The Great Phantom

Well, the Jedi restructured a bit after the Sith Wars, and love was among the things discouraged. I don't think that it was actually forbidden for a while after. As for the Force Sensitive families: Your parents or ancestors don't have to be Jedi, or your uncle could be, but not your parents. This MAY make you Force Sensitive, which is why some families become Jedi.

What people seem to miss is that Kreia didn't necessarily want freedom, but something different. She hated the Force for more than the obvious reasons, as posted in a different thread. She hated Destiny, but that isn't right. Visas, Brianna, Atris, even Malak, all admit to Choice. Even Obi-Wan and Yoda say that the future is hard to tell, because Destiny is not permanent until it happens. I can't remember who said something like this: "The future is never the present until it is the past." or something to that point. The future can't be predicted, because of all the different choices. For example: Darth Revan's cereal is poisoned by Bastila. Does he eat his favorite Trix cereal, or does he go out to IHOP to eat, with his monthly paycheck? If he eats the Trix, then the galaxy is Revan-less. If he goes to IHOP, then Alfred, Revan and Bastila's illigitimate son gets poisoned sneaking his dad's food. See, there are 3+ senarios, not to mention the fact that Bastila didn't have to remain alive this long, with Revan being the genius that he is. Or, Revan could be a girl. Or, Bastila could be a brainwashed Gizka in disguise. Ok, that's exagerating a bit, but you get my point.

She did show Sith-ish traits at the very end, but she was twisted by her anger at pretty much every side. That is why we see more grey: She hates the Jedi for taking away humanity; she hates the Sith for being inhuman. Same things, on different ends of the spectrum. She started off with good intentions, but these became twisted into a hate for the Force itself, on which all life relies upon. I do think that she 'loved' the Exile, but that was because she saw Choice. While Visas and Handmaiden (and even Atris; shall we even mention Malak???) all admit that there is choice (The Force controls, but is controlable. You have to listen...). Malak does it in anguish at his choices, as does Atris. Visas and Handmaiden say it in terms of redemption. After all, if there was no choice, then the Jedi Code would be worthless. They seek balance, but do not say that the Force controls EVERYTHING. As said before, who knows what Destiny is until the Choices have been made? "The Future is always in motion." Over all, I think Kreia hates Revan's fall. She tries to rationalize it as many things (I prefer her sacrifice), but in the end, Revan was the final string. She grew sick of it all, and came up with the Plot... Well, judging by the time, and the current Stock Market, not to mention oil prices, there's my $20.99 (from 2 cents... Economy stinks right now. )

Here's my basic Helicopter analogy, with explanations. I posted this in a discussion about how the Force doesn't control the Exile, which is PARTLY true. The Exile is a hole in the Force, which is like seeing a charging herd of cattle headed right towards your primitive settlement, but the Exile is in a helicopter. He's on a totally different level, and can seem unnatural to the untrained eye. BUT, he can lower himself to just over the ground, and aim his gun at either the settlement or the herd, which is what he does when he reties himself to the Force. He's in it now, and is involved, but can 'pull out' whenever he needs to. Nihilus is a hole in both the Force and Life, which is why he seems to be an extreme Exile: He fills in both gaps, with the connection between the Force and peoples' lives. Visas elaborates on this some. Therefore, Nihilus is a high-speed bomber. He's much more threatening, and is 'large' enough to only notice the big things: the settlements, and maybe the herd. BUT, the Helicopter, if well practiced, can give the Bomber heck if he flies low enough, to 'feed'. The Bomber also fits Nihilus because if he 'stops', then he'll 'fall' to his death. He is already 'dead', because he was revived on Malachor V. He needs to fill in both spaces, or suffer, whereas the Exile only lost the Force, and is a vacuum that picks it up wherever he is able. Well, that is a watered down and modified (to fit the discussion) version of my Helicopter analogy. Some points need tweaking, but it's served its purpose in many discussions. :ph34r:

Well, she was positive, in a twisted way. Thanks for clearing a few things up. Kreia's plot was not good, but the Exile theme was cool, but nobody ever does it again, except perhaps on a Nihilus level... Have you heard my helicopter analogy??? It covers a lot we've discussed. The Exile is outside of the Force, but still is involved in it, to an extent. Besides, Revan needs the help of a paradox, right about now... Kreia was twisted from her original goal, and I don't think she went about doing things the right way, even with the right ideas. An LS Exile (in my case) would have seen the wisdom of the Council, and submitted (like it would have helped, it probably would have been like Nihilus trying to feed on him/her). I don't see the Exile as Death, but Hope (I like Visas, ok??? , but not as much as Bastila ). He shows that anything is endurable, with the right attitude. Kreia saw him as a way to get revenge on the Jedi, and this twisted her reason. Let's leave it at this for now...

Is that all you 'boost'? Let me know if he becomes the Grand Chancellor or whatever it's called... I never really liked Desciple, even as a male PC, but he did sound kinda cool... Too bad you can't talk to him after your first encounter... I miss Bastila... The best part of Carth's romance was killing him as DS... Most satisfying moment of the game... I compare it with throwing Kreia to her doom in Malachor V's core...

Well, Kotor 1&2 are sort of post Exar Kun, aren't they ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I feel bad for the Jedi Order if guys like Atton the Fool (Come on, if he was a Jedi, the whole damn galaxy would be filled with lying pazaak-playing, twi'lek-flirting, whining Jedi-wannabies), or Handmaiden (She's weak! Face it! She's WEAK! I dont care how much Sith that sounds, she's weak! ), or Desciple (Need I even comment? <_< ) were to raise the new Jedi order. Exile is far from being Jedi (what's worse than Atton-type Jedi is Exile-type, life-consuming, Nihilus-mimicking, catastrophe-causing Jedi who cant even feel the force, and flirt with WEAK Handmaidens or Twi'lek-flirting Attons! ). Visas always has that veil on her face. Do we /really/ want to know why she has that veil? Hmmmm? So, as my point goes, aside from my much-unneeded comments, few are really a Jedi in KotOR II. Romance is clearly a valid option Jedi on KotOR II really have issues, and are a fitting targets for HK-47-type mockeries in KotOR III. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I want to point something really odd out now. When 'flirting' with Visas, if you talk with Kreia she says something similar to the following: "Did you not ever wonder if the rest of her body beneath her robes was as pure and unblemmished as her face?" That made me nauseous at first, but then it sounded kinda... hot...

BUT... and again: BUT... It also was key to pulling her back. Revan gave her a taste when she saved him, and as LS, he fixes his own errors, and redeems them both. I think that if their love was forbidden, that would just be stupid. Love in their sense is 'pure', and helps them both, even after the side affects. Besides, they both left the Order shortly after Kotor I, Revan to find the Darkness, Bastila to hunt down Revan.

Was this his DS or LS future? There are subtle differences... It sounds like Kreia twisted the futures to sound like her in various aspects... Oh, that pazaak makes much more sense... So, who's winning?

Well you've convinced me <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Found an error. Kreia's plan involved killing most of the people that felt the Force... Should we make a list of her many plots? 1. Death of the Force and all that Feel it. 2. Train the Exile to follow Revan. 3. Revenge. 4. Create echoes, part of #1.

I know. But the Bastila/Revan is still a key to my liking the Kotor series in the first place...

Thanks, much appreciated! Oh, yeah, how do you play 3 way pazaak? Atton/T3/LadyCrimson... Now that's pazaarik... cards on a board... (Pazaak/Dejarik)

For the same reason it is mostly woman who write FanFics... whatever that is. Nice pissie, Liz... far better than I could ever do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm a man, and I don't post fanfics, but I have quite a lot, but I don't think very many people are interested in my work... It's usually appropriate... I can't draw worth crap, but my Stick Figures of Enlightenment would kick everybody's butt! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll give you stickmen of enlightment!! :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> AHHH! Too much detail! You're an affront to Stick Figures!!!!! *Grabs a stick torch with little stripes eminating from it.* Down with the detailed drawings!!!

What did Kreia say??? Dang it, now I gotta go play as a female PC...

I'm not even going to say anything... :ph34r:

The romances were allowed pre-Exar Kun. Then the Jedi restructured against humanity... The Male Revan/ Bastila romance was actually a key focus of Kotor I, and I would like them to die sharing one last embrace, with Bastila promising Revan to hold true to the LS, and finish his work... Now that would be an emotionally fulfilling ending!

Notice how everybody agreed on one thing: What happened to the Exile was bad. Very Bad. Everyone that knows anything except Kreia agrees with this. As for her strengthening thing: If only the strong survive, but are deafened to the essence of Life, then what's the point? I couldn't make out the rest of your post, so if I missed something, lemme know.

Visas stops after the first 1 or 2 convo's, but has a cool clip at the end or nearby... Handmaiden has 'nudist' dueling (in her underwear that cover less than the Dancers Costume)... Plus, her conversion story is really cool... Take Bao with you on Dantooine, into the cave after you get the swoop quest. Influence gains a few new options on several characters, in fact. My first play through LS Male, I got full influence with Kreia... I don't see the problem. All you have to do is go along with a FEW of her things, or just say "I will think about this." over and over, and she'll be content, even if you've read spoiler forums and know who she is already.

I say screw 29.99! I want my money's worth in the first place! Okay, I feel better. Oh, wait, one more thing. Lucas Arts, WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

On to T3's poll!

Oh, and you forgot an option: Obsidian, why couldn't she have worn the Dancer's Outfit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That would make the poll interesting, instead of another character investigation...

The Exile was a paradox, which I don't think Kreia understood. If he didn't bond willy-nilly, then this never would have happened in the first place...

For the same reason it is mostly woman who write FanFics... whatever that is. Nice pissie, Liz... far better than I could ever do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm a man, and I don't post fanfics, but I have quite a lot, but I don't think very many people are interested in my work... It's usually appropriate... I can't draw worth crap, but my Stick Figures of Enlightenment would kick everybody's butt!

There was another logic puzzle somewhere... It was pretty cool... Maybe I'll try to find it.

I think that atire should have more affects, like it did with the Handmaiden post dueling. Atton should stutter, and Visas could remain oblivious, with no eyes... Kreia could call you a fool, and Disciple could say: "A Jedi should not do that... but it's working for me!" That way, he'd get a little bit more notice... Now, I'm a Male PC, sooo... Just suggesting something for you modders!