(Spoiler) My absolute biggest gripe with PoE2: Seemingly unfocused narrative

[The Sharmat]

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

A game you can suffer setbacks in, perhaps even lose? A game where the story and gameplay feed each other instead of hamper each other? Oh the horror.

[Ryz009]

 

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

A game you can suffer setbacks in, perhaps even lose? A game where the story and gameplay feed each other instead of hamper each other? Oh the horror.

 

 

Because that's totally my issue with that losing. Not feeling railroaded because I have to rush to do X because of limited resources (which does work in games that revolve around limited resources. MOTB wasn't such a game. Not to mention resting was pretty necessary for my mage making it even more rage inducing) having to rush maps in an rpg wasn't fun.

 

And story/gameplay can be a nice thing and I often appreciate it when its done well, it can also be off-putting,cumbersome and make playing the game itself a chore.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Ryz009

[PhroX]

I wouldn't want a hard time cap with game loss as failure on the main quest, that's getting into unfun territory, but I would like there to be some impact on how things play out if I ignore the main story when it is implying that I should be hurrying. Maybe different post game outcomes, or certain characters dying or something like that. A good example would be Mass Effect 2, with the bit where your crew get abducted - the longer you go without rescuing them, the more that die. It doesn't break your game or anything, but its definitely a bad thing, especially if you're fond of the characters and it makes the game feel more realistic, that your choices do really have consequences, that you can't just wander around ignoring what the story is telling you. Overall, I just really want my decision to not pursue the main quest to be recognised in the game as I find it somewhat immersion breaking that nothing happens despite me spending months sailing aimlessly around.

Edited May 18, 2018 by PhroX

[Ryz009]

I wouldn't want a hard time cap with game loss as failure on the main quest, that's getting into unfun territory, but I would like there to be some impact on how things play out if I ignore the main story when it is implying that I should be hurrying. Maybe different post game outcomes, or certain characters dying or something like that. A good example would be Mass Effect 2, with the bit where your crew get abducted - the longer you go without rescuing them, the more that die. It doesn't break your game or anything, but its definitely a bad thing, especially if you're fond of the characters. Overall, I just really want my decision to not pursue the main quest to be recognised in the game as I find it somewhat immersion breaking for things to only happen when I chose for them to happen.

 

oh yeah stuff like that is cool. And ME2 was overly generous with the time limits and told you when you were approaching one. It was pretty clear the Reaper IFF mission was going to lead to something that was timed so I could plan around it.

[PhroX]

Actually thinking about ME2, it has another thing in relation this aspect of the game/story integration I really liked - for most of the game, when something important is happening that the story is saying is happening now (e.g. collector attacks on colonies), you have to go and deal with it now. And then, as you don't have an immediate lead on what to do next with regards the main plot, you are free to do what you want while your boss does off-screen research into the Collectors. After a certain amount of time (represented by a number of missions - which can be whatever missions you want), another major event happens that you have to deal with immediately. It gives a nice mix of giving the player freedom to make decisions as to what they do, while also making it seem that things in the universe happen without your direct input, and I love that there are significant sections of the game where you don't have a clear direction from the main plot outside of a vague "make your squad better" goal, as it makes sense for you to be doing your own thing during those times. Deadfire's story could really have done with this latter aspect.

Edited May 18, 2018 by PhroX

[daven]

I haven't read much of this topic because I don't want spoilers as I haven't finished yet:

 

Maybe they should have made the beef between the different factions more of the focus a la New Vegas. But i'm not sure how the watcher would have been interested in that, unless we just made a new character. 

[tela2k]

-snip-

 

Playing as the Watcher

 

Feels like the cons of this far outweighs the benefits. First the pros of playing as the Watcher. Obviously you're continuing this characters story, which means plenty of links back to the first game, from companions to side characters you can meet again and continue their story. Far as I can tell that is really the only benefit.. 

 

-big snip-

 

Agree on many points in your post, but just wanted to point out, that from the writers perspective the Watcher had the benefit of already knowing the Big Secret from the first game. If you were someone else, then they'd either have to ignore it or have the new character learn the same thing we already knew as players, which would probably be pretty lame.

[Lexi]

 

Agree on many points in your post, but just wanted to point out, that from the writers perspective the Watcher had the benefit of already knowing the Big Secret from the first game. If you were someone else, then they'd either have to ignore it or have the new character learn the same thing we already knew as players, which would probably be pretty lame.

 

 

I didn't consider that. Good point.

[The Sharmat]

 

-snip-

 

Playing as the Watcher

 

Feels like the cons of this far outweighs the benefits. First the pros of playing as the Watcher. Obviously you're continuing this characters story, which means plenty of links back to the first game, from companions to side characters you can meet again and continue their story. Far as I can tell that is really the only benefit.. 

 

-big snip-

 

Agree on many points in your post, but just wanted to point out, that from the writers perspective the Watcher had the benefit of already knowing the Big Secret from the first game. If you were someone else, then they'd either have to ignore it or have the new character learn the same thing we already knew as players, which would probably be pretty lame.

 

The big secret is pretty irrelevant in this game given how big it would seem to be.

[Aridea]

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

 

To each their own

I did love the Spirit Eater thing, but I always play good so it wasn't difficult to manage, and I finished all the content there was. It's one of my favorite games ever till this day. However, I know if you play evil its nearly impossible to complete because you have to consume everything, or the curse kills you.

I would have preferred the same thing with Watcher in POE1 - you going mad and have to manage it. But alas...

 

But also I am also somewhat masochistic in this regard, I like these kinds of restrictions, they make the game more interesting to me. If my character is suffering through pain, I'd like to suffer too :D Immersion and all that.

I even liked Fallout's water chip (not to say weight of bullets, bottle caps, addiction to drugs, etc.), even though that game was... brutal.

 

 

But they did say it was smaller, so its not like its a lie. The game is about the same size as the first one I think, the main quest is shorter but there is more stuff to do inbetween. POE1 is the reverse if you don't count white march.

 

So what would be your suggestion for the more appropriate narrative in Deadfire? Considering how the game is built...

They didn't say it was this much smaller. They acted like it was only somewhat smaller.

 

Deadfire shouldn't have involved the Watcher or Eothas at all and just been a game about the factions since that seems to be what they wanted to make. Instead both sides of the game just diminish the other.

 

 

I think the first bit is our interpretation/misinterpretation. I have nothing against their statements.

And the second bit I agree with. I don't mind being the Watcher, its nice to continue our character. But I think Eothas was a plot device for the third game tbh.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Aridea

[una322]

I enjoyed poe2 story , but it wasnt as good as poe1 in many ways. The biggest issue i had with deadfire is i kept thinking to myself, do i even need to chase eothas? I mean if  my characer just went off and got drunk in a taven for afew weeks, the only thing that would change is that i wouldnt be able to ask eothas to do x, or y after he destroys the wheel. I mean he was gonna do it anyway, the watcher didnt really need to be there for any of it.  His basic plan was sound anyway , no one else wouldnt of known either way lol.

 

Where as in poe1 the entire story is focus on your connection with the main villain, the story just doesnt work without you, and your character definitely cant go get drunk in a taven during the entire thing lol.

[Wormerine]

 

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

 

I once played a game called ADOM where you slowly got corrupted and started to disintegrate if you didn't progress fast enough. I never finished it xD

Oh my goodness. Love this game. It ate countless hours of my life. Never got close to beating it. This crazy time when you intentionally catch corruption hoping for two “thin and nimble” corruptions so you can enter Quickling’s Tree.... good times.

[Voss]

I enjoyed poe2 story , but it wasnt as good as poe1 in many ways. The biggest issue i had with deadfire is i kept thinking to myself, do i even need to chase eothas? I mean if  my characer just went off and got drunk in a taven for afew weeks, the only thing that would change is that i wouldnt be able to ask eothas to do x, or y after he destroys the wheel. I mean he was gonna do it anyway, the watcher didnt really need to be there for any of it.  His basic plan was sound anyway , no one else wouldnt of known either way lol.

 

Where as in poe1 the entire story is focus on your connection with the main villain, the story just doesnt work without you, and your character definitely cant go get drunk in a taven during the entire thing lol.

 

Actually, you totally can.  PoE1's story happens without you as written. 

Because the story of PoE 1 is the Leaden Key doing the Hollowborn thing.  And they actually succeed. You come to every site too late, they've already done their little dances.  You're always behind Thaos.  He gets down to the bottom of Sun-in-Shadow way before you do (as you've got sidequesting to do, and he just paused to collapse a doorway)  he has enough soul energy from all those soulless kids to do exactly what he intends to do (empower Woedica), and just needs to flip a few more switches on the machine to do it.

 

But to make you feel special, the writing forces him to wait until the player shows up, regardless of whether you got down there in 8 hours or if you took 8 months to tidy up the loose ends. 

 

Thaos won, but bounced on your plot armor at the last minute, trapped in stasis for no good reason.   The Watcher's Awakening is completely irrelevant to what's actually going on in the Dyrwood.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Voss

[Aridea]

 

I enjoyed poe2 story , but it wasnt as good as poe1 in many ways. The biggest issue i had with deadfire is i kept thinking to myself, do i even need to chase eothas? I mean if my characer just went off and got drunk in a taven for afew weeks, the only thing that would change is that i wouldnt be able to ask eothas to do x, or y after he destroys the wheel. I mean he was gonna do it anyway, the watcher didnt really need to be there for any of it. His basic plan was sound anyway , no one else wouldnt of known either way lol.

 

Where as in poe1 the entire story is focus on your connection with the main villain, the story just doesnt work without you, and your character definitely cant go get drunk in a taven during the entire thing lol.

Actually, you totally can. PoE1's story happens without you as written.

Because the story of PoE 1 is the Leaden Key doing the Hollowborn thing. And they actually succeed. You come to every site too late, they've already done their little dances. You're always behind Thaos. He gets down to the bottom of Sun-in-Shadow way before you do (as you've got sidequesting to do, and he just paused to collapse a doorway) he has enough soul energy from all those soulless kids to do exactly what he intends to do (empower Woedica), and just needs to flip a few more switches on the machine to do it.

 

But to make you feel special, the writing forces him to wait until the player shows up, regardless of whether you got down there in 8 hours or if you took 8 months to tidy up the loose ends.

 

Thaos won, but bounced on your plot armor at the last minute, trapped in stasis for no good reason. The Watcher's Awakening is completely irrelevant to what's actually going on in the Dyrwood.

Thats true actually, and makes the point about first game’s urgency pretty moot.

There is an illusion of you rushing after him because the game is leading you by opening area after area. Otherwise its exactly the same thing as in Deadfire. Except the main quest is a bit longer.

[Ryz009]

 

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

 

To each their own

I did love the Spirit Eater thing, but I always play good so it wasn't difficult to manage, and I finished all the content there was. It's one of my favorite games ever till this day. However, I know if you play evil its nearly impossible to complete because you have to consume everything, or the curse kills you.

I would have preferred the same thing with Watcher in POE1 - you going mad and have to manage it. But alas...

 

But also I am also somewhat masochistic in this regard, I like these kinds of restrictions, they make the game more interesting to me. If my character is suffering through pain, I'd like to suffer too :D Immersion and all that.

I even liked Fallout's water chip (not to say weight of bullets, bottle caps, addiction to drugs, etc.), even though that game was... brutal.

 

 

But they did say it was smaller, so its not like its a lie. The game is about the same size as the first one I think, the main quest is shorter but there is more stuff to do inbetween. POE1 is the reverse if you don't count white march.

 

So what would be your suggestion for the more appropriate narrative in Deadfire? Considering how the game is built...

They didn't say it was this much smaller. They acted like it was only somewhat smaller.

 

Deadfire shouldn't have involved the Watcher or Eothas at all and just been a game about the factions since that seems to be what they wanted to make. Instead both sides of the game just diminish the other.

 

 

I think the first bit is our interpretation/misinterpretation. I have nothing against their statements.

And the second bit I agree with. I don't mind being the Watcher, its nice to continue our character. But I think Eothas was a plot device for the third game tbh.

 

 

Yeah I played evil so it was just a hot mess of ruining my RP so the game didn't make me bash my head against a wall.

 

Oh god the water chip. It's not really that bad if you plan it out but still bleh. Like I don't mind the ammo weight because that's easily worked around. It's just full game timer's that make me go "ugh no." Spirit Eater has a special place in my loathing because I was enjoying my evil playthrough until that nonsense hit.

 

 

Actually, you totally can.  PoE1's story happens without you as written. 

Because the story of PoE 1 is the Leaden Key doing the Hollowborn thing.  And they actually succeed. You come to every site too late, they've already done their little dances.  You're always behind Thaos.  He gets down to the bottom of Sun-in-Shadow way before you do (as you've got sidequesting to do, and he just paused to collapse a doorway)  he has enough soul energy from all those soulless kids to do exactly what he intends to do (empower Woedica), and just needs to flip a few more switches on the machine to do it.

 

But to make you feel special, the writing forces him to wait until the player shows up, regardless of whether you got down there in 8 hours or if you took 8 months to tidy up the loose ends. 

 

Thaos won, but bounced on your plot armor at the last minute, trapped in stasis for no good reason.   The Watcher's Awakening is completely irrelevant to what's actually going on in the Dyrwood.

 

 

If you and Thaos had been the siblings/lovers instead of Iovara then it'd could've sense for him to wait. As it is yeah it's just awkward and holding the idiot ball. Of course that'd required Thaos to actually have emotions so maybe that'd also have been a doomed effort.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Ryz009

[Slotharingia]

 

 

Nah I almost didn't finish MOTB because of that spirit eater crap. Last thing I'd want in any other game is that.

 

Or at least have that toggable even if it makes no sense.

I once played a game called ADOM where you slowly got corrupted and started to disintegrate if you didn't progress fast enough. I never finished it xD

 

Oh my goodness. Love this game. It ate countless hours of my life. Never got close to beating it. This crazy time when you intentionally catch corruption hoping for two “thin and nimble” corruptions so you can enter Quickling’s Tree.... good times.

 

Oh wow, never thought I'd stumble across someone else who played those ancient games. Did you play Nethack too?

[The Sharmat]

 

I enjoyed poe2 story , but it wasnt as good as poe1 in many ways. The biggest issue i had with deadfire is i kept thinking to myself, do i even need to chase eothas? I mean if  my characer just went off and got drunk in a taven for afew weeks, the only thing that would change is that i wouldnt be able to ask eothas to do x, or y after he destroys the wheel. I mean he was gonna do it anyway, the watcher didnt really need to be there for any of it.  His basic plan was sound anyway , no one else wouldnt of known either way lol.

 

Where as in poe1 the entire story is focus on your connection with the main villain, the story just doesnt work without you, and your character definitely cant go get drunk in a taven during the entire thing lol.

 

Actually, you totally can.  PoE1's story happens without you as written. 

Because the story of PoE 1 is the Leaden Key doing the Hollowborn thing.  And they actually succeed. You come to every site too late, they've already done their little dances.  You're always behind Thaos.  He gets down to the bottom of Sun-in-Shadow way before you do (as you've got sidequesting to do, and he just paused to collapse a doorway)  he has enough soul energy from all those soulless kids to do exactly what he intends to do (empower Woedica), and just needs to flip a few more switches on the machine to do it.

 

But to make you feel special, the writing forces him to wait until the player shows up, regardless of whether you got down there in 8 hours or if you took 8 months to tidy up the loose ends. 

 

Thaos won, but bounced on your plot armor at the last minute, trapped in stasis for no good reason.   The Watcher's Awakening is completely irrelevant to what's actually going on in the Dyrwood.

 

What if Obsidian were actually bad writers all along?

[arober]

Personally, one of my biggest gripes with humanity is people who thought that either of the games had a good story. 

 

They both had bad stories. The second game is at least fun, witty, and knows when to shut the hel up, though.

[The Sharmat]

First game's story is decent. At least it had a point. Grieving Mother talks way too much though I grant you.

 

I've never found anything terribly funny in either one.

[arober]

First game's story is decent. At least it had a point. Grieving Mother talks way too much though I grant you.

 

I've never found anything terribly funny in either one.

The story, maybe, is decent. The storytelling and the script are abhorrent.

 

And I wouldn't say "funny". The second game has moments of wit, though.

[FecklessFool]

Nothing wrong with the story itself in the first game, but the pacing / presentation made it fall flat on its face.

[sucinum]

I'm also a big fan of just straight up telling the player to wait. Time is needed to make preparations, time is needed for events to unfold. Telling the player they might as well go do other things in the meantime can be perfectly fine.

 

Isn't that exactly what Act 3 of the game does? At the volcano, Eothas basically (not clearly, though) tells you that he will wait for you at the wheel and the quest log explains that preparations are required to cross the endless storm. Up to that point, it felt like a chase - and led me to enter the volcano totally underlevelled (good thing you can avoid most of the fights). Also the preparations you actually need to take to sail alone - buy a sail and hull at one of the first guys you meet in the game - are a bit off compared to pleasing the factions. I miss something like "collecting the pieces of the mythical adra compass". That would have actively motivated you to explore all of Deadfire, much more than the sidequest from the cartographer. The locations even could be randomized to increase replayability. Wow, what fun that could have been!

 

I rather wonder why the sense of urgency was introduced at all, with your soul being at stake, footsteps on the digging site, Eothas raging through Deadfire, etc. The game feels a bit overloaded at the start, you have to grasp new concepts like seafaring and also time is of the essence. For me, it would have been a better game if you decide to go seafaring on your own and Caed Nua gets destroyed later - probably during the same storm that traps you on Beginner Island. This leads you personally to meet Eothas at the volcano and have the "meet at the wheel"-talk. You wouldn't feel rushed all the time then.

[Selky]

This has to be the worst main plot Obsidian has ever written. Follow someone else around the Deadfire and listen to the gods ramble about inane nonsense, wow, much exciting. Anyone who thinks this is better than the first game's plot has to be smoking crack.

[morhilane]

Also the preparations you actually need to take to sail alone - buy a sail and hull at one of the first guys you meet in the game - are a bit off compared to pleasing the factions. I miss something like "collecting the pieces of the mythical adra compass".

 

I believe you need master captain and a few master level crewmen too (not all of them, I had a few at expert) which means hunting ships. 

 

This has to be the worst main plot Obsidian has ever written. Follow someone else around the Deadfire and listen to the gods ramble about inane nonsense, wow, much exciting. Anyone who thinks this is better than the first game's plot has to be smoking crack.

I never did drugs and I find the plot better paced and more interesting then POE1 because it pace revelation along the plot instead of dumping everything in the last 20 minutes. I liked POE1 plot too. As for why I love POE2 story, I love lore and learning new things and I got a lots of stuff to think about now. I don't need a game main plot to be about "me, the chosen one has to save the world ASAP". In fact, I find those stories boring these days.

 

None of what the gods were saying was nonsense, but I can understand that people who don't pay attention to lore, refuse to immerse themselves in a gameworld and actually role-play would be totally lost.

 

Also, thematically both POE1 and POE2 were the same: chase after X to get answers to your question(s).

[Zeitzbach]

This has to be the worst main plot Obsidian has ever written. Follow someone else around the Deadfire and listen to the gods ramble about inane nonsense, wow, much exciting. Anyone who thinks this is better than the first game's plot has to be smoking crack.

 

Of course not everything will be everyone cup of tea. It's a different type of writing. PoE 1 focus more on you learning about your past and dealing with Thaos. PoE 2 is about the world, the faction and how your factions affect all of them in a rather grand scale compared to PoE 1. It's basically Defiance Bay but an entire archipelago instead.