Grant Dempsey

But then what did that have to do with what we were discussing?

That dialogue option for the Exile in the Hidden Tomb wasn't necessarily a sign that the Exile knew for a fact exactly what Kreia was planning, exactly what Kreia was manipulating him to do, and so on. It was just a suspiscion based on her general attitude toward him and whatnot, things that normal people could notice and pick up on, not a sign that he read her mind. If they were able to sense and read feelings, emotions, and thoughts through their bond -- so much so that the Exile would have even known exactly who Kreia was referring to when she said "the betrayer" -- then what would have stopped him from knowing everything about her early on?

It was never stated that the Exile and Kreia could read each other's thoughts and emotions. Only that their bond transmitted physical feelings, senses, power, and so on. If they were able to read one another's thoughts, particularly to the extent at which you're claiming (that the Exile could "read" the truth behind anything Kreia ever said to him), then the Exile should have been able to sense Kreia's manipulations very early on. So, why wasn't the Exile able to sense that Kreia was referring to Master Atris with that particular line, then? What difference would it make to their bond whether she was referring to herself or Master Atris?

I wasn't just reinforcing what you said. Yes, I believe Master Atris had been "converted" into Darth Traya or however you prefer to word it. (Speaking of which, if you "don't care about the cut material," why, then, should the alternate model/skin for Master Atris interest you?) I was simply arguing that they were both "Darth Traya". Not simply in the past, in Kreia's case, but in the present as well. In other words, I don't believe that Kreia was necessarily referring only to Master Atris when she spoke of "the betrayer".

I'm not so sure about that. For the cut scene of Kreia departing Atris' meditation room the developer inserted the following: {Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a sequence of Kreia leaving the holocron chamber along the walkway, the door open behind her. She is alone, and Traya cannot be seen. There should be the sense that something terrible has happened, but the player cannot see.} I assumed this meant that Kreia had converted Atris into the new Darth Traya. There is also the following dialog: Kreia: Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you. Atris: How did it happen? Kreia: Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall. Let us say that Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still. Atris: Why did he betray me? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wait, here's an addition! Kreia stated to you in one of your dialogue options with her that the Betrayer is female was "unknown", but that she would appear! I bet the "Betrayer" is Atris, uptillion-to-one :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think "Darth Traya" was ultimately meant to be both of them. No, I'm not referring to the cut content, I'm talking about the final version of the game. For the purpose of the Exile's confrontation with Master Atris, I believe she had indeed become the "new" Darth Traya. Kreia even spoke of Master Atris as "Darth Traya" at the Trayus Core on Malachor V (when asked, "Why did you destroy Atris?"). However, remember what Kreia said through the holocrons when (if) the Exile delivered the fatal blow to Master Atris. She said something along the lines of, "There must always be a Darth Traya. If she is not it, then I must take on that role, and prepare you for the times to come." Once Master Atris was either killed or simply beaten, I believe Kreia had then retaken that moniker for the purpose of the Exile's final confrontation with her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V.

I voted for "Other". I highly doubt we would actually return to Malachor V in the next game either way, but I also doubt that it wouldn't even be mentioned. If it does get mentioned, I imagine they would handle it in the same sort of way they handled the Star Forge's existence in this game: It would just depend on whichever alignment the player "set" the Exile to through dialogue options at the beginning of the game. Malachor V's survival or destruction would probably just be mentioned offhandedly at times, as was the case with the Star Forge, or something anyway.

When was it that Kreia said this, by the way? I thought I'd heard all of her dialogue, but I don't recall her ever mentioning why she was exiled, or even whether or not she was exiled in the first place (as opposed to just having left the Jedi Order)...

What I'm wondering about is what exactly Kreia meant when she addressed Disciple as "betrayer" as well. Before playing through the game for the second time, having played through as a male character the first time, I'd thought that the way "betrayal" was worked into Handmaiden's sidestory (including in Kreia's comments about her) served as potential evidence toward the theory that Kreia was Master Arren Kae (particularly with the Echani's belief in "disloyalty" being a trait that could be passed down through bloodlines and whatnot). The fact that it was worked into Disciple's sidestory, too, when Disciple had no apparent relation to Kreia other than having simply recognized her (probably just because he had seen her at the Jedi Academy he attended years ago or something), kind of worked against that idea about Handmaiden, though. I don't exactly understand what it was that Kreia was referring to when she called Disciple "betrayer" either, though. He turned away from the Jedi Order after the Exile first left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, but he didn't turn against the Jedi Order or betray any oath to it, as far as I knew. Hell, he still seemed to outwardly support the Jedi Order. Did Kreia simply consider his turning away from the Jedi Order a betrayal of his "destiny" or something along those lines? In the deleted scene wherein the Force Sensitive heroes (excluding the Exile and Bao-Dur) confronted Darth Traya at the Trayus Core on Malachor V themselves, she once said to Disciple something like, "Do not make this one of the many battles that you have run from." So, I suppose it could be just his leaving the Jedi Order that she was referring to... It just didn't entirely make sense to me.

Right. That was the Handmaiden. Whether or not the Exile was male or female, he/she still ended up at least meeting (or at least had the option of meeting) both Handmaiden and Disciple. The Exile's gender only actually determined which character joined the crew thereafter.

Yeah, and I just loaded up a save file on the Ravager from my Light Side playthrough and watched Visas Marr's meditation scene. In the Light Side version of the scene, there were faint whispers, some pretty clearly saying, "It's okay," and, "It's going to be okay." So, yeah, those sound files were indeed just from her meditation scene. The whispering from the Light Side version of the scene and the screaming from the Dark Side version of the scene.

Yeah, as said by hawk before me, there was an alternate version of Visas Marr's meditation scene on the Ravager for if her alignment was in the Dark Side. The voices that she heard whilst meditating were indeed various tormented screams and such, too, undoubtedly the sounds of the Miraluka that were slain on Katarr. So, that was probably what he found in those sound files.

Well, I would like to think that it was a highly symbolic spiritual journey for both Revan and the Exile in a sense, requiring spiritual strength more than physical machines (Kreia said as much), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire journey was literally a metaphysical one. I don't think it involved "transcending reality" to reach some higher plane of existence. I think it would still consist of visiting various mysterious and unexplored planets and whatnot. I think the main point behind Kreia's comments regarding how Revan knew he would not need machines and such where he was going, was simply to compliment Kreia's other statement. "Have we? You thought the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines and ships spawned by Revan, were the Sith?" I think it was also intended to compliment how characters throughout the game expressed how Revan knew "the true war" of the Jedi Civil War was going to be the one fought between Jedi, not warships, droids, or soldiers. I think Revan simply recognized that his war in the Unknown Regions was going to be one fought between beings in tune with the Force. As such, the journey most likely required a large amount of spiritual strength, both within one's self and within the Force.

It's just stuck there, apparently. As far as I know, no one has found a solution to that particular Quest, so most people consider it an unsolvable one.

Why couldn't both be accomplished with Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III? It seemed to me that Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords not only essentially just set the stage for the series becoming a trilogy, for resolution to be offered in the third installment, but also set the stage for what could be a very interesting adventure set in the Outer Regions. At this point, I feel like I would be very disappointed if Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III didn't continue the current storyline at all. I wouldn't want it to skip ahead fifty years into the future and just forget about Revan and the Exile. It would feel a lot more empty to me than Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords's ending came even close to feeling, I think. Even if it didn't just forget about Revan and the Exile, but still took place fifty years into the future, I still would prefer it not do so. Even if it still took place in the Outer Regions, following in their footsteps to confront the "True" Sith Empire, I just think it would end up feeling too...detached, from the previous two installments, as well as sort of lessen the impact of the threat posed by the "True" Sith Empire itself. Hearing about Revan and the Exile as "historical figures" that existed fifty years ago would kind of lessen my attachment to their characters for the duration of the third installment. Personally, I would prefer that Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III simply move forward by just a few years or so, like the gap between the first two.

Yes! I agree with you completely. I don't think Kreia had any "grand scheme" for accomplising "the death of the Force" because it simply wasn't her ultimate goal over the course of the game. Although, I do think it was quite clear that Kreia did indeed hate the Force, in accordance with her expressed philosophies. I feel that if she saw it within her power to "kill" the Force without simultaneously killing much of the life throughout the galaxy (by somehow ensuring that whatever echo she created would simply deafen whatever beings it touched and not kill them), she probably would be tempted to do so. As I see it, her ultimate goal over the course of the game was indeed quite simply to train the Exile to become her greatest apprentice (at least since Revan), and also to use the Exile to save the galaxy in other ways (such as confronting Master Atris and Darth Nihilus). She was originally drawn to the Exile for the fact that he had completely severed all his ties to the Force, which she perceived as "strength" in itself and admired. As she expressed after being beaten at the Trayus Core, she had hoped for the Exile to follow Revan's path out beyond the Outer Rim. However, she also made it relatively clear that it didn't really matter to her, whatever the Exile chose to do after completing his training with her. It was enough of a reward to her that he had completed his training and met her expectations by becoming powerful enough to defeat her.

Awesome! (w00t) That would've made for a very interesting climax. I especially loved your ideas on how all the removed content on Malachor V would've played out. There are a few things I disagree with (such as the Exile not confronting Kreia at the Trayus Core alone), but I still think it would've made for a great climax regardless. I have at least one idea right now that I would like to add, though... To further emphasize the differences between the Light Side climax and the Dark Side climax, I think perhaps it could be that a Dark Side player would actually control G0-T0 during the "The Mass Shadow Generator" Quest, whose mission it would be to retrace the Remote's steps and deactivate the consoles in each of the buried battleships across Malachor V's surface before ultimately catching up to the Remote itself at the final console. Or if not retracing the Remote's steps and deactivating the consoles, then G0-T0's mission could be something else that would still ultimately result in catching up to the Remote (perhaps a mission that could really put G0-T0's inherent Stealth ability to good use). I just think it would be more interesting if the ol' "hovering spherical droid" Quest on Malachor V differed between the two alignments' climaxes, even though the immediate outcome of both would remain the same (G0-T0 catching up to the Remote at the final console and immobilizing it). Besides, why should it necessarily be your mission to go about priming the Mass Shadow Generator as the Remote if you're playing along the Dark Side and therefore don't intend to activate it at all in the first place?

Well, yeah, my Exile would kick my Revan way back into amnesia in gameplay terms. "

I wouldn't bother saving levels for the sake of waiting for a Prestige Class. After all, isn't one of the requirements for even being able to get a Prestige Class that you have to be Level 15?

Well, I would be most inclined to say that they might be equally as powerful by the end of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords since Kreia seemed to regard the Exile as one of her greatest apprentices, on par with Revan. However, if I really had to choose, I would give the slight edge to Revan, in terms of raw power and potential. Besides, Revan was portrayed as extremely intelligent and wise. Not that the Exile wasn't as well, but, hey, Revan was the one who was basically manipulating almost the entire galaxy, not the Exile. I have no doubt, though, that the Exile still would be an incredibly worthy adversary for Revan (assuming they ever did fight one another). I would assume the two would most likely join forces sooner than they would fight one another, though. The Exile would basically be like a more powerful and more intelligent (and less traitorous) Malak for Revan, I guess. I mean, not necessarily that they would be Sith together. I'm just giving that as an example of what their partnership might be like.

Actually, he did get zombie soldiers in the final version of the game. They were on the Bridge of the Ravager, down on the (inaccessible) lower levels on each side of the room, busy working at their computer terminals. They were called "Nihilus Slaves"... If you select them from the upper level of the room (the only level you can access), a message pops up saying something like, "This man stares at you with vacant eyes."

Hey, I just thought of something... As we all probably know already, there were two paths through the Trayus Academy that would lead to the final chamber with Darth Sion and the door to the Trayus Core. One path was called "Trayus Proving Grounds" and the other path was called "Trayus Crescent". If you look at the actual Map when you're in the first area of the Trayus Academy, however, and you highlight one of the blue dots (nodes?) over one of the doors on the western side of the area (which led to what was called "Trayus Crescent" in the game), it listed the doors as leading to "Trayus Prison" instead. Perhaps a part of what would've originally determined whether or not the other heroes survived the adventure or faced death was going to be whichever path you chose to go through to get to that final chamber with Darth Sion: either the Trayus Prison/Trayus Crescent (to rescue them somehow) or the Trayus Proving Grounds (to abandon them to death and move on alone). I'm just thinking, maybe before these scenes were cut and everything, "Trayus Crescent" was originally going to be called "Trayus Prison" since of course, a "prison" might be where the other heroes were being kept in or trapped in or preoccupied in or what have you. Maybe after those scenes were ultimately cut, the name of the area was just changed to "Trayus Crescent" for the sake of it, but they left the original name on the nodes on the Map...

But then where do you draw the line? If there was to be, say, an action sequence during a cutscene, must it truly take HP and other gameplay statistics into account for each character involved? Should it display HP losses each time one character were to hit another? Should characters take turns against each other even during action sequences that happen during cutscenes? Should characters never be able to do things during cutscenes that they couldn't visibly do during gameplay? Blending gameplay with the storyline has worked out well sometimes, true, but the two shouldn't be merged together entirely, I think. At least, not the point at which plot points should be completely disregarded simply because they portrayed a character as more powerful or less powerful than they were shown to be during gameplay. Also, like I said, this has pretty much been my experience with all RPGs. I'm more of a console gamer than a PC gamer, though, so it could be that we're just used to different styles in gaming anyway (assuming that you're a PC gamer). In regard to Darth Sion torturing and/or killing Atton Rand specifically, I would say that the storyline was pretty much set up to portray Darth Sion as nearly physically immortal so long as his will was strong and his body was able to absorb the energies of the Dark Side of the Force. As others have mentioned, too, one of the key points of the Exile's confrontation with Darth Sion was the fact that the Exile was not only defeating Darth Sion in physical combat, but in "mental combat" as well, slowly erroding his will and beliefs each time the physical duel was interrupted. Furthermore, within the storyline, I think it's pretty safe to say that the Exile was intended to be more powerful, ultimately, than the others fighting alongside him, regardless of how their statistics actually were in gameplay. Sort of like comparing Luke Skywalker to Han Solo. If there were the case, it was no surprise that the Exile was able to handle Darth Sion in combat, even if Atton Rand was not. Within the realm of the storyline.

Well, it's always been my experience in gaming (at least with RPGs) that the realm of gameplay was generally kept separate from the realm of the storyline and the cutscenes. There have been some exceptions, but, y'know, things could generally occur in cutscenes (such as a character just getting stabbed or shot and actually dying from it) that wouldn't be a big deal if it had occured in gameplay (such as that same character just getting stabbed or shot and enduring it while only "receiving 10 HPs worth of damage" or something). So, those kinds of things don't really bother me. If Darth Sion truly had tortured and killed Atton, I don't think I would've found myself thinking, "Hey, wait, Darth Sion was so easy for my Exile to defeat that I'm sure my Atton could've killed him, too! What's going on here?" I'd just accept it as something that had occured within the realm of the storyline, rather than the realm of gameplay.

She can die during the fight against Darth Nihilus, actually. Even in the final version of the game. Simply equip Visas Marr with simple Clothing (no armor or robes) and some sort of melee weapon or lightsaber before entering the Bridge on the Ravager. During the mid-battle "intermission" moment (when Visas Marr said, "He's...too powerful..."), look for a new dialogue option there that will allow you to actually convince her to sacrifice herself. It was sort of portrayed as a cruel Dark Side-oriented action on your part to convince her to do so, more than any sort of uplifting resolution for Visas Marr's character, though...

Hey now. Kreia had Kinetic Combat, man. Plus, I seem to remember being stunned several times in a row by Kreia spamming Force Wave, Kill, Insanity, and other stunning spells against me, too... But, hey, for the poll, by being a "better" Sith Lord, do you mean better as a representative and leader of the actual Sith or better as in a more interesting character? 'Cause Kreia wasn't really much of a "Sith Lord" since her beliefs weren't very in line with the teachings of the Sith at all, making Darth Malak the better Sith Lord, but I would say Kreia was a more interesting character...