Volourn

"It's given an in-game reason why. It's entirely consistent with the story, and IMO was handled very well." Anything can be explained by a story; that doesn't mean it's the right way to handle it. Seems to me they put way tooo much influence on these characters. Joinable npcs - espicially if it's only 1, or 2 should not be a determining factor on whether one can progress into all 6 PrC. 1, or 2 maybe; but all 6? I think not. Same with the silly alignment or sorry light/dark side thing.. You cna't be a "neutral" Force user to get a PrC? What a yoke.

"The more I read about DA and what Bioware says about it, the more I believe they are not going to support multiplay like the community wants them too. We already know they don't believe enough in the PW aspect of gaming to work hard at supporting it. My bets are that DA will be a bang up single player game with a really good toolset." That explains why DA will have both a SP and MP OC - to better both versions. Not to mention a DM client (I believe it has one from what I know). I think people are gonna be suprised that DA will be as MP friendly as NWN was. Probably even more so after the experience they've gained from NWN. As for PWs; PW was never a part of BIO's plans for NWN let alone any other game yet they have added or voided using features that would cause harmful effects to them supposedly. As for modding DA, meh, it depends on how the non tileset area creation works, I think since the scripting is supposedly more or less like NWN's except presuambly improved... We shall see.. :ph34r:

"damn...in the 3 1/2 years I's known ye, dwarf, that's the most intelligent thing I's e'er seen ya post... ...damn, agreein' wit' ye hurts me head...thank the Gods Theyselves it dunna happen often... " Damn. Just to say, I lied in that quote. The last I want is being caught in agreement with a silly gibberish speaking wemic. Gah.

"While this makes planning my inventory easier, variety does equal better re-playability." True. Randomness to a certaind egree isn't bad; but when it's as silly as it seems to be KOTOR2 it goes to the other extreme of just nonsenical. ie. The example of a normal rodian having dark jedi robes.

"I wasn't refering to KotOR 1, Volourn. Take the post in the context that it is written in, refering to KotOR 2. Its not that hard to do, for any grade schooler can figure it out." You were referring to both games in the series. Nice try though.

"Like I would find Dark Jedi robes off a dead Rhodian thug lying in the street." Yet, some people claim that KOTOR2's random loot is an improvement over KOTOR. "They way that KotOR does random drops suck and its not going to change." Huh? First off, KOTOR1 didn't have random loot from what i seen, and enemies mostly dropped the weapon they used. Quite frankly, loot system is something where without even playing KOTOR2; it is obvious that KOTOR1 was way better at. Of course, some things like more skill useage in dialogue seems to be one improvement that KOTOR2 got right. Good stuff. "Secondly they only had a little over a year to develope this game while Bio had what two + years to work on KOTOR so I think this alone should grant them some degree slack as to the quality of game they did put out for all of us to enjoy." Exuses, exuses. BIO had to create the engine (almost), and game from scratch. Obsidian may have had less time; but a lot of the work was already done for them. On top of that, they pretty much knew how much time they had. People make a big deal about the x-box release date being "puseh up" for the Christmas holidays yet they forget that the release date for both version always varied between December 2004, and March 2005 so it wasn't that much of a surprise it was done then. Tsk, tsk.

"the themes themselves resonated with me." That's true. The themes, for the most aprt, were hit on really well. It's what connected with me more than just the writing itself. "Bingo. Like I said before, PS:T should be the standard of all CRPGs where it comes to story quality." Nonsense. if that were the case, PST's writing would be merely average hence it would not be very memorable. It's memorability comes from the fact that it is special. Just like FO's remembered because its in a class of its won when it comes to freedom in a CRPG. And, BG series is memorable because it pretty much is the epitome of epicness in CRPGs accomplish so many things at once. If these qualities were shared by all games on average; gaming would likely be boring because all games would be the same. *yawn* It's the average games in their avergaeness that makes the special games like PST, FO, and BG stand out. That is all.

"Sorry, but it's not the quantity of the text that makes PS:T great. It's the quality." Problem is a good protion of PST's words were simply not needed. It could of told the same story with the same meaningfulness without being so overbloated. Of course, overall, the writing was still good; but it was nowhere near as perfect as some people claim.

Arcanum. It has its problems; but overall it is simply one of the best RPGs out there. Not bad for a first try by Troika. Too bad they're next two games failed to live up to those expecations though BL was *this* close to doing so or even surpassing it.. Also, FF10 X-2. A lot of people oo pooed it as a 'girly game" and I tended to agree with all the talk about "girl power" and "sing me a career" stuff. It vast surpassed my low expecations and became a fun gaming experience.

"Sounds a wee bit hypocritical to me." Your point? I just don't want people to be like me as if you are like me you are an idiot. See, I am a hero. I am trying to save them poor souls. That is all.

"Well, don't you do that to?" Yes. Your point being what?

"btw, 'twas actually you that said it; e'en had it in me sig fer awhile as a memorial ta yer mindless inanity..." Ha. That's because you twinked what i wrote you boogerface squirming beast.

Volourn's jus' bein' Volourn; no sense tryin' ta put a label on it, cuz his unique blend o' idiocy an' inanity be breathtakin' ta behold... ...or not..." So says the one who claimed that Dungeion Seige was the best CRPG of all time! R00fles!!

"Unearthed Arcana is from Wotc and it is a very different book." Yes; but I was just making sure. "

" Do you realize that you justified BG's and NWN's stories the same way Ivan did PS:T's?" Justify? Neither of us were jsutifying anything. I merely pointed out that PST's story was about TNO's amnesia. The BG's stories were never about Irenicus or Sarevok. Bg's story was always about the PC discovering his/her roots, and how that effect him or her. The two dinks were just the PC's antagonsts in their respective games. In NWN's case, it was more about telling him about its main vilaliness motives; not justifying the story itself. "Zoq: Of course he knows. He is doing this just to get a rise out of Ivan." Um. Why would I do this? I like Ivan. He's cool even when he disagrees with me. Unlike you who is never cool. " "Zoq: Oh, so he was just trolling." Do you always believe what Hades post? I sure hope not.

"No, its not a new 3rd edition." Eh. That's not exactly what i meant. Wasn't there some sort of 'Unearthed Arcana' years ago for one of the earlier editions. Beena while so maybe I remember wrong... <_<

"Stripped to their basics, the plotlines of any story" Um.. PST's plot is not just stripped down; it's plot is about amnesia. Without it; you pretty much got no story. "Sarevok wants to slaughter lots and lots of people so he can become a God." That's not BG's real story. It's story is discovering your character's roots and trying to find out why someone wants you dead. BG's story is not about Sarevok; it's about you. However, your version is used by those who want to make Bg's story look weak when it isn't. "Irenicus wants to slaughter everybody in his old homeland for preventing him from becoming a God, and also to give becoming a God another try." No. That's not BG2's story. BG2's story is the continued journey of the PC in discovering his palce and the world and Irenicus - while awesomely well done - is the means to the end in that regard. Why do you think the dreams equences in BG2 evolved around you and Irenicus talking about your palce in the world. BG2 story was never about Irencius. He was a major aprt of your story; but the story was not his. People who say it tend to be the ones who like BG2; are trying to twist BG2's story in't soemthing as basic as 'go kill big baddy'. Not cool. "Mellissan wants to kill all the Bhaalspawn so she can become a God (notice a trend?) " Melissan was lame. I enjoyed TOB in spite of its main story. I agree though its story was about stopping Meslissan hence its being the weakest of the BGs in terms of main story. "I wish I could tell you what the villains in NWN wanted, but I got bored around Chapter 3 and quit playing. Something about ancient lizard people conquering the world. I wouldn't be surprised if some villain or another was planning to use the slaughter of everyone in Neverwinter to become a God. Or something. " Only if you listened to fools. NWN's story is about a former power wanting what they feel is theirs back. It's not really about conquering others; but about getting abck what was lost and conquering in the villains' mind was the best way to a ccomplish this. Still, the OC's story was weakened since the focus - like TOB (though TOB still did a decent job) - wasn't on the PC as much as it should be. "You can point to the amnesiac thing all you like, but beyond the set-up" Um. Your character's amnesia in PST is more than just a set up of the story; it *is* the story. "The Fallouts are the only ones which comes close to breaking the barrier....but even there, with objectives you can kinda sorta see how someone might believe in, the objective is pointlessly genocidal and obviously 'bad.' " Nah. Both Fos were about dealing with the Big bad or in FO1 also possibly joining them. however, no one really claims that FO's story is its best part or is really special. Though; it's still well done mostly.

"How many adventuring companies a) travel under cover of total darkness or b) camp with no fire whatsoever?" a) Not many unless they are in the desert. b) About half in my experience. Most PCs I see in action are paranoid that someone will see the fire so they tend to forgo campfire unless it's really cold or they desperately need to see but then they have other light sources for that which don't have the habit of giving their location away so eaisly. That said, this still doesn't chnage the fatc that during nighttime or in inner areas; that magic missle's long rnage doens't come into play as often. Even if there's a light source to see by; it's areaof effect is much smaller than the actual spells which pretty much shortens magic missles ranges. Also, inside you have corners and the like to deal with since you can't get the magic missle to turn corners. It's "heat seeking ways" only goes so far. "In my experience, it's a very common event." Okay then. "Quote something I stated that implied this." No need. It's obviously you are defending the idea that magic missle is some type of super spell that is seemingly unmatched and can't be defended against even though it most clearly can with something as simple as another 1st level spell. "You also do this a lot. Why do you converse with people? Do you do it to learn, do you do it to "win", or do you do it for some other purpose? I'm trying to figure out what your goals are from how you carry on these conversations. In my limited observation, it seems to follow a similar pattern: * Statement of opinion, often with the disclaimer of "Period." * Period of somewhat even debate * You erect strawmen, building up and tearing down arguments that other people didn't make. * You get called on this behavior and tell the person they are free to not converse with you. Do you think you'd ever like to see a discussion through to its conclusion? Do you actually think it's beneficial to a discussion to construct arguments from another person's statements that the individual did not, and would not, state on their own? How is that helpful to you or the other person? What is your goal?" Interesting psychobabble that adds nothing to the discussion other to say how evil I am. I'm here to discuss magic systems and I guess the power of magic missle. It's not really complicated to figure that out, I would think. No hidden agenda; no big conspiracy. I'm not that deep or smart. "I also never suggested that people should spam the equivalent of a third level fireball. What are you doing?" I already posted that I misread that part, and covered it. "Are you just getting desperate?" I only get desperate for girls; not over a discussion on the net. Hate to disspaoint you there. "I believe a magic user should frequently use magic." We simply differ on this. I think magic shouldn't be used more frequently - I think the spells slots a D&D wizard already recieves is more than enough. Anymore, he might as well be a fighter whose chosen weapon is magic. *yawn* "I'd like to ask you this, Volourn: do you believe that a 1st level wizard should be able to climb walls better than a 1st level rogue dedicated to the task? Because really, that's what a spell like spider climb allows a wizard to do. The same could be said for a lot of spells. Personally, I don't like that." I persoanlly do like that in essence. Magic is about doing thinsg the character normally can't do. Why can't magic be used to 'climb like a spider'? That makes magic special to me. I guess you don't like spells that create say a sword for the wizard to use as that would be taking the fighter's row; or better yet a spell like Tenser's Transformation must really eat you up since it basically turns a mage into a fighter albeit temporarily and with less feats. The thing is both a rogue and fighter have abilities that a wizard can't duplicate so eaisly - sneak attack and number of feats for emaple - good for them. To me, magic should be wonderous and do wonderous things and not stop short just because it might step on another class' toes and hurt their feelings. I also don't beleive in 3rd Editions idea that all classes are treated equal and in balanced. first off, they aran't and they shouldn't be. A rogue should *never* be the flat out equal to a mage. Period. In some areas the rogue can have advantages; but by default it a rogue and mage should not be equal. Why? Magic is defined by its not being normal and easy to pick it or at least it shouldn't be. Anyways... "That is one of the things I liked about Monte' Cook's magic system in Arcana Unearthed. Each spell, besides spell level, is set up in three broad catagories. Simple, Complex, and Exotic. Simple spells tend to be not as powerful as Complex or Exotics, and exotics tend to be fairly powerful for their level and require a feat to learn to cast them (like Exotic Weapon feats). With in each spell you have the base power, which you cast at the spell level. Diminished power, allowing you to caste the spell at one level less, taking a lower level slot, or at heighten power which takes up a higher level slot." That's a new 3rd Edtion version right? If so, I'll have to check it out... <_<

"dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels" Hmm.. Maybe. So, he means make fireball the equivalant of a 1st level spell in terms of power. Hmm.. That seems to be as bad. Let's make a fireball spells that does what then to make it the equal of magic missle? Hmm.. Hmm.. Hmm...

"Um, BG series didn't have great freedom...Only game with anything close to "freedom" was FO series. " In the PC RPG genre; it sure does have 'great' freedom. Obviously, FO has even more. "The 'Amnesiac' plot? " Um. Nice try; but PST's plot is the 'Amnsiac plot'. Afterall, that's the entire set up for the PC to care about about the game since you wake in the morgue with AMNESIA and your goal is to remember and.or find out what happened to your memory. Tsk, tsk.

"But a storyline which transcends the endlessly boring 'there's a big bad guy trying to destroy a country/world/galaxy! Go kill him!' does. Especially one as well-designed as Torment." Yeah. Because, the amnesiac plot is sooooooooooooooo much more special and unique. R00fles! "PS:T delivered the complete package;" It's too bad you don't know what 'complete package' means. PST has a great story and great characters; but that does not make the package complete. Afterall, a complete package RPG would be one with great story, characters, combat, freedom, great character creation and ehancement, etc., etc. Only the Bgs, and FOS offer this. They win. Game over. They are the TRUE complete packages.

"Volo, when will you learn how to use the quote function? Its very practical, you know.." One does not need to learn something they already know how to do. I simply find it quicker, and easier to do this. Plus, the whining and flames (not by you; but by others) just makes it more enjoyable. "Alarm has a much smaller AoE than magic missile -- and a lot of spells, really -- has range." Of course, at night, magic missle's effectiveness is lessened due to the fact you can only target what you can see and darkness tends to put a damper on that - even dwarves have darkvision of 60' only; not exactly as long range as a normal magic missle. "I'd say towns are the worst places, because it's so easy to get ambushed in them, especially if magic is being employed by the attackers." Sure; but like I said, such lethal combat isn't that much of a common occurance in towns. "In my experience, one-third to one-half of all D&D battles involve one side being unprepared. " Really? I'd say no more than 1/3; but meh. "Now, are the things you're talking about things that you've actually seen used a lot? Or are you just theorizing that they could be used often to block magic missile?" Often enough to be considered as solid ways to deal with the spell. The problem is that you make it seem like magic missle is some type of super spell that has a habit of completely turning the tide of battle. I have almost never seen that occur. It's a useful spell. Nothing more or less. The only reasons why it's so popular is because it's 'auto hit', and does decent damage the higher you are. Certainly not because it'll break the backs of your enemies. "if you stopped putting words in peoples' mouths. You do this constantly." Maybe I am; maybe I'm not. However, youdid say you prefer to have a magic missle type spell that can basically do the sama damage a dagger does only and repeatedly more or less. When the words fit no need to deny it is my motto. Not to mention, I'm not the only one with this habit. "Conversations with you would be a lot less inane" If it's so horrible to converse with me you cna always stop doing so. I'll survive. I'm sure you will to. No worries for me. "That's a really great rant against something I never suggested. I suggested taking the exact same list of spells in the PHB and dropping them in power by the equivalent of one or two levels and allowing wizards to cast more of them, and more often. Given the same overall body of tools, how does this suddenly make magic less wondrous?" Yeah, make spells lower in level. I see. Because we all know that magic missle is the equal of fireball. Neato. And, while we're at it, let's allow people to spam fireball as often as they do magic awesome. Yup, that's so cool. "Ars Magica allows magi to cast spells a lot. To me, its magic sure as hell feels a lot more wondrous than D&D's. Not because it's powerful, not because it's rare, but because the casters get to use their powers a lot and in many different ways. In my opinion, freedom and mutability make magic feel wondrous. As a player, I feel like I have many choices that I can switch up on a moment to moment basis. Unless you're very high level, even D&D sorcerers don't have that ability." Agreed. Being able to cast spells numerous times repeatedly makes magic more special indeed. Espicially since D&D doens't exactly have some super low limit of how much you can cast. It just doens't allow you to spam magic repeatedly. Ah well. To each own. Have fun.

"At any rate, PS:T is the greatest achievement in a CRPG to date." No.

"My biggest problem with D&D magic is the illogical way casters "forget" spells all of a sudden." Huh? It's very logical why it happens. There's a reason why they have to study their spellbook everyday. "love threads like these where Volourn gets shred to tears and stomped into the ground.. but doesn't realize it!" Ahh. I love when trolls enter threads, and don't even add anything to it except to flame their betters. R00fles! "One could argue that the fact that I got you to waste a spell slot on shield is a good thing. As a player and a DM, I've won more than a few battles by provoking a round of buffs, retreating, waiting, and returning to really start the battle." Yeah, that's most likely because your oppostion (*ie. either the players or DM) were stupid enough to let you get away with such strategy. You mean your enemies didn't chase you down? That just seems silly. "No, not really. You can a) Not be seen b) Wear a brooch of shielding c) Cast shield d) Employ a very small handful of other tactics that replicate these effects." *sigh* Just off the top of my head you can also do the following which your d does cover but way more than just a handful a) minor globe of invulnerbility b) spell resistance through natural ability (very rare for PCs unless the camapiagn allows for drow), spells, or items (also should be extremely rare) c) interrupt the caster Not exactly a few ways do counter the spell... "It's much easier to use shield in a PC RPG because you can usually anticipate battle and you can really anticipate it on a reload. DMs are also much more capable of adapting to D&D tactics than a computer." For, the most aprt, a PC party should be be able to expect and prepare for a battle in pnp. Why? The area should give a hint. If you are in the middle of a dungeon you should always be ready to start casting and swiing, if youa re enter your main quarry's lair/home; be prepared, if youa re in town; you *usually* are safe so you don't have to worry about it as much. If youa re travelling long distances, most things won't be able to sneak up on you simly since it's much easier to see far in the distance giving you time to prepare. Only at night are you in any type of jeopary of being surprised but that should be even limited if prepared with guards, dfensive spells like alarm, a nice fire though not always wise to have one) or light source, etc. Only with teleporting /invisible wizard or sneaky thieves should you even worry then. An unprepared group will have more things to worry about than a simple magic missle. I'm not saying magic missle is useless. It's very useful. But, it's not the be all end all of spells. "The theory is pretty simple. Reduce the power of all available spells by about one or two equivalent "levels". Allow the wizard access to more of them. Give them all mana costs, with enough of a pool to cast four or five in an hour at first level. If a D&D wizard started with a set of four or five equivalent 0-level spells and could do that, I think that would be great. The wizard would be unable to cast spider climb and immediately climb better than the party rogue. The wizard would be unable to cast magic missile and unerringly hit a guy at 100 ft. for more base damage than a dagger. And instead of balancing that by saying, "Well, he can only do X of those at a time N times a day," you balance it by saying that they can't do any task as well, with magic, as the mundane specialist is capable of doing it. If the wizard wanted the equivalent of a D&D magic missile, allow them to use a basic attack with mana power-ups, like the L5R "raises". It would (or could) blow their pool for a long time, and that's their cost. In my opinion, anything that helps a wizard use magic more often and in more ways without allowing them to overshadow the core capabilities of other classes is a good thing." I see. You see magic as just a simple replacement of weapons and other "real" thigs. I see it different. It should be special, i think. It should go beyond the usual into the abnormal; but also not be so freeform that a wizard can cast with impunity which is whre spell slots have their strengths as well as spell components and xp penalty for some spells as well. I don't want a wizard to be basically be someone who weilds a magic missle like some common dagger. That is just plain boring to me, and ruins the whole point of magic being wonderous. I should I, I could live with a 'man system' that allows a spellcaster to cast a spell of their choosing each day 9depending on their level) as long as the mana point pool makes sense, doens't simply regenerate over minutes/hours and the wizard cna only regain them through rest. It wouldn't be my favorite system; but I could accept it as an alternative. Sadly, the majority of mana systems simply don't do that.

"First off, you need to have a clear and definitive alignment, i.e. purish light/purish dark. No fence sitting neutrality stuff here. Secondly, you have to be at least level 15 and have Visas recruited into your party. If you have all these things, then speak with Kreia." "Hades Mode": That's just lame. What a lame way to do prestige classes. "Hades Mode" Seriosuly, that is not good. Not good at all.