 40% damage bonus (which from reading the tooltip I always assumed applied to spells too), no one was suggesting that Druid spell DD is one of the best classes or in any way OP or even particularly good. It seems worse than Evoker, which several people have mentioned as a good spell DD class. To speculate accurately about whether an extra +20% from an end-game talent will make it unbalanced we would need to know what end-game abilities the other classes get. It's also more complicated than a direct comparison of damage %: spell DD has been massively nerfed by penetration/armor, misses, and casting time. Wizards have one fast-cast DD spell that never misses and another that does raw damage. In contrast, Druids have only one fast-cast DD spell and it does the most easily resisted damage, fire damage. And Druids have few ways around those difficulties in comparison to Wizards or Ciphers, because Druids have iirc no accuracy self-buffs, and the only penetration bonus is from the Fury subclass.

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives. We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade. Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC. So the argument that vanilla Druid and vanilla Wizard need to have the same DD spell DPS doesn't seem particularly compelling. *And* Wizards get access to very good spellcasting self-buffs like Eldritch Aim, and probably even better ones at higher levels.

Currently the +40% bonus from upgrading once (all we have in the beta) combined with cat speed about matches the +30% echo and +2 power level bonus for a Wizard Evoker with Fleet Feet/Alacrity. If Druids will be able to upgrade a second time at higher levels then Wizards can be given high-level buffs as well (or more powerful spells). I think you should compare non subclass druid with non subclass wizard, druid has 60% lash bonus in late game, wizard has not. And you include wizard's spells into the comparison, which is not fair. Btw if you wonder about the last 20% lash damage, take a look here Even so, Druids have to spend three ability points, including one extremely high level ability point. Whereas their Fury subclass only gets +1 penetration to druid elemental spells at the cost of cat druid speed. Cat Druid build for maximum spell DPS isn't technically a subclass, but since you're limited to that form for the entire game, it effectively is like a subclass (and without that speed bonus Evoker is strictly better, at least for the levels in the beta). And we *should* take base spell damage into account when deciding whether spell damage is balanced across classes (if the base damage of spell X is greater than the base damage of spell Y, but you can spend a skill point on a passive that makes Y equal to X...). High-level Wizard spells in PoE 1 were significantly more powerful than high-level Druid spells.

Currently the +40% bonus from upgrading once (all we have in the beta) combined with cat speed about matches the +30% echo and +2 power level bonus for a Wizard Evoker with Fleet Feet/Alacrity. If Druids will be able to upgrade a second time at higher levels then Wizards can be given high-level buffs as well (or more powerful spells). Boroer as I wrote I agree it seems highly unlikely that they'd make such a major omission from the tooltip, even though the tooltip is clearly incomplete because it doesn't mention the lash at all. But while probably not intended, it would be an interesting way to let Priest DD spells equal Evoker or cat Druid spells (when you factor in DPS boost from speed self-buffs), though only after a long casting time.

Biting Whip and the Chanter lash ability only apply to weapons, right? And they specify that they only apply to weapons in the description. From a balancing perspective having Wildstrike apply to Druid spells seems reasonable and fits the description. The priest lash applying to spells isn't necessarily a bad idea but that does seem unintended ergo bug-like. Even if you do summoned weapon + wildstrike lash (multiclass limited to 20% version in beta) with Cat speed that's probably around the same as what a Nature Godlike Evoker gets on average just for casting Deleterious Alacrity and the Missiles spells (which can't miss)... without having to wait for the summoned weapon. I don't like the idea that lash should apply to spells, if it does, then all lash should apply to spells, or all does not. The idea of a "lash" applying to spells does seem a little illogical and aesthetically unpleasing, but if they just call it a +% damage instead (of a "lash") it seems fine. And it's not confusing if the tooltip makes it clear when the bonus will apply.

Biting Whip and the Chanter lash ability only apply to weapons, right? And they specify that they only apply to weapons in the description. From a balancing perspective having Wildstrike apply to Druid spells seems reasonable and fits the description. The priest lash applying to spells isn't necessarily a bad idea but that does seem unintended ergo bug-like. Even if you do summoned weapon + wildstrike lash (multiclass limited to 20% version in beta) with Cat speed that's probably around the same as what a Nature Godlike Evoker gets on average just for casting Deleterious Alacrity and the Missiles spells (which can't miss)... without having to wait for the summoned weapon.

The description of Wildstrike refers to damage, not specifically weapon damage or damage from spiritshift attacks (just like the Restoration Druid's bonus to rejuvenation spells when shifted). It's one of the best features for a DD caster druid (+40% damage with the upgrade), which would otherwise be severely underpowered relative to Evoker et cetera.... OTOH the description of the Priest's summoned weapon gives no indication whatsoever that it would increase damage in general. But it also doesn't mention the lash at all. Perhaps the Priest's damaging spells are so underwhelming compared to PoE 1 because you're expected to summon the weapon first and, like the lash, they just forgot to add that to the description (or perhaps as in PoE 1 the better ones only come at later levels than the beta presents).

Added duration isn't usually useful because weapon autoattacks kill so quickly that combat doesn't last very long. Once most weapon DPS is slowed down, duration might become more valuable. But iirc it is a pretty long base duration.

Yeah, check this :D I think can top that: try Sharpshooter/Monk with a blasting rod, Swift Flurry and Driving Flight. Driving Flight doubles the blasting (every projectile triggers two blasts: one normal and one from Driving Flight) and every blast has the AoE-potential for a crit. Usually you oly need one shot for a group of 10 spawned dummies. I guess it's even deadly and superpowerful when Swift Flurry gets fixed. You can still get 4 crits/hits per victim from one shot. Does Swift Flurry not work with the blunderbuss AoE modal?... the "primary weapon attack" active abilities don't but it's a passive.....

Yeah druids will probably be the most viable dual caster class due to its martial abilities that can synergize with buffs. Priest/wizard or multidruid multi classing druids that does not want to focus on physical attacks in spirit form will have a harder time though. Iam begining to lean on multiclassed casters having fewer class resources (ie. fewer spells per encounter) rather than having lower spell levels on their casts since then you won't have to worry about the spell synergy. However, if there are some super powerful self buffs there will probably be some crazy class synergy between a physical and caster class that might end up too powerful, which would be a major risk with this approach. Still if the objective is to make every kind of character viable this might be the best approach. Currently spells have two major limitations: - Most spells have slow casting speed - They tend to miss (usually Accuracy vs. Fortitude/Reflex/Will) and most can't graze (though some long-casts like Fireball can) So buffs which improve casting speed and don't take long to cast are very useful. Cat Druid Flurry = instant +33% speed, Wizard Fleet Feet quick cast 0 recovery +5 dex = +15% speed that stacks with the Cat Druid bonus. Wizards have Eldritch Aim to help with Accuracy (and grant grazing for all spells). There are very few fast cast damaging spells, and they're all level 1 or 2. Single class Wizard has maximum 2 (or 4 if you count Grimoire Slam) per encounter, single class Druid has 2 / encounter, multi-class has 4 to 6.... Likewise, most of the Priest subclasses get either some Wizard or some Druid spells... so if you multiclass, you could get 2 priest casts of the spell and 2 wizard/druid casts of the same spell per encounter.

For most damaging spells, multiclassing translates to 0.5 less penetration (0.25 per power level). No effect on base damage (with the notable exception of Soul Ignition which has 0 penetration but a significant % damage boost). It only has an effect if you're right near the threshold where pen = AR or pen = 2*AR... and it's functionally equivalent to reducing AR or boosting penetration through buffs/debuffs (which grant much larger bonuses/maluses). Edit: power levels have additional effects, some of which aren't listed in the UI. Detailed here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95031-arcane-assault-gains-no-functional-bonus-from-power-level/?do=findComment&comment=1960512 Hey thanks for the info, powerlevels is still quite obfuscated so it's nice learn some more on the mechanic. However, does the statement of multiclassing 2 spellcasters not synergize well not hold true if the impact of the loss of spellevels is smaller? The point i was trying to make was that this combo does not only does not synergize but is actually counterproductive of each individual class. This due to the reliance of spells which has no synergy between classes at all. Wizards/Priests/Druids are limited to at most 2 casts per level per class per encounter. Overall, multi-classing seems to give you one extra cast per encounter... a slight benefit. Sure, spells would almost always work better with two casters rather than one, with the exception of self-only buffs. Most of the subclass bonuses only apply to spells from that class (Druid Fury's penetration bonus only applies to Druid elemental spells... although Wildstrike elemental bonuses do apply to all). But the Wizard self-only buffs are really good. So's Spiritshift Cat Form (+33% speed, stacks with Dexterity Inspirations like Wizard's) and the "radius of caster" druid and priest spells. Priests also have the summoned weapon with the long casting time that's otherwise pretty good... and you could technically speed up the casting time by multiclassing Wizard or maybe Cat druid, though I'm not sure what happens if you summon a weapon while spiritshifted....

I believe one of the goals when designing Pillars attribute system was to avoid the sort of situation where certain values would offer significantly bigger bonuses than most. Making Penetration work like this would go against that aim. What I meant is that Accuracy could go up by non-integer values. Since they're already doing that with Penetration, there isn't any implicit rule that increments have to be integers to keep from confusing people or whatever. And any scaling problems can be addressed... by scaling (the bonuses to make them sufficiently equivalent).

Good catch! At least Perception is required for spotting traps... but you only need one char with high Per in your party for that. To be fair though, either perception or dex was often a dump stat for defensive chars in PoE1, right? So if Resolve is going to get spell/healing power, what the hell does Perception gain? Or are we going to go round robin on each attribute as the dump stat? The mechanical issue is you can't add a half point of accuracy per Per point, and if you went up to 2 points of accuracy per Per point, then that's a 4% dps increase, much higher than any other stat. Why not? Penetration goes up 0.25 points per power level and frequently has a non-integer value.

Seems you get 1 extra missile every 2 power levels. Since the base is 3 missiles, each missile should be equivalent to about +33.333% damage.... so about +66.666% damage from Nature Godlike Evoker relative to base. Multiplied by 1.3 on average for the echo effect for about 86.666%? Also +1 penetration. And apparently power level is supposed to increase damage per projectile a little bit too, though I'm not seeing that in the damage reported by the UI. The 0 recovery time for Wizard self-buffs makes the Nature Godlike bonus much easier to use for Wizards than for Druids (Cat form speed bonus doesn't count as an Inspiration and Nature's Vigor has a 5 second recovery time).

If we don't, then there is no way for a Devoted to gain bonus penetration and crit damage with that particular summoned weapon. Right now, Devoted/Conjurer (or Devoted/Wizard, for that matter, though if you're going to focus on summoned weapons it pays to be Conjurer) is forced to pick staves as that's the only summoned weapon available for level one. When you get 3rd-level spells, you get Kalakoth's Minor Blights in which you can't be proficient even if you respec. Then you get Citzal Spirit Lance—upon reaching 10th level. Having to wait 10 levels to get your chosen summoned weapon is not my idea of fun; at best, you'd have to respec (but respeccing every time you want to use a different summoned weapon is tedious and still counts as a way to work around the subclass's limitation.) As for nomenclature, saying a weapon as a universal proficiency suggests that every character is automatically proficient with it. If that's not the case, 'cause the Devoted is excluded, the information is misleading. People will wonder why their character is not proficient in the use of a universal weapon. From the description, Devoted is not supposed to be able to become proficient with ranged weapons. So even if there were a proficiency they couldn't get it.... The subclass is called "Devoted" because they're devoted to one weapon type. It would make more sense to complain about the Black Jacket not being able to switch weapons after conjuring a summoned weapon without losing the summoned weapon (just tested, if you switch to another weapon and then try to switch back to the summoned weapon it's gone, at least for Kakaloth's Minor Blights). Seems like it should be pretty easy to mod in extra summoned weapons (or change the existing ones) if you really want to. Or they could have "Grimoire of Summoned Weapons" with a whole bunch of 1st level weapon summons....

Not necessarily a bug, but power level only gives Arcane Assault a bonus to penetration... which never gets applied because it does raw damage.

For most damaging spells, multiclassing translates to 0.5 less penetration (0.25 per power level). No effect on base damage (with the notable exception of Soul Ignition which has 0 penetration but a significant % damage boost). It only has an effect if you're right near the threshold where pen = AR or pen = 2*AR... and it's functionally equivalent to reducing AR or boosting penetration through buffs/debuffs (which grant much larger bonuses/maluses). Edit: power levels have additional effects, some of which aren't listed in the UI. Detailed here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95031-arcane-assault-gains-no-functional-bonus-from-power-level/?do=findComment&comment=1960512

disagree. the entire point o' devoted is you get big advantages with One weapon type. should be disadvantages for using other weapons. universal and soulbound shouldn't be a complete and obvious nullification o' devoted drawbacks. am suspecting, once devoted is fixed, most folks choosing the devoted subclass is gonna opt for a weapon with multiple damage types. sword does slash and pierce. warhammer does crush and pierce. choose a devoted weapon which only does one kinda damage type is gonna be quite painful when facing a foe with immunity or particular high armour vs. ______. such a result is as it should be. devoted benefits is big, so penalty should hurt. a soulbound or summoned weapon which do not provide devoted penetration bonus but nevertheless suppresses devoted accuracy penalty will still be o' great value to the devoted. strikes us as good balancing. HA! Good Fun! So are you suggesting that the Devoted benefits should never apply to summoned or soulbound weapons? I'd rather have them work with summoned and soulbound weapons that match the Devoted's chosen weapon type. Most multiclass combinations effectively only get one summoned melee weapon anyway. For Priests, that weapon embodies their deity. It fits really well with Devoted from a RP standpoint and seems like a fun concept to play (and not OP because of the time it takes to summon). Likewise, a soulbound weapon forms a soul connection with the character... similar to the way the Devoted already has a connection with one weapon type. If they match, the Devoted should get the benefit. If they don't... the Devoted should respec or not use the weapon. A Devoted using a Soulbound weapon that isn't the weapon they're Devoted to doesn't make sense from a rp standpoint and removing the penalty just for soulbound weapons doesn't seem called for. Soulbound weapons weren't OP relative to other special weapons in PoE 1 so I doubt they'll be too OP in PoE 2. But do let them respec their single weapon proficiency. That way Devoted/Conjuror that uses summoned weapons won't have to choose between using the staff or waiting to get the Spirit Lance (not that a Conjuror needs to use summoned weapons at all... those are just two spells, they've got many more Conjuration spells that are useful to a melee character, not to mention all the Enchantment buffs that have 0 recovery time and therefore no penalty for using as a Conjuror). And people who create a Devoted and change their mind about weapon type (maybe make an uninformed decision and get stuck with a single damage type weapon) won't be forced to start over from the beginning. Sure there's potential for some meta-gaming abuse (if you're willing to slog to back to a place to respec frequently, and single encounters don't have enough enemies with strong resistances to different damage types) but I think it's outweighed by ergonomics....

If you were to change your bodily form into that of another person, would you automatically gain all their knowledge and skills? In most fantasy, the general answer is no. But if you changed your brain into the exact physical form of another, then their knowledge would be encoded in it... what about druid spiritshift? In part, animal abilities are seen as instinctive rather than learned skills. Are ogre club swings more like animal instincts or more like something learned? Could a skilled weapon wielder change into the body of an ogre and retain some of that skill? Also, with druids it's not just a shapeshift, it's a "Spirit" shift... druids have a deep spiritual connection their animal forms and the natural world that teaches them how to use their form's abilities. Also, the idea of a Devoted being highly skilled in clubs and then changing into an ogre to wield them seems very cool. The concept of the Devoted subclass is that you specialize in just one type of weapon, and get massive bonuses for that weapon, in exchange for penalties to all other weapon types. It seems like you just don't like the concept. You really just want a fighter who also has good penetration.

From the description, isn't the Devoted iirc supposed to only be able to to be proficient in one melee weapon, and nothing else? So the current "bug" is that the Devoted can currently get multiple weapon proficiencies, and can be proficient in ranged weapons.... No, the problem is that if you want to play a devoted who relies on a summoned weapon, you're forced into choosing staffs, because that's the only summoned weapon available until level 10. Even as a straight fighter, with no subclass, you *only get staff weapon until level 10*. I'd *REALLY* love various types of summoned weapons added to the game with different effects; I'd dearly adore playing a fighter/mage who uses summoned weapons and self-buffs. Aren't priest and druid able to summon weapon too? Firebrand, Priest spiritual weapons. Yes, so if you go priest/wizard you have many options but basically no active combat abilities and not-great stats. Or you can go priest/fighter or wizard/fighter, and have a very tiny selection of weapons available in either multiclass combination. You'd really miss "Into the Fray" and "Mule Kick" that much (those iirc are the only active fighter abilities we have so far)? It's better than sitting there and autoattacking non-stop? You can still turn the weapon modals on/off to toggle their advantages and disadvantages. "Into the Fray' isn't weapon-related at all, and while Mule Kick does rely on a primary attack, from a rp perspective it really has very little to do with the weapon. If you're a Wizard, you get spells like Expose Vulnerabilities, all the self buffs, the debuffs, etc... though if you want to debuff with your weapon modal iirc the only options are Eothas's Flail (-25 reflex for 10 seconds) and Skaen's off-hand club (-25 will for 10 seconds). Perhaps worth noting that Devoted isn't as good with Magran or Skaen because their summoned weapons are dual-wield (Magran pistol and sword, Skaen stiletto iirc and club). As reach weapons, the staff and pike gain strategic interest through positioning and moving around (plus there's the "immunity to engagement" from Deleterious Alacrity of Motion"). With the staff's modal your turning it on to improve your defense and turning it off for offense, and with the pike's modal you're turning it on to lower your enemy's deflection (-10 deflection for base 10 seconds on hit) and off to improve your damage... so there's plenty to actively micromanage. Btw if Ogre Clubs are treated as Clubs and gain the modal---the image of an Ogre clubbing people to lower their Will defense is kind of hilarious. In a good way....

From the description, isn't the Devoted iirc supposed to only be able to to be proficient in one melee weapon, and nothing else? So the current "bug" is that the Devoted can currently get multiple weapon proficiencies, and can be proficient in ranged weapons.... No, the problem is that if you want to play a devoted who relies on a summoned weapon, you're forced into choosing staffs, because that's the only summoned weapon available until level 10. Even as a straight fighter, with no subclass, you *only get staff weapon until level 10*. I'd *REALLY* love various types of summoned weapons added to the game with different effects; I'd dearly adore playing a fighter/mage who uses summoned weapons and self-buffs. Aren't priest and druid able to summon weapon too? Firebrand, Priest spiritual weapons. Yes, so if you go priest/wizard you have many options but basically no active combat abilities and not-great stats. Or you can go priest/fighter or wizard/fighter, and have a very tiny selection of weapons available in either multiclass combination. You'd really miss "Into the Fray" and "Mule Kick" that much (those iirc are the only active fighter abilities we have so far)? For stats, Conjuror still gets access to Enchantment and Priests and Druids have lots of self-buffs. There could be additional conjure weapon spells in grimoires. (Maybe even summon weapon scrolls.) Druids will probably get a version of that "throwing rotting exploding skulls" spell from PoE 1 too.

From the description, isn't the Devoted iirc supposed to only be able to to be proficient in one melee weapon, and nothing else? So the current "bug" is that the Devoted can currently get multiple weapon proficiencies, and can be proficient in ranged weapons.... No, the problem is that if you want to play a devoted who relies on a summoned weapon, you're forced into choosing staffs, because that's the only summoned weapon available until level 10. Even as a straight fighter, with no subclass, you *only get staff weapon until level 10*. I'd *REALLY* love various types of summoned weapons added to the game with different effects; I'd dearly adore playing a fighter/mage who uses summoned weapons and self-buffs. Aren't priest and druid able to summon weapon too? Firebrand, Priest spiritual weapons. Yes, and proficiencies / Devoted work with them. Too bad none of them iirc have special variations on their weapon type's modal. Hopefully for Conjuror/Devoted they'll be able to respec (including the Devoted proficiency) after reaching whatever level grants them the Pike summons. Another thing to look forward to....