peddroelm

0.2 not 0.25 . The elemental perks provide 20% bonus . 3.04 test https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-6?do=findComment&comment=1859690 .

Frenzy is one of the abilities that strongly encourages next 0 to ability recovery . At 50 recovery (plate) you will lose a lot of the buff's duration waiting out the recovery for its activation. It also makes it hard to time the activation right (so you can attack with the bonus exactly when the enemies reach the barb ). Gulping DAOM before activating frenzy should eliminate frenzy's activation recovery completely ? EDIT: of course the speed bonus is suppressed .

Could try something funny with combusting wounds. 6 * blunderbuss party. 36 projectiles per full salvo * combusting wounds damage ) .. Maybe take a chanter to help with reloads.

old game version test .. Combusting Wounds (tested of ring) damage per activation is 5 * (1 + might_mod) - TargetBurnDR * 0.25 It does NOT benefit at all from scion of the flame (BUG REPORT) .. It will trigger on DOT effects (tested with deep wounds and searing flames) ... https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1674511

The /per rest speed increase is pretty ****ty. Completely nullified by DOAM (can't go bellow 0 recovery) and ...is shot duration ONCE per rest. Boar's massive DR ignoring, wounding lash is on all the time. Who balances these things ?!

Don't forget the cat attacks about twice as fast at 0 recovery (DAOM potion) (same damage per hit - ignoring the wounding lash). 0.6666 seconds between attacks and boar 1 second between attacks (0 DEX). Boar needs high might and very high target DR to close that significant damage gap.

Druid + DAOM potion drank before shape shift should attack at 0 recovery (dual weapon wield and no armor penalty) . Two weapon fighting should also enable vulnerable attack at 0 recovery. It might not seem much but at 0.6666s attack speed (for 0 DEX cat form) it will add a bit before the lash multipliers. (on the other hand druids don't get many perks) At 0 recovery cat/Hiravias druid has huge DPS advantage since it has the attack speed of small weapons (almost twice as fast as the rest of the forms). The rest of the forms attack as at 1s attack speed at 0 DEX but the boar has a massive 20% wound (DR ignoring multiplicative component that is extra multiplied by Might Mod again) damage built in. So cat form almost double the DPS of the other forms except extreme might boar that might even overtake it vs very high DR targets. ONE CANNOT IGNORE LASH (multiplicative) damage in the comparison since druid & rogue cannot get the same amounts (druid can get way more) and at high damage numbers amount for a ton of extra damage. One can probably reach above 100% lash damage components on druid which pretty much doubles the DPS (requires party support / chanter burn aura / depends on the various target's DR amounts vs the different damage types ) . And yes druid (NEEDs) / benefits way more from (party) accuracy buffs. As noted above their accuracy progression "sucks" compared to rogue, and due to the huge base damage , the (shape-shifting) druid benefits/suffers way more from the hit quality damage modifiers (*0 miss, -0.5 graze, 0 , 0.5 crit). In the "real world" druid will often lose a lot of potential DPS due to accuracy issues vs high deflection targets unless properly supported (ACCURACY BUFFS and deflection debuffs) which while critical to any type of damage user that uses deflection for hit checks is particularly effective for the shape-shifting druid. Druid can use savage attack while the rogue cannot (suppresses reckless damage bonus ). Very worthwhile on cat form AFTER you fix the accuracy issues. Fast weapons are the way to go for max DPS rogue (almost half attack speed duration while the base damage difference is way smaller ). Unique weapons do throw a bit of a spanner in the calculations (sharp sabre/ annihilating/ spirit of decay bittercut) but I'm pretty sure (dualing?) the wounding dagger should still end up comfortably on top vs most DR levels. (doubly so with obscene might rogue). Fast/small weapons make for a character that is more "responsive" in combat and can react faster to new developments on the battlefield. Finishing blow is not enough to justify the slow, harder hitting 1s attack speed weapons. Optimal finishing blow use [ NEXT TO 0 OVERKILL DAMAGE] requires MODS to display the numeric remaining hitpoints of enemies and pocket calculator / app to calculate [minimal] finish blow damage per hit based on the remaining target hit-points (and rogue skills/equipment/active buffs) EVERY time the target sustains any damage. Game doesn't show even max enemy hit-points in game (bestiary/meta-knowledge) and doesn't even display CORRECTLY normal attack's damage range most of the time (LYING CHARACTER SCREEN), let alone finishing blow's damage range vs targets (COULD MAYBE MODDED TO DISPLAY SELECTED SKILL DAMAGE RANGE FOR BOTH WEAPONS ON HOVER OVER TARGET (considering the variable amounts of hitpoint loss after the first hand hit)). (3 damage ranges for first hand (graze, normal,crit) and 3 damage rages (graze,hit,crit) for the second hand for EVERY first hand damage range; 12 damage ranges in total; that hover-box damage range simulator for dual wield finishing blow would cover half the screen ) . As it stands (designed ?) finishing blow is most of the time just a tool for massive overkill and meaningless high combat log damage numbers. (it will be either activating too early doing next to no multiplicative damage and not killing the target OR way too late - massive meaningless overkill and waste of the ability when auto attack alone would've finished the job). The game currently doesn't provide anywhere nearly enough tools to allow close to optimal use of the ability and judging by the ability description card (bogus) shows exactly how much the developers care about the matter.

Stuff like that is why I asked for and play with scripts off (full manual control) . With full manual control (micromanagement) you get to decide exactly who bites whom where and how many times.

Answering this question with some degree of accuracy/precision (and others related like Is it worth investing in companion damage perks OR is it better to focus on the ranger instead since you can get the ranger to attack with no recovery but the companions will always attack slowly ) prompted me to try and build a melee/ranged dps comparator app for POE (including animal companion DPS // Shapeshifter DPS//Summoned weapons// etc) . Sadly I kind of lost interest at the moment since it was going very slow due to my lack of programming knowledge/practice .. Might still happen at some point even with a reduction of the features I was originally envisioning for it.. I can run some numbers "by hand" for particular situations (level/build/gear/etc..) but the results would be without much meaning lacking a means to quickly compare with other setups/classes ..

Without mods/new features - one way would be to record the play-trough on video with the detailed combat log in view . Then re-play the video and write the companion damage numbers on a excel table. When you're done (a couple of years later ) just do a sum function on the damage column .

Shapeshift druids have some slight accuracy issues.

...for one think reckless assault and savage attack suppress the 20% damage(already mentioned in the thread). I started working on a POE DPS comparator app (I think I have the damage and attack speed math reasonably well figured out but kind of lost steam along the way ... almost 0 previous experience with C# programming really slows things down ). Might still happen someday ..

I think shadow step currently provides 0% damage (the same +20% damage modal used by reckless and savage attack. )

FOA can attack just as fast and cost two wounds instead of one .. (significantly less damage output but you can still use it to spam rooting pain if you discharge it against a target pinned to a wall so it cannot be knocked back out of range).

.. Cleansing Flames (Priest Level 6) damage per tick is apparently 30 * ( 1 + mightmod) - TargetBurnDR * 0.25 .. It does speed up DOT effects (tested with Deep Wounds DOT and own DOT) .. It does NOT benefit at all from scion of the flame (BUG REPORT) .. It does scale duration (thus number of damage ticks, thus damage inflicted) with hit quality and Intellect mod . Combusting Wounds (tested of ring) damage per activation is 5 * (1 + might_mod) - TargetBurnDR * 0.25 It does NOT benefit at all from scion of the flame (BUG REPORT) .. .. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1674511 my memory betrays me

are you certain about that ? I do (vaguely) remember it working with DOT effects and even with combustion wounds ..

At first I thought Fighters get +5 extra base accuracy and disciplined barrage +20. Clear +10 ACC win compared to paladin. But Paladins can get +15 ACC boost that would get suppressed by disciplined barrage on fighter (potion or scroll) but stack with sworn enemy so in fact Paladin can be the better charmer by +5 ACC vs the hated target . Still if that charm roll would be so important you might want the marking weapon in somebody else's hand to increase the chances by adding the extra +10 ACC.

100 dragon hits to do 1k damage ..that would take a lot of time (assuming you could survive them all). Frenzy and other buffs will expire long before that. Wounding dagger with 0 recovery would probably do orders of magnitude more damage during this time.

That's really cool. I never knew it worked after base damage had been calculated. So if your dude did 27.5 – 40 Damage with a 150% damage modifier on a large 1H weapon, confident aim would add 27.5*0.2 = 5.5 to your minimum roll, which means 33 – 40. That means it's much better than it would first appear. what do you mean after ? In my mathematical model for the damage formula confident aim just changes the min value of the weapon's BDR (base damage range) . Min=Min*1.2 (first step in the calculations) . The RNG roll will provide a number within this modified BDR that will then be multiplied by the sum of damage mods (might, fighting spirit, two handed weapon style, hit quality,etc etc) . In some cases (ex. firesword from forgemaster's gloves ) this could add ~10 to the damage range before DR subtraction (this is also before the (multiplicative) lashes are calculated ). It tightens the weapons's BDR to (Min*1.2 , Max) and the average BDR to (Min*1.2+Max)/2 from (Min+Max)/2. Adds 0.1*Min to the average BDR.

Pretty much ALL abilities get the +1ACC/lvl ( way too many to list - knockdown, bash, clear out, flaggelant path, rooting pain, carnage, .. 2 pages of etc..). Dual wielding CAN in fact be EXTREMELY beneficial to primary attack abilities (Force OF ANGUISH, SAP) (shaving 50 of the ability's recovery just because of dual wielding - which is the recovery of the main hand weapon . Two weapon style will reduce this by further 20 assuming there are 2 weapons equipped to activate the perk ) ... Dual wielding makes it almost easy to get 0 recovery for primary attack abilities . (the ability to spam force of anguish long prones without recovery - that's got a lot of combat utility)

25%. An example from my test thread [20.7 * (0.3 + 0.1) - 14 * 0.25 ] + [20.7 * (0.15 + 0.1) -14*0.25] = 6.455 greater wildstrike adds a separate 15% lash (Same as with intense flames) .. So is 30% lash vs 25% DR + 15% lash vs 25% DR .. The belt ups both lashes by 10% so 30% to 45% and 15% to 25% and you end up with 45% lash vs 25% DR + second lash 25% vs 25% DR .. Can also multiply by 1.2 before the DR subtraction if the relevant elemental perk is enabled.. ((20.7 * (0.3 + 0.1) * 1.2) - (14 * 0.25)) + ((20.7 * (0.15 + 0.1) * 1.2) - (14 * 0.25)) = 9.146

clear out is not primary attack since (contrary to its description it makes no use of the equipped weapon/s - way inferior chance to knock down an individual target compared to knockdown ability executed with accurate weapons ). Thus the accuracy on weapon will not help and neither will on strike/on crit effects on weapon. Primary weapon recovery will also not influence (help speed up the recovery) - only generic attack speed bonuses and the armor recovery component .

In my latest suicidal melee party POTD playtrough FoA on an Monk un-optimized for it emerged head and shoulder above all abilities (low cheese melee party only context), again and again as the trump card enabling me to win otherwise lost fights. Enemies just aren't quite as threatening or damaging when they're resting peacefully with their wheels up .. (prone affliction is hard crowd control preventing target's actions but doesn't debuff quite as strongly as paralyze, stun, petrify.) Force of Anguish causes a primary(melee or ranged) attack vs deflection (at autoattack attack and attack_recovery animation speeds) vs deflection that, should it not miss does autoattack damage and triggers a secondary hit-check vs fortitude for knockback and long base duration prone affliction. (hard CC) When optimized for, it should be able to drop 5 enemies in around 3 seconds at normal speed for 10+ seconds. ACCURACY The accuracy used for the vs Deflection hit-check is the accuracy for auto-attack + 1*Lvl bonus accuracy per char level all(most) abilities get. Base_class_accuracy + (Perception -10) + 3*(Lvl-1) + Weapon Focus + OnWeapon Accuracy + 1*Lvl + SingleWeaponStyle + Transcendent Suffering/TLP + Best of (Disciplined Barrage (fighter) 20, Scroll of valor 15, War Paint potion 15 ,Eldrich aim potion 15, Zealous focus paladin aura 6, gallant's focus aura 4, Priest Blessing 5 lvl 1 spell ) + Survival Accuracy Bonus vs + Marked Target effect + Coordinating weapon + etc etc Of course we need that initial strike to not miss (and strike as often as possible, more on that bellow) but what also concerns us greatly is the SECOND FORTITUDE CHECK. We really need that not to miss, moreover we really like it to crit for extra length prone duration. So lets take a look on the accuracy for the critical fortitude hit-check keeping in mind POTD foes typically have shamelessly high fortitude resists. The accuracy used for the vs Fortitude hit-check is similar to the accuracy used for the damage hit-check with a few key differences. -accuracy on weapon applies (Not a difference BUT not all weapon attack abilities benefit from this - notably ranger's stunning strikes, so lets appreciate that we do get it here.) -accuracy from 1 handed style ,Marksman, Transcendent Suffering, The Long Pain DO NOT APPLY (this sadly disqualifies unarmed melee and ranged attacks as our main means of spamming wheels up goodwill. The measured restraint rapier available early provides +17 accuracy THAT WORKS for FOA/STUNNING FIST). This forces us to use accurate weapons (noble rapiers,daggers;peasant spears or ruffian clubs). Ruffian falls right off without re-training since blesca's labor with is potentially 21 ACC is only available in act 3. Plus it does crush damage with is the same damage type as the melee and ranged fists available to the character. Sadly not a lot of good spears are available in this game, especially for a goodly aligned party that forgoes Cladhalíath. Sadly the "disoriented" debuff on Vile Loner's is applied after the fortitude check. (useless when you want chain 1 hit prones.) ATTACK SPEED AND RECOVERY (at autoattack attack and attack_recovery animation speeds) Spears also 1 second attack animation vs 0.636.. seconds for a rapier attack (at 10 dex). Again noticeable when the goal is to wheel up ALL THE ENEMIES STILL STANDING ASAP. While not much more could be done or gained with the attack component of the animation (except massive DEX investment), lets see what can be done about the attack_recovery component. (it is possible and we would like to drop attack_recovery completely) Without dropping a page long formula covering the worst case scenarios in terms of complexity we should first investigate how it works at low levels (early game) without much modifiers in place. Attack Recovery for 1 handed use. 10 dex, Plate armor on. 1 * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5) = 2.5 seconds for single spear and 2 handed melee weapons. (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5) = 1.5833 seconds for rapiers and stilettos. (rapiers and stilettos are a tiny bit faster than the rest of the small melee weapons). Attack Recovery when dual wielding. 10 dex, Plate armor on. Dual Rapiers (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5) = 1.05555 . seconds AS LONG AS CURRENT WEAPON RECOVERY > 0, DUAL WIELDING and 2 weapon style SPEED UP RECOVERY FOR PRIMARY ATTACK ABILITIES. (monk foa,rogue sap, fighter sundering blow, etc.. ). Same as above + 2 weapon fighting talent (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - 0.2) = 0.84444 Same as above + lightning strikes (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - 0.25 - 0.2) = 0.5805 . Recovery is STILL almost halving our DPS ; speed to unload FoA fortitude hit checks as it still lasts almost as long as the attack component 19/30 = 0.6333. Same as above + Suppress lightning strikes with potion of DAOM. (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - 0.5 - 0.2) = 0.31666 Easier fix for removing the recovery would be to drop the armor (and its hefty recovery penalty). Luckily monks get the iron wheel perk at level 11 (probably 13 since flaggelant path's ability go get around choke points cannot always be circumvented via extra movement speed. (something up to exceptional upgraded hide armor + durgan should do should fine for the late game. Perhaps even Angio's Gambeson to save up a bit on DAOM potion expenses ) ? Having low recovery from armor helps all other combat related abilities (casting, drinking potions, weapon switching, etc .. We could try stacking a bit more attack speed ... "speed" property on the main weapon doing the FoA strikes (Daenysis/march dagger) could help but would cost us accuracy . same as above daom potion + Sword of Daenysis (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - ((1.2 * 1.5) - 1) - 0.2) = 0. Spelltongue rapier is a notable mid-late game solution for the off hand, if you're not at 0 recovery yet and the speed buff will remain for the long pain as well. Will also prolong the duration of the likes of swift strikes or DOAM potion on occasion. 10 dex + plate, dualing very accurate rapier + spelltongue rapier in offhand. SwiftStrikes on. (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - ((1.25 * 1.15) - 1) - 0.2) = 0.3826 same as before but with durgan in accurate rapier (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + 0.5 - ((1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15) - 1) - 0.2) = 0.1550 same as 2 above but with durgan in plate (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + (0.5 - 0.15) - ((1.25 * 1.15) - 1) - 0.2) = 0.22430 (might like it better that way with limited durgan budget since it would apply to both weapons and also other actions) Is vulnerable attack ever worth it ?! IF you can eliminate recovery with it and IF you're damage is above the 20% DR cut off , then it is free damage. (19 / 30) * (1 / 0.6) * (0.5 + (0.5 - 0.15) - ((1.25 * 1.15) - 1) - 0.2 + 0.2) = 0.4354166. NOT good. Wear lighter armor or speed weapon/durgan weapon/gauntlets of swift action. IT IS QUITE MORE DIFFICULT (restricting) to eliminate weapon recovery with a weapon + shield config. Especially if you want to squeeze in vulnerable attack. Lets see if we could make that happen with plate . (1.2*1.5 *1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15-1) - (0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.2)= 0.03757. Almost there with speed weapon, DAOM, durganized shield, durganized weapon, gauntlets of swift action. Assuming here the durgan bonus from the shield is also multiplicative (haven't gotten arount to testing this yet). A stronger setup ,gains shield deflection/reflection benefits on top of everything else, but more expensive steel durgan wise. Perhaps worthwhile in a soloing context. Gloves of swift action and durgan steel are limited resources in full melee party context. ------- What do we do when the wounds run out ? (friendly fire for more wounds? ; stunning fists will also have stellar accuracy but short stun duration and you're likely to use the stun charges early in the fight before acquiring the wounds for the prone spam; hard hitting long pain summoned fists are a great option for damage output and will not take long to activate in a attack speed sensible build.) ------- Tentative build. Keep in mind its primary role is to keep EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE PRONED, PRONED ALL THE TIME. the build will have some similarities with this one https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83190-class-build-fulmineo-prondroni-fancy-duelist-monk-on-speed/ . Possible starting stats 18,16,8,18,14,4 . Maxing perception for best chances of crits on fortitude hit-checks, or at least guarantee graze against boss type units. High CON (no wounds no abilities). High INT (prolong the disable). High Might. Mostly wasted early on rapiers BUT will shine at high levels with scaling ranged fists (TLP). Dex can dip a bit at 0 weapon attack recovery. Low armor recovery should also help the other combat actions (weapon switch, potion gulping, scrolls, spells, abilities). Dumped RES. Will cost us but there was nothing else to dump. Swift Strikes. (TR is much better at low level but FoA will eat most out wounds soon enough.) WF noble Force of Anguish 2 Weapon Style Stunning Blows Lightning Strikes (kind of wasted on rapiers/better on fist/best on late TLP) TLP Veteran Recovery Clarity of Agony WF peasant // Fllagelant's Path Apprentice SA (mainly for TLP) Iron Wheel ?? Resonant Touch ?? bit more info into TLP. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87160-class-build-the-witch-doctor-mid-ranged-dps-monk-disabler/page-3?do=findComment&comment=1862417

retested wildstrike. works the same (46.6 * (0.3 + 0.1) * 1.2) + (46.6 * (0.15 + 0.1) * 1.2) = 36.348 Took a look at druid shapeshifting scaling cat dual weapons. 33% attack speed per rest flurry. so with daom potion or two weapon fighting + cat flurry 0 recovery. 5 DR pen. 16-25 0 ACC 8 DR. Lvl 1,2,3 16*1.15-25*1.15 +4 ACC 10 DR Lvl 4,5,6 16*1.15*1.15-25*1.15*1.15 +8 ACC 12 DR Lvl 7,8,9 16*1.15*1.15*1.15-25*1.15*1.15*1.15 +12 ACC 14 DR Lvl 10,11,12 16*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15-25*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15 +16 ACC 16 DR Lvl 13,14,15 16*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15-25*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.15 +20ACC 18 DR Lvl 16 32.181715 - 50.28392 Savage attack works with druid melee and so does apprentice SA. At 0 Recovery those things attack extremely fast (fist/dagger speed) and hit like nuclear trucks if you bother messing a bit with wildstrike and some more damage perks. Problem (less than before) is still accuracy (survival rest ACC vs enemy type extra help) and the limited duration of the transformation. Chanter's burn lash damage aura alone would add gazillions of damage . These things have the potential to output MASSIVE amounts of damage in a short time. Can hardly wait to get DPS comparator app going (its going to be a while but I'm getting closer) Stag does pierce damage type and has +7 Resist all. Attacks slower than the cat. (as per MAXQuest's table) . Carnage has decent area but again 1 per rest. Boar does pierce damage type and attack slower than the cat. ALWAYS on DAMAGE_BEFORE_DR *0.2 as RAW damage (wounding weapons). He should be very good vs dragons with proper accuracy boost. Wolf form does pierce and gets 2 takedowns per rest. What a joke .. Staelgar (Hiravias) is just a cat by another name.

It doesn't shine at low levels when the damage numbers are low. Most people try it and forget it. It starts to shine later when the damage numbers go up (like all lashes of course) ..