Volourn

I find it hilarious that people often equate quality to number of copies. People that say soemthing like "your game sucks and only has mass appeal because of the stupidty of people and that's why it sold 2 million copies" is just as dumb as 'my favorite is better than yours cna it sold more". Guess what? The MMORPG I mad ein my basement is the BEST EVAR 'cause only I have played it!' HAHAHAH! Now, that's ELITE!!

I like Barber too. But, quite frankly, despite his protests, it's obvious he's only going through the motions this seasons ever since his announcement. He's counting down to his retirement day. That's cool and all; but I believe it hurts the Giants on the field. I'm not one to believe in off field distractions really effecting on field accomplishments; but Barber's little fun on the side most certainly doens't help.

That was like 7+ years ago. PC games werne't quite the secondary citizens they seemingly are today. And, many companies become successful with non license products. In fact, the most successful games usually aren't licensed. GTA, Sims, and Diablo ALL crush any of BIO's licesned products in terms of success (at least in terms of financially and number of sales). "And were Troika given the chance to develop more patches?" They didn't give the publishers any reason to do so. It be like giving money to someone who would just waste it. That's what Troika basically did. You don't give mor emoney to someone whose wasted it. "But not when it's published. Publishers generally agree with developers on a release date but if a game requires more testing or polish, publishers are still free to release it when they see fit." Troika sigtned the contract. Their choice. Theyw eren't force dinto it. Period. Poor project managment is what killed Troika. It's their own fault. That's nolt saying the publishers never screwed up - they did - but Troika's decisiuons are what killed Troika; not the publishers'.

"But you're forgetting that publishers have the final say about a game." Disagree. Developers decide which publishers they work with, what conbtracts they sign, and how much they sign for. They are 100% responsible for their decisions. 3 different publishers, the same result. It's funny that they had the same publisher that BIO and Obsidian did yet we all know that NWN is still being patched TO THIS DAY, and NWN2 is also getting patched at a reasonable rate. The difference? The developer. Publishers are responsible for their own actions, and to their own company. They're not there (well.. shouldn't be, anyways) to babysit developers.

2 out of 3 were licensed projects. Troika is 100% responsible for their failure as they are 1009% responsible for the decisions they make.

Article and Troika foudners: 'WAAAA! Publishers are evil, evil, evil! It's their fault we screwed up! WAAAAAA!!!!" What's funny is that, overall, I like Troika. I enjoyed 2 out of their 3 games, afterall, to various degrees. Even TOEE though I hate it had some strong points to it. Still, Troika's failure is 100% theirs. Period. P.S. EA is awesome.

Those aren't bandits. Those are rebels. To find the bandits in question, head from Cape Dun towards the first town, and ona cliff above the beacj you should see the bandits in question.

"You are the victim of well-targeted marketing." Victim? Over dramatic mayhaps?

"Time to switch teams Vol!" Only cowards switch teams. "Does Vol not check this thread anymore?" " I haven't checked any thread for like 4 days. R00fles! P.S. A big part of me hopes the Giants dont make it in so we can get rid of one of the worst and the most oevrrated coach ever and get rid of Barber the TV Announcers. Announcers shouldn't play football.

"Did Julian Le Fay and/or Todd Howard stuff you in a locker when you were a kid?" Yes, yes they did. That MUST be the ONLY reason why I hate the ES series and why it is EASILY the worst 'successful' CRPG series ever! R00fles!

Daggerfall, being an ES game, is really crappy. Really no difference between any of those games. 'Nough said.

"not sure how this fits into the current discussion but, back in my PNP days, a "party member" is someone who got a cut of the treasure at the end of the adventure. a "hireling" received a wage, regardless of the actual treasure." Yup. That pretty much how it works.

Heh. Go back and read from Jag's initial question. I answered and some bozoo went wacko on my butt and the topic spiraled from there. It was, and si fun! Anyways, on Gothic 3: I am level 20, and am about to destroy the Montera orcs which means I'm just ahead of where I was when I had to restart the game because of the demo screw up. I'm not sure if I want to beat up those orcs yet. I mean go on to Gotha and deal with the evils there before dealing with Montera. Then, I'll go take out (or try to) those dragons near Cape Dun...

"Maybe because it looked stupid when a henchman got killed by a squirrel. Balance was always a weird thing in the Gothic games..." There ar eno squirrels in G3 so does not compute. Actually, Copper (the only permenant party member I have seen yet) does ok. he doens't kill much; but he cna last a while since all he almost does is block incoming attacks. Heh. That's what i use him for. Let him keep the npcs busy while I fight one on one. This works when fighting masses of enemies. Hheh. Though; one wolf can kill him if it starts to knock him down... though, he can usually last long enough for me to get there.. "but the question was whether they function as NWN2 NPCs" No. No it wasn't. The question was if G3 had joinable npcs. Once again, the answer is YES.

I agree.. soemwhat. If you do things you should do things right. I mean.. they give the ability to give some basic instructions to your npcs including go away/come with/stay/give potion. It be nice if they allowed you to equip them. btw, If you don't think that the npcs in G3 matter then why has PB boosted their surivieability in the enwest patch. If they were not considered 'importnat'.. why? Obviously, fans whined to them about the npcs or else there'd be no fixes.. Hmm... And, yes, G3 henchmen do matter. Coosing to have one or not does chnage how you play the game - espicially combat and travel (usally for the negative for travel, lol). Plus,. I love how Copper was brought into the party. And, yes, it's a party with 2. So meh. Cool beans.

"And I don't recall having much control over my henchmen in NWN either." It depends on what you mean as 'much'. NWN1 OC gives more control over the jonables than, say, G3; but not as much, as say, a game like NWN2. So.. would you qualify them as henchlins or hiremen? Hmmm... I think the problem is that because BIo decided to (wrongly) used henchmen to define the NWN1 npcs; people who dislike the OC have mistakenly taken that to mean 'crappy joinable npc that PC can't control like a robot'. I blame BIO for starting it. I blame Obsidian for following their trend. I blame the fans for being dumb enough to be brainwashed by them. Even the 'control' part of your defintions doesn't help; because with words like 'much' or 'significant' are simply too opinion oreinted to really quantify. How much control does one need before being considered a 'party member' instead of a'henchmen' in your system? That's the problem. At least, using D&D system which is the terminlogy that started all this (and is based on actual (defintions); at least the terms are concise and it's not a matter of opinion. That's why I prefer it; because it's not opinion based. It's just there. An npc is either a henchmen or expert hireling as well anyone that parties with you is a party member. ie. G3 has both henchmen as well as those npcs who are temporary party members. Not really henchmen though as they aren't there long term ie. The rebel slave that first leads you to Okara is one of these. "We won't miss them." Don't speak for me. Even with G3's very limited henchmen; I still like the game more because they have them then if it didn't. It's all about options - soemthing that NWN2 forgot...

"Why is D&D terminology used to describe a non-D&D game?" That's obvious. Because the people who tend toa rgue you with me are mistakenly using D&D terminology to describe other games. On top of this, the D&D terminology itself is based off definitions of the terms. I believe during another one of these 'arguments' someone else had actually shared the 'real world non D&D' defintions of these terms. In essence, your definition relies on little fact and is more opinion base dwhich means your definition is useless. Afterall, what one defines as 'significant' can surely differe from another's. "Henchmen are mindless followers that you have no control over andthat you don't really interact with in any significant way." Outside of direct control; your description doens't fit either FO or NWN1 npcs. You ahve quite a bit of control on how NWN1 OC npcs act. And, you do interatc with them. Significantly is plainly opinion based and means nothing. If I were to use that I would say that while most PST npcs are (using your defintion) are 'party members'; that stupid fire mage is not since I didn't feel any significant interatcion with him. NWN1 OC npcs have quests, you have some control over what they do, and you do interact with thm. Same with FO. G3 has henchmen who are party members. As does NWN2. NWN2 henchmen are (to me) superior; but they both qualify as henchmenwho ar eparty members. NWN1 OC has Expert Hirelings who are party members. Git it? Morgoth: They'r eno different than say if one game had better grpahics than the other. G3 and NWN2 both have graphics; but G3's graphics are better. Both G3, and NWN2 have henchmen; but NWN2's is better. Git it?

"You're clearly missing the point Volo." Nope. You are. I said one thing and you (and others) went into whiney 'but G3 doesn't want to be NWN2' mode. I say tough crap nor did my initial repsonse that started this whole mess. I answered one guy's question - that if G3 had joinable npcs/henchmen. That answer is yes. Period. It should have been a dead issue then and there; but nooooooooooooo...... People have to 'FIGHT THE POWWA OF VOLO' to make themselves feel 'cool' on a message baord. R00fles! "But Gothic 3 doesn't want to be NWN2, and vice versa." Irrevelant. G3 has henchmen/joinable npcs. Therefore, I will judge it. Just like every other aspect of the game. Period. "I guess the "followers" in JE would then be categorized as henchmen too." Yup. Just, in thatc ase like in FO and NWN1 OC, the DM (bio) limited player conhtrol on it. ie Very littel other than choice of aggressive or passive.

"What exactly is the difference between expert hirelings, henchmen and party members?" Party members - Can be anything from fellow PCs, henchmen, expert hirelings, followers, summons (not usually though), charmed creatures (not usually), etc. Basiclaly, anyone that is deemed to be part of the party. Expert Hirelings - Skilled people that the PC hires. Thgis cna be anything from a hired assassin to a mason to hired goons to paid guards. This is where the NWN OC npcs come from since they join you specifically because you pay them to. Think of Expert Hirelings as employees with usually highly specialzied skills which is why some might not even count a 'good' or 'guard' as one. Henchmen - NPC Friends, allies, etc. of the PC who choose for their own personal reasons to join the PC(s) on their journey. This is where the typical CRPG npc party member comes from, and many games like BG1&2, PST, FOs, NWN2, the two NWN expansions, G3, and so on use. Usually, this group is controlled role-playing wise by the Dm with the player controlling the rolling and stats for it; but it cna be a mix of the two depending on what the DM and/or player agree on. P.S. Hell Kitty doesn't know what a henchman is. Sad, really.

Wrong. They both have henchmen. Period.

But, he didn't. He asked if there were party members. I answered yes. I told the truth, and certain people whined about the truth. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: 'Comparable' in this case was menat to mean about the same quality; not the same. They both having henchmen was a whole side discussion. Thanks for NOT reading the thread.

No one said they were. Doofus. But, both games have henchmen. Doofus. NWN2's henchmen are obviously superior to G3's henchmen. Doofus. But, they are both henchmen. Doofus. P.S. For those who can't tell, the doofus part is a joke. :crazy:

That would be hilarious! ) (then I would help her up! )

Nonsense. It was a funny joke. Deal with it.