The Watcher as a character after Deadfire

[tela2k]

Now that people have maybe finished the game already, I'd be interested to know how people find the player character in these games after Deadfire.

This might just be about my personal preferences, but this is PoEs biggest problem as a series for me, that the Watcher just kind of feels like any other dude, besides some strange psychic abilities. I can't see why the Watcher is the one to do all the world saving. I feel like they tried to address this in Deadfire, but it felt a bit contrived with the Herald of Berath thing and you alone being the one the Gods use as their agent and Eothas presumably only listening to you (didn't listen to me at least). I can't quite put my finger on it but something with the motivations and pretext for the PC just feel off to me.

Some examples from other games:
BG-trilogy: The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his death he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. (PC) Chaos shall be sown in their footsteps. (Can confirm)
-Basically the whole metastory of the trilogy revolves around your PC.

ME: Is that the kind of person we want protecting the galaxy? That's the only kind of person who can protect the galaxy.
-The whole galaxy is full of incompetent sissies, but fortunately you happen to be the biggest badass in history. Also you are the one who knows the truth and because people refuse to listen, you'll have to save the galaxy on your own. So badassery and information.

DA:O: You are the last of the Wardens in Ferelden and there's a blight.
-You really are the last hope. You don't act and the world is doomed. Pretty simple.

DA:I: World is full of demon portals. You are the only glowing-hand-person who can close said portals.
-Same thing as DA:O.

Skyrim: Super Dragon will destroy the world if a Dragonborn doesn't stop it. You are Dragonborn.
-Same thing as above.

Fallout 1/2: Your people will die if you don't find plot device.
-I mean in the second one you're actually called the Chosen One. Simple but it works.

Now that I think about it I actually found Tyranny's PC to be a lot more believable and interesting too. Would have to play through it again to compare the Fatebinder with the Watcher though to better comment on why.

Out of these I guess the Watcher would fall most under the Shepard-catergory, where you just happen to be more badass than everyone else,
though I don't see what soul reading has to do with that. Information I guess? Is that the reason Berath chose you, cause you know the truth about the gods, is that why Eothas listens to you? And how are they going to go forward to PoE3 with this? Now everyone knows the truth, right?
Also kind of the Fallout impersonal you are some dude and you need to reach the plot device (soul)?

I don't know maybe I just lack the imagination to fill in the gaps or something.



​

[BrokenMask]

Commander Shepard feels almost like mary sue character though: Their presence makes NPCs dumb because otherwise they wouldn't look like they can be only person who can save the galaxy

 

Anyhoo, Pillars of Eternity is actually onle one of examples you gave(besides possibly Tyranny, but that one is debatable) that doesn't use Chosen One plotline. In first game you are just out to save yourself from going mad and its just coincidence that what caused your awakening is related to the overall conspiracy. In Pillars 2 only reason why gods recruit you is because you were proven to be capable when you defeated Thaos and foiled Woedica's plot. Eothas really only listens to you because he crushed your castle(he IS pretty nice guy so he is gonna feel apologetic about that xP) and piece of your soul is stuck inside him.

 

Its actually really similar to Fallout: While in second game you are called chosen one, in first game you are just random guy(and not even first one judging by the corpses in beginning cave) they sent out to fetch water chip and got involved in everything over course of trying to find the darn chip. I think it is the point that Watcher is essentially just a regular person even with their seeing dead people ability, but I could be wrong about that I suppose

Edited May 15, 2018 by BrokenMask

[Aramintai]

POE1 was a mix of personal story that you had to resolve, tangled with bigger plot connected to local region troubles. Nothing epic, sort of like BG1, a low level pnp campaign.

In POE2 Watchers are apparently the only people who can talk to the gods. If you refuse Berath she just tells you she'll find another Watcher to talk to Eothas. So you're chosen to be sort of a mediator between the gods. More epic, but nothing is resolved by you personally.

 

While I like these types of more realistically toned down stories more than ridiculous epics of "The Chosen One" with superpowers, POE2's main plot sure is disappointing.

[BrokenMask]

Eh, I did actually like the main plot, but that might just have been because of Eothas related set piece moments(how the heck Big Green Thing turning his head is so cool looking) and because I enjoyed debates with gods and Eothas.

[Sceptenar]

Oh please no, I don't want to be a "chosen one". I can't stand that power fantasy crap. I like how The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind starts out, you are weak, inexperienced and no one thinks highly of you, in fact they insult you and treat you like the n'wah you are. But still you adventure, you persevere, you get better and stronger over time and by the time people start heaping praises on you it isn't actually because you're a reincarnation of an ancient hero, it's because you worked hard and earned your power. It's so much more fulfilling when you earn your power than when it is just given to you because you're a watcher/dragonborn/fated hero whatever.

[E.RedMark]

Oh please no, I don't want to be a "chosen one". I can't stand that power fantasy crap. I like how The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind starts out, you are weak, inexperienced and no one thinks highly of you, in fact they insult you and treat you like the n'wah you are. But still you adventure, you persevere, you get better and stronger over time and by the time people start heaping praises on you it isn't actually because you're a reincarnation of an ancient hero, it's because you worked hard and earned your power. It's so much more fulfilling when you earn your power than when it is just given to you because you're a watcher/dragonborn/fated hero whatever.

but hero...dragon born and such..they are start as weakling and have to work to earn the title . Same thing really..

 

the only difference between a chosen one and a farmer from the wood work is often the path is forced upon a chosen one..while a farmer has 'sad , happy , greedy , vengeance' reasons to take this path . 

[BrokenMask]

Thats another thing with Watcher, they get absolutely no respect from anyone besides their party members :D I mean seriously, all factions just basically consider you a valuable pawn/errand doer, while you might earn their respect, the moment you don't work for them anymore they threat you with hostility.

[Solostran]

Now that people have maybe finished the game already, I'd be interested to know how people find the player character in these games after Deadfire.

 

This might just be about my personal preferences, but this is PoEs biggest problem as a series for me, that the Watcher just kind of feels like any other dude, besides some strange psychic abilities.

 

But that's pretty much true. And that's fine, it's kinda typical "from zero to hero" dark fantasy story. You (Watcher) are "any other dude".

 

Pillars of Eternity starts with you travelling with a caravan to Gilded Vale, because some lord is offering a land for free. You are a Watcher by coincidence - by being in bad place at bad time. In "reality" if Watcher would sleep in ruins for couple of hours, there would be no story at all. Watcher wouldn't even meet Thaos. But it's not the case, and once you learn that soon you'll be completely mad and probably dead (one way or another), there's little you can do except chase Thaos to uncover his plans and solve mystery of your past. And by mix of skill, determination and pure luck you are able to destroy Thaos and Leaden Key plans. And these were people keeping entire world in the dark for several centuries. Good job But in the beginning there's nothing special about you.

 

As for the PoE 2 - you already proved yourself and you are a Hero. You worked for gods before. You stopped Thaos. You dealt with politicians and different factions in Defiance Bay. You opened the gates of Durgan's Battery. There's a big chance you killed couple of dragons and two arch-mages. Yup, you're probably the best candidate to help gods once again. But that's not your motivation to do anything - if anything, your motivation is that Eothas took part of your soul with him and you probably want to take it back. It should be personal for you. Or not - in that case Berath is happy to reincarnate you as a hamster. That's a good life, too.

[morhilane]

Why do people keep thinking that POE1/POE2 were meant to be power fantasies ego-massaging save the world stories? Or that they should be?

 

They are meant to be on scale of a pnp campaign modules which are a mix of personal stuff and local troubles that has a random person end up seeing dead people that you can role-play almost how ever you want.

 

Sure, in Deadfire, you are the Herald of Berath. The title might looks grand, but heralds were just messengers for rulers in the past during wartime and less or more the ancestors of diplomates...

[Sceptenar]

but hero...dragon born and such..they are start as weakling and have to work to earn the title . Same thing really..

 

the only difference between a chosen one and a farmer from the wood work is often the path is forced upon a chosen one..while a farmer has 'sad , happy , greedy , vengeance' reasons to take this path . 

 

 

Sure... a weakling that just happens to have the soul of a dragon and the inborn ability to absorb the souls of dragons and use it to unlock "shout" powers and by virtue of this is claimed to be the most special of snowflakes by every major power figure in the country, be it the lords of cities, the wise men on the mountain or the rebel leaders (let the dragonborn kill me, it makes for a better story), and all of this, every bit of it, right from level 1. And what do you have to do to earn this? Stand by and watch as someone else kills a dragon and just happen to be nearby at time so you can absorb the soul of it. Give me a break, the dragonborn is one of the most blatant chosen ones in gaming.

[E.RedMark]

 

but hero...dragon born and such..they are start as weakling and have to work to earn the title . Same thing really..

 

the only difference between a chosen one and a farmer from the wood work is often the path is forced upon a chosen one..while a farmer has 'sad , happy , greedy , vengeance' reasons to take this path . 

 

 

Sure... a weakling that just happens to have the soul of a dragon and the inborn ability to absorb the souls of dragons and use it to unlock "shout" powers and by virtue of this is claimed to be the most special of snowflakes by every major power figure in the country, be it the lords of cities, the wise men on the mountain or the rebel leaders (let the dragonborn kill me, it makes for a better story), and all of this, every bit of it, right from level 1. And what do you have to do to earn this? Stand by and watch as someone else kills a dragon and just happen to be nearby at time so you can absorb the soul of it. Give me a break, the dragonborn is one of the most blatant chosen ones in gaming.

 

hey you brough the dragon born up , not me lol I hate skylame! 

[tela2k]

Oh please no, I don't want to be a "chosen one". I can't stand that power fantasy crap. I like how The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind starts out, you are weak, inexperienced and no one thinks highly of you, in fact they insult you and treat you like the n'wah you are. But still you adventure, you persevere, you get better and stronger over time and by the time people start heaping praises on you it isn't actually because you're a reincarnation of an ancient hero, it's because you worked hard and earned your power. It's so much more fulfilling when you earn your power than when it is just given to you because you're a watcher/dragonborn/fated hero whatever.

 

It's such a long time ago that I played Morrowind, but I remember that you were supposed to be the Nerevarine, a prophecised saviour type of some sort in that one too, right? I might be talking out of my ass here, because I mostly remember being able to jump across the island and randomly murdering Vivec and other ridiculous stuff like that about Morrowind, but I'm not sure being Nerevarine is that far away from being the Dragonborn. In both you start as a prisoner and then proceed to find out you have a special destiny to fulfill.

 

Also I don't mean you need to have a Chosen One destiny kind of motivation for the PC, I'm just saying that even if it isn't very inspired, it always at least does it's job and gives the player character some meat and usually explains why they can do all this stuff instead of someone else doing it. I'm totally fine with the Courier from New Vegas, where you're just trying to find out why someone you've never met would shoot you in the face and then get mixed up in all the local politics and slowly gain respect among the different facions for good or bad.

 

I guess it's more that I just find it really hard to put myself into the Watchers shoes, implant any kind of personality on the PC and care about the creeping insanity in the first game or the lost soul in the second game. Same kind of feelings I honestly had about the Fallout 4 protagonist. I couldn't care less about the lost baby (don't know if that's a flaw in the writing or if it makes me a bad person) or about the main character in general. Maybe they could've done more about it by placing more emphasis on your insanity in the first game and actually showing the soul sucking in Deadfire? I don't know if that would solve the lack of personality though, I just feel like the Watcher is just an empty husk, while everyone else in the game world is an actual person.

 

Not a solution to anything, but something I just want to say:

Why I mentioned the BG trilogy is I love the way how your Bhaal blood explains everything going to hell all the time. I'm not sure it's so much a Chosen One story, since it's more like a curse on you. No matter how hard you try, especially if you're playing a goodie-two-shoes kind of character, you can't escape the fact that because of your blood your life will be an endless series of disasters until the prophecy is fulfilled in one way or another. Everywhere you go people die, deal with it. Also Irenicus goading you in your dreams all the time gives you quite a many chances to show the alignment of your character, whether you'll embrace your blood or fight it. The Watcher's insanity just kind of is there and doesn't actually do anything. The Watcher's soul missing also doesn't really feel like such a big deal even though I guess it should.

 

So maybe it just comes down to me not finding the Watcher as a concept very interesting. Like I said there are a lot of things I love about these games, but the main character just seems to be missing something.

 

Edit: typos

Edited May 15, 2018 by tela2k

[Sceptenar]

Yes, you are "The Nerevarine" in Morrowind, but unlike Skyrim it isn't a title you're saddled with within the first hour of playing. It's something you have to work for, first spending some time doing silly little research missions for Caius Cosades and then working to fullfil the criteria for being recognized as the Nerevarine. You don't even get any special powers for being the Nerevarine, it's more a title than anything else. There's an implication that anyone who fulfills the criteria could be the Nerevarine, it isn't something you're actually destined to become. Indeed at a point in the quest you end up encountering the ghosts of numerous others who tried to become the Nerevarine before you, but failed their trials at some point. It's just that you're the first one to be strong enough to overcome the challenges. This is why I love Morrowind so much, what you get you have to earn, you start out having trouble with simple bandits and the wildlife and work your way up to flying around the map and fighting gods, it feels rewarding because it takes effort.

[E.RedMark]

 

 

BG-trilogy: The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his death he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. (PC) Chaos shall be sown in their footsteps. (Can confirm)

-Basically the whole metastory of the trilogy revolves around your PC.

 

ME: Is that the kind of person we want protecting the galaxy? That's the only kind of person who can protect the galaxy.

-The whole galaxy is full of incompetent sissies, but fortunately you happen to be the biggest badass in history. Also you are the one who knows the truth and because people refuse to listen, you'll have to save the galaxy on your own. So badassery and information.

 

DA:O: You are the last of the Wardens in Ferelden and there's a blight.

-You really are the last hope. You don't act and the world is doomed. Pretty simple.

 

DA:I: World is full of demon portals. You are the only glowing-hand-person who can close said portals.

-Same thing as DA:O.

 

Skyrim: Super Dragon will destroy the world if a Dragonborn doesn't stop it. You are Dragonborn.

-Same thing as above.

 

Fallout 1/2: Your people will die if you don't find plot device.

-I mean in the second one you're actually called the Chosen One. Simple but it works.

I for one , LOVE all of these . 

 

I hear peoples saying 'Why can't we play as a nobody ! like Hawke!' . That too is fine . I loved DA2 and my playtrough as a sarcastic crazy blood mage was one of the best I ever played ! 

 

I mean look at the Witcher....it should be up there too no ? 

 

for me , it's how it's written . Like Planescape Torment , a gem ! or Jade Empire ! 

 

So yeah , for me it'sn't 'Oh no , we gonna be a chosen one again ' . But how it's written . Those who are well written you will know it's good..and probably won't complain much about being a chosen one , cose you are swept in the story from the start to the end . 

 

'Shrug* maybe I don't know much . But I know when a story is good . And I also know that nowdays in games in general....for some odd reasons , alot of them are failing when it come how to write a satisfying ending . 

[tela2k]

I for one , LOVE all of these . 

 

I hear peoples saying 'Why can't we play as a nobody ! like Hawke!' . That too is fine . I loved DA2 and my playtrough as a sarcastic crazy blood mage was one of the best I ever played ! 

 

I mean look at the Witcher....it should be up there too no ? 

 

for me , it's how it's written . Like Planescape Torment , a gem ! or Jade Empire ! 

 

So yeah , for me it'sn't 'Oh no , we gonna be a chosen one again ' . But how it's written . Those who are well written you will know it's good..and probably won't complain much about being a chosen one , cose you are swept in the story from the start to the end . 

 

'Shrug* maybe I don't know much . But I know when a story is good . And I also know that nowdays in games in general....for some odd reasons , alot of them are failing when it come how to write a satisfying ending . 

 

 

The list isn't supposed to be exhaustive, just some examples to give an idea of what I'm trying to say.

But, yes, I do love me some Geralt, definitely one of my absolute favourite fictional characters.

 

It might really be just about the writing as you say. Like I wrote above the Watcher just doesn't feel to come alive for me.

Even in games like the Geneforge series, if anyone has played those, I can imagine what my main characters in those games are like,

because the games offer so many possibilities to show their motivations, values and personalities. Something where I actually feel like Jeff failed in his more recent games.

The Watcher plays more like a lens through which you see the world, a tool for experiencing the story and ends up being quite bland as a character.

[E.RedMark]

 

I for one , LOVE all of these . 

 

I hear peoples saying 'Why can't we play as a nobody ! like Hawke!' . That too is fine . I loved DA2 and my playtrough as a sarcastic crazy blood mage was one of the best I ever played ! 

 

I mean look at the Witcher....it should be up there too no ? 

 

for me , it's how it's written . Like Planescape Torment , a gem ! or Jade Empire ! 

 

So yeah , for me it'sn't 'Oh no , we gonna be a chosen one again ' . But how it's written . Those who are well written you will know it's good..and probably won't complain much about being a chosen one , cose you are swept in the story from the start to the end . 

 

'Shrug* maybe I don't know much . But I know when a story is good . And I also know that nowdays in games in general....for some odd reasons , alot of them are failing when it come how to write a satisfying ending . 

 

 

The list isn't supposed to be exhaustive, just some examples to give an idea of what I'm trying to say.

But, yes, I do love me some Geralt, definitely one of my absolute favourite fictional characters.

 

It might really be just about the writing as you say. Like I wrote above the Watcher just doesn't feel to come alive for me.

Even in games like the Geneforge series, if anyone has played those, I can imagine what my main characters in those games are like,

because the games offer so many possibilities to show their motivations, values and personalities. Something where I actually feel like Jeff failed in his more recent games.

The Watcher plays more like a lens through which you see the world, a tool for experiencing the story and ends up being quite bland as a character.

 

I played both Avernum and Geneforge! They are Unique !

 

But those games , have 'little to show ' and 'everything you have to imagine' . Like emotions and such . 

 

It could be the time we live in . I mean , how did old consoles games ever succeed ?  was it the lack of Internet and forum to rant in that helped them ? Pressure from big corp like EA forcing a budget and a date to release a game ahead before it's finished and bug filled ? is it peoples expecting too much too fast ? 

 

I mean , when you play a game and then it has a sequel . The Majoritee of time , peoples will expect the sequel to be BIGGER , BETTER , LONGER , MOAR of everything ! Upgrade that , Nerf that was useless ! Change this ! and so on . But it's really hit and miss . Some peoples gonna like it and think they hit the mark , then you have the others who think..Muh..it was ok..but the 1st game was better . Shame..they didn't listen to my feedback....

 

So what make a game great ? what make a story great ? what make a character great ? 

[Harry Easter]

Hmm, in the first game, the Watcher was someone driven literary by their past. Your soul/old life wouldn't shut up until you found Thaos and killed him (that's why you couldn't just talk it out. Your old live was a self-hating little bugger).

 

In part 2, the Watcher decides to get involved by themselves. Maybe it started with "well, now since I'm here, I can hunt that Eothas, I guess", but like the gameplay we decide why we do this. Maybe to rescue the souls or just to see what happens, but it is our decision (just like it is our decision how much of the Deadfire you want to explore). In my mind we are a bit tired, but still get our ass up to do what's right.

[E.RedMark]

Hmm, in the first game, the Watcher was someone driven literary by their past. Your soul/old life wouldn't shut up until you found Thaos and killed him (that's why you couldn't just talk it out. Your old live was a self-hating little bugger).

 

In part 2, the Watcher decides to get involved by themselves. Maybe it started with "well, now since I'm here, I can hunt that Eothas, I guess", but like the gameplay we decide why we do this. Maybe to rescue the souls or just to see what happens, but it is our decision (just like it is our decision how much of the Deadfire you want to explore). In my mind we are a bit tired, but still get our ass up to do what's right.

Eotha steal our soul..that's really not a choice lol 

[Harry Easter]

 

Hmm, in the first game, the Watcher was someone driven literary by their past. Your soul/old life wouldn't shut up until you found Thaos and killed him (that's why you couldn't just talk it out. Your old live was a self-hating little bugger).

 

In part 2, the Watcher decides to get involved by themselves. Maybe it started with "well, now since I'm here, I can hunt that Eothas, I guess", but like the gameplay we decide why we do this. Maybe to rescue the souls or just to see what happens, but it is our decision (just like it is our decision how much of the Deadfire you want to explore). In my mind we are a bit tired, but still get our ass up to do what's right.

Eotha steal our soul..that's really not a choice lol 

 

 

You still can say "screw it" to Berath and leave it at that. There seems to be enough of your soul left for a new life, so you can just run away. There just won't be a game :D.

[morhilane]

 

 

Hmm, in the first game, the Watcher was someone driven literary by their past. Your soul/old life wouldn't shut up until you found Thaos and killed him (that's why you couldn't just talk it out. Your old live was a self-hating little bugger).

 

In part 2, the Watcher decides to get involved by themselves. Maybe it started with "well, now since I'm here, I can hunt that Eothas, I guess", but like the gameplay we decide why we do this. Maybe to rescue the souls or just to see what happens, but it is our decision (just like it is our decision how much of the Deadfire you want to explore). In my mind we are a bit tired, but still get our ass up to do what's right.

Eotha steal our soul..that's really not a choice lol

 

 

You still can say "screw it" to Berath and leave it at that. There seems to be enough of your soul left for a new life, so you can just run away. There just won't be a game :D.

 

I picked that choice the first time I started the game. I really like that it exist, too often in RPG picking similar options result in "you are our only hope" trope and you continue on even if your character don't want too.

 

I also like that most of the time Eothas is brought up in-game you have multi-choices like:

- it's personal

- the gods ask me to do it

- I'm just here for the booty

- screw you

[Sharp]

My favourite ending is when you try and defy Eothas and he just kills you flat out. Its nice having a godly god that just looks at you and you die. It truly puts the title "Watcher" into perspective, you are just there to observe the end and don't really have that much of an impact on it.

[E.RedMark]

My favourite ending is when you try and defy Eothas and he just kills you flat out. Its nice having a godly god that just looks at you and you die. It truly puts the title "Watcher" into perspective, you are just there to observe the end and don't really have that much of an impact on it.

haha I was in shock when he did that! I was like..b-but....I'M YOUR GODDAMN CHOSEN!!!!!!!! I WANT A REFUND AND KISS ANY DONATION AT YOUR CHURCH! *walk away in a huff* 

 

Then..was dissapointed . Was sure that choice would give us a fight and it didn't . 

 

Now..I'm just keeping my distance from him..you never know when he use a kamehameha...

 

and they said he was gentle..yeah right 

[Sharp]

 

My favourite ending is when you try and defy Eothas and he just kills you flat out. Its nice having a godly god that just looks at you and you die. It truly puts the title "Watcher" into perspective, you are just there to observe the end and don't really have that much of an impact on it.

haha I was in shock when he did that! I was like..b-but....I'M YOUR GODDAMN CHOSEN!!!!!!!! I WANT A REFUND AND KISS ANY DONATION AT YOUR CHURCH! *walk away in a huff* 

 

Then..was dissapointed . Was sure that choice would give us a fight and it didn't . 

 

Now..I'm just keeping my distance from him..you never know when he use a kamehameha...

 

and they said he was gentle..yeah right 

 

Rymrgand does the same thing to you in the side quest skipping ahead if you challenge him. The gods in this game don't look nicely upon challengers.

[Icesong]

 

 

Hmm, in the first game, the Watcher was someone driven literary by their past. Your soul/old life wouldn't shut up until you found Thaos and killed him (that's why you couldn't just talk it out. Your old live was a self-hating little bugger).

 

In part 2, the Watcher decides to get involved by themselves. Maybe it started with "well, now since I'm here, I can hunt that Eothas, I guess", but like the gameplay we decide why we do this. Maybe to rescue the souls or just to see what happens, but it is our decision (just like it is our decision how much of the Deadfire you want to explore). In my mind we are a bit tired, but still get our ass up to do what's right.

Eotha steal our soul..that's really not a choice lol 

 

 

You still can say "screw it" to Berath and leave it at that. There seems to be enough of your soul left for a new life, so you can just run away. There just won't be a game :D.

 

 

Berath's chime prevents running away from being an option. You hound Eothas or you die. You might want to hound him for reasons beyond Berath's will, but there's no choice in the matter. Unless you consider death a choice, in which case going insane from being Awakened in Pillars 1 must sound alluring too.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Icesong

[BrokenMask]

To be fair when you tell Eothas to "I WANNA FIGHT YOU" he is like "Umm, are you sure? I mean, you can't win and it'd be really anti climactic ending. But sure, if you want to do so you can join the souls inside him" and if you dont' back down you get instantly vaporized :D