Martial Arts Skill

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Please get a consultant who has martial arts knowledge and implement animations that are interesting to watch (plausible moves would be an additional plus). We all know what happened with the NWN2 combat animations . . .

 

P.S.- I'm available at reasonable rates.

[SteveThaiBinh]

We all know what happened with the NWN2 combat animations . . .

We do? I don't think I do. What happened?

 

Welcome to the forums, by the way. I hope they've been watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon - if, as we've been led to believe, we're getting 'enhanced' realism, then wire-fu is the way to go.

[Zoma]

Nothing wrong with the actual animations of NWN2 IMO. The problem is simply the restrictions involved in creating a fluid awesome series of chain attack execution limited by the clunky combat engine.

 

To prove the point, the combat animations in KOTOR2 is nothing short of stunning back then. Most of the moves were clearly inspired from martial arts shows.

 

Back to your concern for AP, rest assure from what we know so far for AP's combat animation they are mostly taken from motion capture to be implemented in the game.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Thanks Steve, and . . .

 

We do? I don't think I do. What happened?

 

Hmm, so, I have a rather long analysis prepared somewhat relevant to both of your posts, but subjecting you to it might be cruel, unusual, and unnecessary. The short version is that they're not particularly exciting to watch and don't reflect the epic blade-beating tendencies of DnD source material (imagine watching the Princess Bride swordfight in the NWN2 engine). Certainly most people on the PW I play are sick of the animations, many of them practically since release.

 

If you like, I can post the whole thing. That said, I doubt either of you are against having better-looking melee combat in games, which was my main point. Particularly in a game with firearms, if close combat is worth doing at all, it's worth doing well.

 

Back to your concern for AP, rest assure from what we know so far for AP's combat animation they are mostly taken from motion capture to be implemented in the game.

 

I'm glad to hear it, although there's mocap and then there's mocap. Sometimes what you get from generalist stuntmen is kind of "meh." It'd be ideal if they had, for example, a CIA combatives instructor doing the choreography (edit: if not the mocap).

Edited August 11, 2008 by Cl_Flushentityhero

[Zoma]

We'll find out won't we after the first combat video is released.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Or if Obs is willing to drop a name or two . . .

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Matrix fight scenes?

 

 

I hope not. Yes they're awesome, but they're over-over-the-top.

[Master Assassin]

I'm glad to hear it, although there's mocap and then there's mocap. Sometimes what you get from generalist stuntmen is kind of "meh." It'd be ideal if they had, for example, a CIA combatives instructor doing the choreography (edit: if not the mocap).

 

I would be leery of anyone who proclaimed themselves a 'CIA combatives instructor' (I don't believe that is the term used but I could be wrong) - I'd settle for anyone who could make the combat look believable AND fun to pull off. Not a travesty like the Bourne Conspiracy where proximity determines whether or not you engage a foe in CQB.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I don't know what they are officially called, but there are people (not me) who teach or have taught combatives to the CIA (and you could probably verify their credentials to a certain extent). I'm guessing by your post you know the amount of rampant crap being passed off as effective martial art; and that most people claiming to teach killer commando MA tend to be full of it to varying degrees. As such, it certainly wouldn't *hurt* the game to have somebody who trains government personnel for making the overall portrayal more authentic (and hence believable).

 

I'd settle for anyone who could make the combat look believable AND fun to pull off.

 

Me too. As for how the system works in-game, that's pretty much in the hands of game design.

 

I admit, I'm a little skeptical on the believability part based on the rumor of a flying knee against somebody with a drawn gun. Okay, maybe god's gift to Muay Thai could instantly knock somebody unconscious with one; but more likely the guy is on the ground writhing in pain . . . still able to shoot.

 

That said, it could potentially be handled in a believable fashion, and I'll reserve final judgment for when we see it in action. *That* said, I kind of doubt Obs is going to release a hand to hand trailer at all. Their previous titles did not include much in the way of gameplay trailers, or trailers at all really.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Cl_Flushentityhero

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

For reference, here's a great flying knee "knockout."

 

 

Now, I'm not badmouthing it, this is one of the smoothest moves I've seen in MMA. He hit the guy then spins off him, landing on his feet easily.

 

Notice, however, that a "knockout," as typically seen in sports, leaves the guy still conscious. Disoriented and hurting, yes, but conscious. He even tries to get up until he recieves a follow-up hit; at which point he is not out, but "playing dead" because he knows he's lost the fight and doesn't want to take unnecessary punishment.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Finding a practical martial art that also reads well can be difficult; many of the most effective martial arts for one-on-one defense have relatively subtle movements. We found an art that is visually very satisfying and also practical, and our very experienced consultant was also used extensively for mocap. I think people will be happy with the look and feel of our CQC moves.

 

That said, I don't think there are a lot of serious martial artists who would ever recommend using hand-to-hand attacks against someone with a firearm unless there were literally no other option. As designers, given the choice between making an action-spy RPG with effectively no mid-combat hand-to-hand (because it isn't realistic) or having hand-to-hand that stretches the plausible, I think it's wise that we went with the latter.

 

Mike isn't doing Guile's Flash Kick or anything like that, but he can (and does) engage armed enemies at close range with real-world hand-to-hand attacks.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Now, suppose we were to create an anti-gun version of the previous move. The knee alone wouldn't be enough to keep Thornton safe.

 

Getting close enough is in the hands of the player, so I'll ignore that part. Use cover, sneak up on him, whatever. Either way, you'd have to have running momentum going into it obviously.

 

The knee itself would have to be executed in such a way as to either clear the gun out of the way (let's say a two-handed weapon, since that could potentially block a knee) or avoid it. So, the move needs to be altered so that Thornton isn't at risk of being shot and so that he doesn't hit the rifle/shotgun instead of the person. Realistically, the person might counter or defend anyway, but for game purposes perhaps they're too surprised to react. Still, not waltzing in front of a muzzle during the move is a pretty worthy accommodation to make.

 

After the knee, the guy does a sort of spinning pull takedown, which would be great. He's behind the guy at that point, so probably not going to get shot as long as he nabs the shotgun on the way down.

 

Once the guy hits the ground (preferably head-first, which could be fatal on a hard surface), he's in a perfect position to have his weapon levered out of his hands and used against him (shot or hit with it). Odds of him drawing a sidearm before he gets knocked out for good are pretty slim.

 

Theoretically, there's no real point in there where the enemy could just pull the trigger and Thornton would be a goner (once he closes the distance, anyway). Likewise, the enemy wouldn't just get up after a minute or two and go after him again. Simply delivering the knee and expecting that to end things, however, would be pretty questionable.

 

I suppose we all have our own standards for believability, so maybe I'm agonizing over details that don't matter to most people. Also, all this is based on a previewer offhandedly mentioning "flying knee," so there's really no telling how it's handled in game.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Eh, caught me in mid post. Thanks for the info, Sawyer, and I agree with pretty much everything said (though IMO nothing wrong with subtlety). Still looking forward to that HTH trailer, though )

[Joseph Bulock]

We have a number of people on the team who are also active martial artists, and we've had plenty of really impressive martial artists from outside come in and do mo-cap work.

[Pidesco]

Are those martial arts skills ever used on coworkers, for example, during bitterly disputed design meetings?

[Joseph Bulock]

Are those martial arts skills ever used on coworkers, for example, during bitterly disputed design meetings?

 

I may or may not have put a reinforced choke on Alvin earlier today.

[Pop]

I wonder if there's going to be more than one style of martial art, ala Van Buren or, uh, Jade Empire. That'd be cool.

 

And as far as animation / mocap goes, that's my second concern. My first concern is hit detection. How's it going to work? Will there be area-specific damage to limbs and the like? How will it interact with the physics and environment? That sort of thing is what makes unarmed combat interesting in the first place. Nobody wants Bloodlines combat + a disarm move.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Pop

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I'm guessing it's something along the lines of button press -> two-person mocap animation. With shooters, there is seldom a combat system so much as pre-mocapped sequences that are triggered when the player initiates close combat. This eliminates the problems of hit detection because characters are animated to interact in a pre-determined fashion.

 

It would be cool if they had area-specific animations like slamming somebody into a wall/desk though.

 

With different styles, I'm guessing it's somewhat beyond the already-ambitious scope of AP; at least in the first installment.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I predict there will be a roundhouse kick.

 

And I'm really looking forward to seeing the actual CQC mechanics in action. Things like that are much easier to shwo off in trailers...

[Xard]

Are those martial arts skills ever used on coworkers, for example, during bitterly disputed design meetings?

 

Very likely

[Alvin Nelson]

Are those martial arts skills ever used on coworkers, for example, during bitterly disputed design meetings?

 

I may or may not have put a reinforced choke on Alvin earlier today.

He totally did guys...

[Pidesco]

Yeah, yeah. I'm betting it was more like an embrace of sweet love.

[Tigranes]

Bulock love is tough love, like love of Canadian mother bear.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Oh yeah, and because the horse isn't quite dead yet, can we also initiate hand to hand from dialogue?

 

Previews have mentioned the "draw gun" dialogue option, and I'd think that mid-conversation is about as believable a situation for close combat as you're going to get. It's quite the spy movie cliche to boot.

[Jason Bourne]

Knee to the face or choke holds aren't something I'd consider great martial arts skills in videogames. Most federal government agencies use krav maga, like the secret service. I know in the CIA, they teach you to use anything that could be turned into a weapon. Think of Bourne when he rolled up the magazine.

 

Anyway, I think some of your guy's ideas like environmental takedowns are awesome.