The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[dunehunter]

 

PALADIN

 

-Change Flames of Devotion from "full attack" to "primary attack"

 

Paladin should be a defensive / supportive class. But people multiclass it for maximum DPS because of Flames of Devotion.

 

I have never seen a dual wielding paladin in any fantasy setting ever. It's always weapon and shield or two-handed weapon.

 

This fixes classes like rogue, cipher, barbarian, etc... taking paladin multiclass just for the 1 resource point insane high DPS ability.

 

I like this and support this idea. being full attack ability is quite op at the moment.

Especially with kind wayfarer who get double heal too. No need for healers if you have a dual wield kind wayfarer.

Making it a primary attack with a little buffed fire damage makes it work as intented.

 

 

You also never see a rogue backstab with a big 2h sword, welcome to pillars.

[Soulmojo]

Without me if it is like POE1.

 

Paladin was one of the worse class. I don't want go back in this system. Paladin is mainly single target. (more than fighter now)

 

So, if you cut (again) FoD, Choose a paladin more than a Fighter will be extremely difficult.

 

Fighter and paladin need a niche of High single DPS, it is normal. If not I pick 5 assassin-evoker you know ? End of the game. Be careful with that...

 

 

I don't agree with you on this. 

Palading was quite ok in PoE1 in my opinion.

With sacred immolation, and the heals the paladin was an integral part of my group. Sure, 4-5 flames of devotion would have been better instead of two, but nonetheless, with a good armor and the right weapon it performed quite ok as a dps.

[theBalthazar]

With sacred immolation, and the heals the paladin was an integral part of my group. Sure, 4-5 flames of devotion would have been better instead of two, but nonetheless, with a good armor and the right weapon it performed quite ok as a dps.

 

 

My best team was :

 

Overworld

Priest - Druid (Cat) - Druid (cat) - Chanter - Ranger  - Barbarian 

 

Bosses

Priest - Druid - Druid - Chanter - Wizard - Wizard

 

Each time I used a Paladin, it was clearly inferior in all points. Same for Fighter. The worst classes ever, without any doubt.

 

So When arrived POE2, I was happy theses classes beginning to becoming high tiers. For a single target like rogue, monk paladin or partially for fighter, this is -normal-.

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Soulmojo]

 

With sacred immolation, and the heals the paladin was an integral part of my group. Sure, 4-5 flames of devotion would have been better instead of two, but nonetheless, with a good armor and the right weapon it performed quite ok as a dps.

 

 

My best team was :

 

Overworld

Priest - Druid (Cat) - Druid (cat) - Chanter - Ranger  - Barbarian 

 

Bosses

Priest - Druid - Druid - Chanter - Wizard - Wizard

 

Each time I used a Paladin, it was clearly inferior in all points. Same for Fighter. The worst classes ever, without any doubt.

 

 

Well, I had pallegina in my team, and I finished  the game without any other heal besides hers once I had her. I didn't really used potions too except dragon fights. Granted, I played on veteran difficulty only. Once I popped sacred Immolation and chain heal I was set. Plus give paladin some lore, then twin stones scroll, and you have your overpowered aoe character. If you have sacred immolation nothing can kill your party really. If you had two paladin with sacred immolation, then all you had to do is sit calmly waiting for the enemy to drop dead.....maybe cast some of those twin stones scrolls....

Edited May 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[marc5477]

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

And how do you plan to nerf yourself during the 2nd play through? The nerfs will do nothing if you already have meta knowledge of the game.

 

Honestly if you do nerf, I would only do it for PotD. I think new players should be able to find these OP abilities in their 1st run on another difficulty.

[dunehunter]

I‘m playing on beta now, heard it fixed the enemy lvl upscale bug. Already get bored with the original game when i was lvl 8, combat has no challenges at all.

[ppscurry]

Limiting rest supplies honestly makes no sense in pillars 2 given how short most dungeons are. Plus, if you limit rest supplies now, you're indirectly buffing characters that can regenerate their empower points.

 

With everything set at per encounter, only thing you would hit is empower which has a huge supply already anyway and item abilties which arent really that overpowered to begin with, at least i never felt the need to rely on them except for that one or two boss fights with particularly annoying resistances.

 

Just change the way empower interacts with certain abilities. Those are the clear outliers. Minoletta, wilting etc.

 

Chanter resource regeneration honestly isn't that strong anyway except for spell casters. People keep focusing on the whole infinite resource part of it but forget that you have to pay the price of being a multiclass in a solo run which bars PL9,8 abilities. If you are running a full party, can you even run out of resources??

 

Don't forget multiclasses need to be lvl 19,20 to benefit from it. By that time, you are already overpowered, it's just icing on the cake then. Pure class chanters get it early for sure but its not that strong tbh, it's powerful but not overpowered since you still have to wait for your 5-6 stacks of phrases to build up unlike wizards who only need 3 seconds.

 

Swift flurry on the other hand is available so early and can be comboed easily with items.

[theBalthazar]

It has been a long time I said, Single class must access to an increased PL with empower.

 

We take the previous proposition :

 

PL+3 / 2 by encounter.

> For MULTICLASS...

 

PL+5 / 2 by encounter.

> For SINGLE CLASS...

 

Because honestly who can tell single class is actually better ? Few classes doesn't gain really anything. Monk/Wizard are perhaps exceptions, even if an empowered concussive minolietta is already enough for nuke. No need to Meteor shower...

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Nanomachin]

Is there a particular reason why disintegrate is not mentioned in this thread ? At the time I thought the damage numbers on that skill was a typo, but it turns out to be the real thing. I don't know how it's possible to design any boss in a game where that spell is a thing.

[Voltron]

God, looking at "ideas" here I am glad I don't autopatch my RPGs. 

 

Most of changes here will make game dull with character wielding paper towels....

FoD as single attack instead of Full Attack- yeah, great idea, lets make Paladin bad again like in PoE1. Guys has finally some dmg vs single target + heal as he should have as Paladin- no, lets make it hit for little damage.

 

Chanter is the only class that can regen resources in end-game- lets take that unique thing away, casue I can't just not choose that invocation if I find it too strong... ow, wait, I can.

 

A combos with B and make super combo? Nerf it, I don't want combos. I want to auto attack only!

 

To sum this thread up "Let's nerf everything that combos or give advantage in game so we can all go back to auto-attacking enemies and therefore PotD will be challange again"! 

 

It's not Dark Souls you know.... Well even in Dark Souls you could pretty much 2-shot everything at end-game..

 

I agree that some stuff like Inner Death or Empower spells are totally OP. But most other stuff you mentioned here is ok and mostly end game. Paladin passive giving +21 defenses. Well, I didn't know that Paladin theme is defenses and healing in RPGs....wait.... ow.

 

You know that nobody ever nerfed in BG2 Time Stop->Acceleration->Abi Dalzim + Chain Lightning -> watch whole screen die. Or Kensai/Mage late game combo? Well, casue it's fun and shows your power once you are on high levels. 

Cause whats the point for getting to that later levels in RPG if you still feel like average enemy foot soldier.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[Nanomachin]

Cause whats the point for getting to that later levels in RPG if you still feel like average enemy foot soldier.

 

Turning that around, what's the point of getting to endgame to meet fantastical, gigantic creatures like dragons, krakens and giant ancient golems if they feel like an average enemy foot soldier ?

[JerekKruger]

 

Rest spam also needs to be addressed, otherwise Empower should just be removed.

Agreed, I wouldn't mind seeing Camping Supplies return (with lower cap based on difficulty, like in Pillars 1). Want to Empower every encounter? Go ahead, but it's going to cost you precious real time and copper (for crew wages, food and camping supplies). Now if I want to clear content as efficiently as possible, I'm going to save those Empowers for the toughest encounters, or to save a character from getting injured. Costing the player time won't stop everyone from abusing the rest system, but it would make most people think before they hit that magic button. At least it worked on me in Pillars 1.

Camping supplies were a good idea made bad because Obsidian didn't commit. If every map didn't have 1-3 camping supplies somewhere on it then being limited to carrying two would have made resting feel actually limited (despite what some say most players don't have the patience to regularly run back to town to buy more) but as it was you could pretty much rest whenever needed without any problems.

 

So yeah, if be happy to see them return so long as they aren't scattered across the world.

[Nanomachin]

Resting supplies are not limited, they just impose a loading screen tax on the player. There is nothing in the economy of PoE 1 and 2 that makes limited resting a fully fledged game mechanic instead of just something that forces you to go back to town and buy more firewood. If you want to see a game loop that successfully makes resting a thing, look at Darkest Dungeon - but POE is not Darkest Dungeon, and it cannot stop players from or punish them for walking out the dungeon and back into town. There has never been a successful implementation of resting in games like POE, you need to let it go.

 

 

 

Rest spam also needs to be addressed, otherwise Empower should just be removed.

Agreed, I wouldn't mind seeing Camping Supplies return (with lower cap based on difficulty, like in Pillars 1). Want to Empower every encounter? Go ahead, but it's going to cost you precious real time and copper (for crew wages, food and camping supplies). Now if I want to clear content as efficiently as possible, I'm going to save those Empowers for the toughest encounters, or to save a character from getting injured. Costing the player time won't stop everyone from abusing the rest system, but it would make most people think before they hit that magic button. At least it worked on me in Pillars 1.

Camping supplies were a good idea made bad because Obsidian didn't commit. If every map didn't have 1-3 camping supplies somewhere on it then being limited to carrying two would have made resting feel actually limited (despite what some say most players don't have the patience to regularly run back to town to buy more) but as it was you could pretty much rest whenever needed without any problems.

So yeah, if be happy to see them return so long as they aren't scattered across the world.

 

[Midol]

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

[Voltron]

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

 

 

This. You can always challange yourself. In RPG you choose to be OP or not.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[theBalthazar]

Camping supplies were a good idea made bad because Obsidian didn't commit. If every map didn't have 1-3 camping supplies somewhere on it then being limited to carrying two would have made resting feel actually limited (despite what some say most players don't have the patience to regularly run back to town to buy more) but as it was you could pretty much rest whenever needed without any problems.

 

So yeah, if be happy to see them return so long as they aren't scattered across the world. 

 

 

 

Problem, if you do that, casual player can be frustrated.

 

Casual isn't a great gamer and don't use all options in this kind of game.

 

He can feel "what ? I must already return in town, boring !"

 

So, the best system is a portion of time by encounter. For me, the best idea is = empower refilled after each battle, less powerful, more possibilities (2 vs 1) AND by encounter.

 

With that :

 

- Casual are not disadvantaged.

- Empower is not a stupid nuke.

- Malicious players cannot rest after each battle for abusive tricks.

- Single class have a slighty more advantage to be a master of her art.

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Pandemic Legion]

"Nature Godlike"

[JerekKruger]

This. You can always challange yourself. In RPG you choose to be OP or not.

Whilst technically true this misses the point. Some people want to play a certain class and uses certain abilities because they sound/look cool. In the current balance some of those abilities are game breakingly powerful (empowered meteor storm) or plain terrible (sacred Immolation). It's a completely reasonably position to take to want the game rebalanced to remove these extremes. This doesn't mean perfect balance where every class is as powerful as every other and no abilities are weak/strong, it just means making the diffetences less extreme (PoE achieved this well by the end).

 

@theBalthasar - my point is that if you're going to have per rest the camping supplies could have worked, but not the way Obsidian did it. All per encounter is a perfectly viable alternative.

 

Currently though empower is or rest and you can rest every fight for basically nothing (price it hardtack) and there's no limit on it.

[JibSail]

Two things, real quick.

 

1. I think trying to balance the game before the potd content fix is a bit of a noob move.

Obsidian knows that there are issues with the difficulty and they've said they are working on it.

This means that any suggestion that involves numbers, scaling and/or counters are premature.

 

2. There is more to balancing a game than fixing scaling and numbers. It's about creating a situation where the player (of any skill level) feels that they've earned a victory. This is something that, at it's core, involves mechanics and clever use of illusion.

(A good example of this is how you only get the blue shell in mario cart when you are far behind, or how Max Payne's ai added aim assist without the player knowing after calculating your skill)

 

What I'm trying to say here is that the thread is trying to address a problem that is actually a symptom.

 

We need to try and look past buffing and nerfing and look at unique and clever ways of making the hard core number cruncher feel that they won a fight by the skin of their teeth.

[theBalthazar]

If you are immortal, more or less accuracy, number of ennemies, or  defenses change nothing.

 

You can put 3 constitution for all your character easily. It is not a problem...

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Zeitzbach]

We also seems to forget that some of the strong skills can just be moved to enemies to spice up the challenge. There's a reason why fighters are so frustrating to fight because they use double unbending too.

 

The only problems are the AoE gibbing the enemies. Solution? Sigils. Implement more bonus stat sigil for the enemy, like armor increase or "Defense against AoE" buff. THey already have anti AoE code on Ranger skill anyway.

 

 

If you are immortal, more or less accuracy, number of ennemies, or  defenses change nothing.

 

Again, just give the Ranger enemy ability to use concussive tran. Try being immortal after that because they can actually deal with overbuffing for once. There's already Target: Has Inspiration on the AI menu so it's not even hard to add that.

 

Create situations where players have to adapt. That's how you make game harder and still fun, not tedious.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[ecogen]

Two things, real quick.

 

1. I think trying to balance the game before the potd content fix is a bit of a noob move.

Obsidian knows that there are issues with the difficulty and they've said they are working on it.

This means that any suggestion that involves numbers, scaling and/or counters are premature.

 

2. There is more to balancing a game than fixing scaling and numbers. It's about creating a situation where the player (of any skill level) feels that they've earned a victory. This is something that, at it's core, involves mechanics and clever use of illusion.

(A good example of this is how you only get the blue shell in mario cart when you are far behind, or how Max Payne's ai added aim assist without the player knowing after calculating your skill)

 

What I'm trying to say here is that the thread is trying to address a problem that is actually a symptom.

 

We need to try and look past buffing and nerfing and look at unique and clever ways of making the hard core number cruncher feel that they won a fight by the skin of their teeth.

 

This.

 

Heavy handed blanket nerfs will ruin the experience, it's much better to wait and see where PotD ends up being in regards to difficulty and go from there.I'd much rather they buff encounters then nerf everything to the ground.

 

That said, some things are way out of line like some swift flurry interactions, the brilliant inspiration, faith and conviction/deep faith etc.

 

On the other hand there are some high level abilities which are garbage (looking at you sacred immolation).

 

The thing I'm not quite sure on how they will get around to balancing (or if they will get around to balancing) is the fact that you can get some incredibly OP gear early on, personally I don't mind it being there but some might think it's another way to trivialize the game.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

 

Or maybe you need to be a grownup and get over your favorite OP character getting nerfed so that we actually have an interesting tactical game with meaningful choices?

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Voltron]

 

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

 

Or maybe you need to be a grownup and get over your favorite OP character getting nerfed so that we actually have an interesting tactical game with meaningful choices?

 

 

Why should he? It's Single Player RPG. If he will want he will pop God-Mode with Console and be super OP anyway.

 

Thing is- you can choose to be OP or not in RPG. Nobody force you to take Inner Death at Level IX, which is basicelly DnD "Banshee scream".

 

Did you ever thought of possibility that there are people who find it fun being OP, especially in end game, in single player RPG?

 

Or you just think only your way of thinking about this and other games is correct, while everyone else should just bow to your "balancing" idea?

 

Different people find different things fun in game. Imagine that. 

So maybe, just maybe, stop speaking like you speak on behalf of whole community as I guarantee you 90% of people playing this game don't even visit forum, they just play single player RPG game and enjoy it. And I can also guarantee you- those players are more happy than sad when they find how to be stronger in RPG.

 

It's not PvP ffs.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[MadDemiurg]

God, looking at "ideas" here I am glad I don't autopatch my RPGs. 

 

Most of changes here will make game dull with character wielding paper towels....

 

FoD as single attack instead of Full Attack- yeah, great idea, lets make Paladin bad again like in PoE1. Guys has finally some dmg vs single target + heal as he should have as Paladin- no, lets make it hit for little damage.

 

Chanter is the only class that can regen resources in end-game- lets take that unique thing away, casue I can't just not choose that invocation if I find it too strong... ow, wait, I can.

 

A combos with B and make super combo? Nerf it, I don't want combos. I want to auto attack only!

 

To sum this thread up "Let's nerf everything that combos or give advantage in game so we can all go back to auto-attacking enemies and therefore PotD will be challange again"! 

 

It's not Dark Souls you know.... Well even in Dark Souls you could pretty much 2-shot everything at end-game..

 

I agree that some stuff like Inner Death or Empower spells are totally OP. But most other stuff you mentioned here is ok and mostly end game. Paladin passive giving +21 defenses. Well, I didn't know that Paladin theme is defenses and healing in RPGs....wait.... ow.

 

You know that nobody ever nerfed in BG2 Time Stop->Acceleration->Abi Dalzim + Chain Lightning -> watch whole screen die. Or Kensai/Mage late game combo? Well, casue it's fun and shows your power once you are on high levels. 

 

Cause whats the point for getting to that later levels in RPG if you still feel like average enemy foot soldier.

Paladin was probably a top 3 class in PoE1 after some pathches. Boring, but incredibly strong. You could pretty much do a TCS on autopilot with a min/maxed paladin.

 

In POE 2, I don't really have a problem with FoD, I have a problem with full attacks being so effective with dualwield though. Basically it automatically makes dualwield the best option for paladins. I think either full attacks might need some rebalance. But It's far from the most critical issues imo, so it doesn't make the list for now.

 

Speaking of paladin def, even with PoE1 levels of def they were basically untouchable. PoE2 buffed that further for no reason.

 

And BG2 had plently of broken combos, Bioware never was any good balancing their games. Combat was never a strong side for them, but it was for PoE1.