Volourn

"Arcanum 234K units and generate sales of $8.8 million The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units $5.2 million Bloodlines sold a paltry 72K units $3.4 million." LOL People claim the fact that Jade Empire sold a 'measily' 600k+ copies in 6 months (I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to 1 million now, and it's even gettinga new release on PC and likely a sequel if MS is to be believed) was undisputable proof that it was an unmigated failure of absolute epic proportions... then, you come along to claim that these three games including BL's 72k and TOEE's 128k using the D&D license were success stories sales wise? LMAO That's right. Troika's three SUCCESSES sell less than COMBINED than BIO's one "FAILURE" LMAOATWTKKUYADYTATWA If anything, this shows that Troika's repuation took a nosedive game after game. This, to me, shows, that people gave Troika a chance with Arcanum, and less and less people decided to with the subsequent agmes. That is, if your numbers are evena ccurate. R00fles!

"I really was thinking more about the talent involved, the dedication and concentration required to make a successful product, the business side is very much like any other in alot of respects. The hard part of the games industry is keeping up with an ever evolving always progressing, and always changing hardware/software enviroment. There is alot to learn and just as you think you crack one thing a new thing exists..." This pretty much describes any actual career - as opposed to a job. Even many jobs fit this bill. This isn't anything unique to game development. "Arcanum, ToEE & Bloodlines were all excellent Games that sold quite well." Bull. You ahve no facts to back this up. If this wa strue, publ;ishers wouldn't have run away from them. Afterall, if Night is to be believed, publishers are all about sales and profit.. then, you come along and proclaim thjat Troika games did sell well. Yet, after BL (their third game), no publisher wanted to touch them with a 10' pole. "Bioware were in a good position, had atari turned them away they would have been in a whole other position... But that was very unlikely due to the success bioware had, had... They're indeed one of the success stories of the games industry." Bioware earned that position through hard work dedication, and smart business and game making sense. It's not like they appeared out of thin air and became the company theya r eover the night. Heck, BIO was created by THREE DOCTORS who had no previous experience in game devlopment yet they managed to do something that veterans of the undustry could not do. *shrug* "Bioware acted in a sensible manner they had a certain percentage of a product," Nope. Interplay had sole rights to the NWN/D&D license which later got passed to Atari. BIO *never* had the rights to it. They had no more right to it then 99% of developers do. But, they atcually had the ballz to voice the fact they were being screwed by Interplay (though Interplay saw it differently, of course). And, guess what? BIO is still going strong while Interplay continues to doggy paddle just trying to stay alive. Back to Troika: Troika's games fialed because they had fundamentla flaws in the DESIGN that for various reasons turned off many gamers. Not because those gamers are stupid. It was a failing on Troika's part; not the potential customers. Nor wa sit the publishers' fault. The idea that the 3 publishers purposely sabatoged Troika's gam,es is silly espicially since all three companies - even Atari despite the fact itself is not in the best position currently - have all published successful games in every way. *shrug* Bottom line is that Troika was not an elite game, developer let alone a good one. I say that even as I PERSONALLY enjoyed 2 out of 3 of their games. Go figure.

As do we all.

"I don't know of many jobs that are harder..." Medical proffesion for starters. one mistake can lead to causing death or serious sickness, massive alwsuits, loss of jobs, or even jailtime. One mistake. It also takes upwards of a decade to become a doctor in the first place. Firefighetrs, police officers, lawyers, soliders, and a host of others are much more difficult. btw, I'm not saying game devlopment is easy. It isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be so many horror stories about failures. But, that doens't mean it's super difficult either. "LMFAO! Somebody lives in fantasy land, developers are at the bottom of the food chain man, they don't always have much room for moving, especially not at first. If you knew anything about development, you'd realise that even with all the planning in the world, it's going to change dramatically upon execution, it's different everyday." LMFAO Where did I say otherwise? Again, do you really expect me to shed a tear because the poor lttle developer is so weak? I surely hope not. "Perhaps so, but then again PC's are rather complex setups, each usually different." And? "It usually comes down to the developer either signing to do the work, or shutting it's doors... That's not weak willed, that's staying in business." It is weak willed. BIO thought thy were being screwed by Interplay. They left. Guess what? They're still in business while Interplay is hanging on for dear life and haven't made a game in what? 3 years? R00fles! Again, have some ballz. You need ballz to succeed in the business world - game development or otherwise. If you act like a doormat; you''ll be treated like a doormat.

"I've played pleanty of products which I have been able to finish in an unpatched state without any issue." And? With those same products are unfinishable by others. *shrug* As for your lame 'woe is the developer'... here's me.. here's me NOT shedding a tear.. Develoeprs should grow some ballz, and guess what? Don't be so weak willed and sign a contratc just because. ] This idea that publ;ishers don't care at all about making good games is just bullocks. It's common sense that good games usually means good money. Stop making exuses for devloeprs screwing up. There are good devlopers, and there are bad devlopers. One of the bad ones was Troika which is why they lasted only 3 games despite their previous connection to popular games. Troika screwed Troika. Period. It seems to me that some devlopers don't know much about the business they are in either as evidenced by their constant fialure to actually sign intelligent contracts and make intelligent game devlopment plans that cna be followed. You make it sound like game development is the most difficult job ever which is beyond bullocks.

"A finished product is one where a users can get from A to B without hinderance by bugs, or common occurance of CTD's. Atleast in my humble opinion." By this wide open defintion of 'unfinished' then I have NEVER played a finished product for the PC. Not one. To me, the difference we are speaking of is polished vs. unpolished and isn't in absolutes. Games like TOEE, and KOTOR2 could be argued to be both unpolished with TOEE being more unpolished than KOTOR2. But, they wer eboth finished. To me, a finished product is a product where the seller (publisher and to a lesser degree the developer) decides that it is in good enough shape to put on the marketplace. Theyd ecide when it is 'finished' when they decide to place the 'for sale' sign on it, and alloows potential customers to buy it.

TSL's ending is finished. It just wasn't done well. There's a HUGE difference. Besdies, out of all my complaints of KOTOR2, the ending is the very least of them. In fact, it didn't bother me all that much. TOEE was finished. It had a beginning, middle, and end. It may have had lots of bugs. That still doesn't change the fact that it was finished. People too easily call games unfinished, imo. Very few (if any) games are actually released when unfinished. Ask any developer. To them, their work is never 'finished', and they would always be adding new stuff if allowed to.

"Instead of interactive fiction where you fight and then watch a movie (like many RPG's today) they made games you could actually role play." Eh? Old skool CRPGs didn't know what role-playing was (Ultima excluded). They wer enothing more than glorifed dungeon hacks and were proud of it. If you want to put Troika in with that group; be my guest. Lare: Roll your eyes all you want; the truth is the truth.

"Both were unfinished and released in that state regardless." SL (and, even TOEE) were both finished. The idea that they weren't is silly.

I hate the NHL. Hmph!!!

"That's a false claim. Ask any professor in marketing and they greatly disagree with you. There are several books about the subject of creating new markets, consumer awereness, and consumer needs where there aren't any." Read what I wrote again. I never said that marketing was useless or doesn't help. It does. Heck, as for creating new markets. Big deal. Before the creation of the phone; nobody felt the 'need' for one. Now, of course, having a phone is pretty much neccessary in a modern nation. Same with motorized vehicles or even televisions for that matter (though not in the same way). Marketing is important; but marketing alone will not accomplish this task which is EXACTLY what I said. I took marketing in school. I know how useful - if done right - can be. Afterall, there's a reason why stores list prices usually at 5.98 or 5.99 instead of 6.00 or 6.01. R00fles! Night:

"So basically your discounting the effect of marketing on sales as being an utterly pointless endevour?" No. It's obvious your reading comprehsnion sucks even as you blast Grom for his. Marketing helps. But, marketing alone does not make sells. Many young female artists are pretty like Britney. The vast majority of them bomb yet most anti Britney people like to make tghe excuse that the reason she is so popular is because of her looks. This theory discounts all the FLOPS of those young ladies who get hyped. Marketing allows people to learn about various products that they may otherwise never hear of. It does NOT, by itself, make ANY sales. They can make the best panty commercial of all time; but I will never buy panties for myself. Period. People choose to buy what they want. Marketing does not make them doing so. This idea that marketing will make someone buy soemthing they don't want or need is 99% of the time a myth (there are always exceptions). Keep up the good work. Again, since you seem to forget this, mass appeal does NOT = crappy! It's true, it's true!

"Never stated that, that I can recall." You bringing up Britney Spears to illustrate that 'mass appeal = crap' illustrates taht you *do* think that. I personally feel that Britney Spears has a pretty damn good singing voice and some of her songs are pretty darn good. It has NOTHING to do with her appeal. People like her music because they do. That doesn't mean her music is crap or the people who prefer her over BurBUM are stupid or brainwashed. And, no, the 'masses' will not buy something simply because it is 'sold' to them. Afterall, the movie industry proves this (as well as the game industry). Mnay well hyped movies (and games) fall flat on their face. People will buy things they think they'll enjoy. Period.

Of course, bug hunting is hard, and time consuming. That's why you hire QA. Duh. One does not NEED coding experience to realize. I never claimed game devlopment was easy. Of course, it's hard, time consuming, and soemtimes likely not as rewrading as one may have hope. As for your opinions on their games, good for you. They're just opinions. Just like mine. Sadly, for Troika, most people tend to agree with me if not outright hate their games., btw, As abvove, I actually like 2 out of 3 Troika games. But, you'd have to be absolutely blind to honestly believe that Troika is the top level of game development. This idea that youa re bring forth that it's the publisher's and consukmers who are the stupid ones who 'don't get it' is beyond silly and has no basis in fact. At all. Ever.

LOL But victim? How 'bout 'you are the target of well done marketing' or something even better that someone not named Volourn cna think of. It irks me (well... not relaly.. not much irks me.. but this comes close) when people refer to marketing targets as 'victims' or 'brainwashed' or other such silliness. A product was advertised. He was interested in it. He bought it. That's not brainwashing. It's called good business sense to get your product/service out there.

"You make money buy providing a product that is popular and cheap to make and maintain." I doubt NWN was cheap to make. Anyways, all this 'publisher is evilz' talk is silly. Each and every company is solely responsible for their own success. Atari is in financial troubgle currnetly because of THEIR mistakes... or, should they blame Troika for it if they go udner? or should they blame BIo for refusing to make any more D&D games? No, of course not. Atari is in the position theya re in because of decisions THEY made. Period. The same goes for the now non existent Troika. Troika screwed Troika. "I just think Trokia were talented individuals who gave there dream a shot, but they weren't talented in the biz stuff, where the code, art, and design they clearly were." That must explain: 1. Arcanum's bizarre characetr systemn. I like it, overall; buyt tehre's certainly quite a bit of bizarre characetr system decisions at hand there. Heck, Troika fanboys aka Codex blast it. It's graphics were, at best, okay even at release though the style was good. 2. TOEE, outside of combat rules, had HORRIBLE deisgn. Ultra poor story, easy/boring combat, completely forgettable characters,e tc., etc. 3. BL having one of the worst combat systems I HAVE EVER SEEN. As for coding, they're awesomke coding must explain their games ultra bug problems. R00fles! P.S. It's easy to have 'talent'. It's much harder to use it effectively.

I don't think his heart is into it. He's even admitted to it. Heck, that's why he's retiring ACCORDING TO TIKI HIMSELF. He doesn't feel that the grind of 'football' is worth it naymore and he's finding it harder to motivate himself for games. That surely sounds to me that someone is simply counting the days until he can officially retire. It's not all about numbers. His numbers are still there for the most part... but, big deal. Besides, speaking of numbers, he has more fumbles than last year. *shrug* I like Tiki; but as a fan; I don't wnat someone on my team when they admit that they don't really want to be there anymore. I say reture , and let us remember him when he WAS truly a part of the team instead of someone treating football like a 9 to 5 job.

NumbersU is wrong. RP is correct. Not surprising at all.

Except, you forget the fact that Troika failed because of its' games' lack of quality and it was that lack of quality that led to a lack of sales which led to Troika failing. Both TOEE, and BL (espicially this one) were really hyped. Even Arcanum got some pretty danr hype 'cause how often did the following occur: "Here comes Arcanum from the 'creators' of Fallout!". R00fles!!!!

I find it hilarious that people often equate quality to number of copies. People that say soemthing like "your game sucks and only has mass appeal because of the stupidty of people and that's why it sold 2 million copies" is just as dumb as 'my favorite is better than yours cna it sold more". Guess what? The MMORPG I mad ein my basement is the BEST EVAR 'cause only I have played it!' HAHAHAH! Now, that's ELITE!!

I like Barber too. But, quite frankly, despite his protests, it's obvious he's only going through the motions this seasons ever since his announcement. He's counting down to his retirement day. That's cool and all; but I believe it hurts the Giants on the field. I'm not one to believe in off field distractions really effecting on field accomplishments; but Barber's little fun on the side most certainly doens't help.

That was like 7+ years ago. PC games werne't quite the secondary citizens they seemingly are today. And, many companies become successful with non license products. In fact, the most successful games usually aren't licensed. GTA, Sims, and Diablo ALL crush any of BIO's licesned products in terms of success (at least in terms of financially and number of sales). "And were Troika given the chance to develop more patches?" They didn't give the publishers any reason to do so. It be like giving money to someone who would just waste it. That's what Troika basically did. You don't give mor emoney to someone whose wasted it. "But not when it's published. Publishers generally agree with developers on a release date but if a game requires more testing or polish, publishers are still free to release it when they see fit." Troika sigtned the contract. Their choice. Theyw eren't force dinto it. Period. Poor project managment is what killed Troika. It's their own fault. That's nolt saying the publishers never screwed up - they did - but Troika's decisiuons are what killed Troika; not the publishers'.

"But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game." Disagree. Developers decide which publishers they work with, what conbtracts they sign, and how much they sign for. They are 100% responsible for their decisions. 3 different publishers, the same result. It's funny that they had the same publisher that BIO and Obsidian did yet we all know that NWN is still being patched TO THIS DAY, and NWN2 is also getting patched at a reasonable rate. The difference? The developer. Publishers are responsible for their own actions, and to their own company. They're not there (well.. shouldn't be, anyways) to babysit developers.

2 out of 3 were licensed projects. Troika is 100% responsible for their failure as they are 1009% responsible for the decisions they make.