Is there any point to dual-wielding Melee/Ranged? (Sword/Gun)

[aweigh0101]

Seems like there are only downsides:

- You lose One-Handed benefit of ACC.
- You lose Two-Weapon benefit of Speed/DPS.
- You lose Two-Handed benefit of DMG.

- You gain convenience of not having to manually switch Weapon Set.

So if I understand everything correctly the ONLY benefit to dual-wielding melee/ranged is you save yourself 1 mouse click? (Or one key press)

Edited May 12, 2018 by aweigh0101

[dunehunter]

Because it’s stylish.

[nstgc]

Because it’s stylish.

I think this matters more than anything, but functionally, you don't need to deal with the recovery time from swapping weapons.

[KaiG]

You still get the speed bonus.

[Logos]

I know we like to treat it as an optimization problem on this forum, but at its core deadfire is a role-playing game. 

[nstgc]

You still get the speed bonus.

Nice! Didn't know that, but glad I do now. As mentioned before, its nice being able to quickly switch between ranged and melee in certain builds, and this would allow for that while also allowing for a nice juicy bonus.

[aweigh0101]

LARPing ins't role-playing. Role-playing occurs when the attributes and skills of a character allow the player to make different decisions regarding strategy or tactics or game state.

You can choose to intentionally gimp your character because you're "role-playing" as a cripple, (no offense to cripples), but it doesn't mean you're role-playing, it means you're LARPing.

Otherwise every game would be an RPG.  

[mrscojangles]

You still get the speed bonus.

 

This right here. There is actually a shield that counts as a melee weapon as well, so you can ranged mainhand and shield offhand and you get the dual wield speed bonus while still getting a little defense. And can bash people with it in melee range.

[aweigh0101]

So if I take Two-Weapon Style I'll get that benefit on attacks I make while dual-wielding melee/ranged? On both the melee AND the ranged, or only on melee or only ranged?

Has anyone tested if the buff from that unique gun (each successful Ranged attack generates a Speed Buff on your melee attack) stacks with the TW-Style speed buff?

Edited May 12, 2018 by aweigh0101

[mrscojangles]

You get a 30% benefit for dual wielding regardless of if you have the talent. Then the talent adds another 15% on top.

[Sotnik]

1) You will still have +30 to recovery/reload speed. Therefore, you can equip one best melee weapon and one best ranged weapon and use them faster.
2) You can get one free round as you don't have a recovery time with a pistol and a blunderbuss.
3) You can use a round to finish distant enemies.
4) If you use a push attack, you can reload and shoot while the target is away instead of spending time on running to your target.

[aweigh0101]

Interesting. Essentially the biggest benefit is:

- You attack faster than with One-Handed or Two-Handed (Same benefit as Two-Weapon)
- However the DPS is -50% to Two-Weapon
- No Recovery/Attack penalty on your next attack, be it your Melee weapon or your Ranged. (Switches between both dynamically depending on enemy range).

Still, considering all you need to do is press 1 keyboard key to switch Sets, the loss of either ACC or DPS from the Styles is considerable.

 

[giofighter99]

LARPing ins't role-playing. Role-playing occurs when the attributes and skills of a character allow the player to make different decisions regarding strategy or tactics or game state.

 

You can choose to intentionally gimp your character because you're "role-playing" as a cripple, (no offense to cripples), but it doesn't mean you're role-playing, it means you're LARPing.

 

Otherwise every game would be an RPG.  

 

 

You're actually wrong here.  Roleplaying a gimp is a thing... in pen/paper and video games.  You can make any game a roleplaying game.... Heck those sports management games are roleplaying games... playing spiderman on the PS4 could be considered roleplaying if you wanted to.

 

So yeah you're fundamentally wrong and need to go back to gaming school.

[Yosharian]

Having your gun/sword in separate item sets is vastly superior, and is basically the same meme.  You get bonus accuracy, and you can benefit from the One-Handed Style talent, which I've heard is extremely good.

[Sotnik]

- However the DPS is -50% to Two-Weapon

Why?

Edited May 12, 2018 by Sotnik

[cycloverid]

Two Weapon Style appears to work - for two guns or gun/melee. Also there's a unique gun that has a bonus with melee weapons.

[nstgc]

Having your gun/sword in separate item sets is vastly superior, and is basically the same meme.  You get bonus accuracy, and you can benefit from the One-Handed Style talent, which I've heard is extremely good.

Don't you need to switch weapon sets, which requires a recovery period?

[Ganrich]

 

- However the DPS is -50% to Two-Weapon

Why?

Because at range you're still only going to fire the gun/wand in one hand, and in melee you will only swing the weapon you have in the other.

 

Dual wielding two ranged means you'll be firing two weapons at range, swinging two weapons in melee, and every active ability that says they are a Full Attack means that you attack with both weapons during the active ability. Examples: Flames of Devotion and most rogue abilities are Full Attack. If it says Primary attack then it is only your main weapon that does the damage. So, a guy holding two pistols using an ability that does Primary attack will only apply the ability with his main hand pistol. Backstab works like this, and it is why two handed weapons work better for it. Although, one handed style isnt bad either.

 

So, a pistol and a sword dual wield means you fire a little faster, but all those Full Attack abilities will work like Primary Attack abilities using the range weapon at range and the melew in melee.

 

One handed you gain about 12 accuracy plus if you take the One Handed talent convert like 20% of hits to crits. I cant remember if it's 20% off the top of my head. So, you fire slower, but you will hit a lot, and get a possibility for crit conversion. If you crit you will get over penetration, and do much more damage.

 

So, damage wise dual Wielding 2 melee, or 2 ranges comes out in the lead. I would say one handed style is next in line, but two handed is close. The critting from one handed and the damage it can do makes it for me, and the attack speed of two handed makes me sad. Then last comes dual Wielding a mix of ranged and melee. It attacks faster than one handed, but not enough to overcome the accuracy bonus of one handed or the damage of two handed. It also has a benefit of not sitting through weapon swap recovery, but that still isnt enough for me.

[nstgc]

 

 

- However the DPS is -50% to Two-Weapon

Why?

Because at range you're still only going to fire the gun/wand in one hand, and in melee you will only swing the weapon you have in the other.

 

Dual wielding two ranged means you'll be firing two weapons at range, swinging two weapons in melee, and every active ability that says they are a Full Attack means that you attack with both weapons during the active ability. Examples: Flames of Devotion and most rogue abilities are Full Attack. If it says Primary attack then it is only your main weapon that does the damage. So, a guy holding two pistols using an ability that does Primary attack will only apply the ability with his main hand pistol. Backstab works like this, and it is why two handed weapons work better for it. Although, one handed style isnt bad either.

 

So, a pistol and a sword dual wield means you fire a little faster, but all those Full Attack abilities will work like Primary Attack abilities using the range weapon at range and the melew in melee.

 

One handed you gain about 12 accuracy plus if you take the One Handed talent convert like 20% of hits to crits. I cant remember if it's 20% off the top of my head. So, you fire slower, but you will hit a lot, and get a possibility for crit conversion. If you crit you will get over penetration, and do much more damage.

 

So, damage wise dual Wielding 2 melee, or 2 ranges comes out in the lead. I would say one handed style is next in line, but two handed is close. The critting from one handed and the damage it can do makes it for me, and the attack speed of two handed makes me sad. Then last comes dual Wielding a mix of ranged and melee. It attacks faster than one handed, but not enough to overcome the accuracy bonus of one handed or the damage of two handed. It also has a benefit of not sitting through weapon swap recovery, but that still isnt enough for me.

 

This is an excellent point, but a bit moot for casters (namely Ciphers I figure). They lack full attack abilities, so the huge gulf you describe doesn't apply.

[GuyNice]

If you don't have Full Attack abilities then ranged+1hand combo is totally viable and competitive. I use it on Serafen (full Cipher) and it works really well since I like him to stay at a bit of range since he's squishy (at least until he casts borrowed instinct for +20 defenses), but when enemies close the distance a fast melee attack is superior. Plus it looks cool as hell and fits his character.

[Ganrich]

Sure, it doesnt apply to every class. I'm speaking in generalities for sure. However, a cipher will build focus faster firing two ranged weapons or swinging two melee weapons. Simultaneously, you're still going to crit more with one handed weapons, and two handed weapons will do more damage. Since soul whip is +20% weapon damage any of these three will likely outpace a gun in one hand and a sword in the other. Focus generation would also increase because your damage increased, and even with draining whip it would go up. If I'm not mistaken. I could be as I havent put too much time into ciphers in deadfire. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong though.

[Myrtillo]

So if I take Two-Weapon Style I'll get that benefit on attacks I make while dual-wielding melee/ranged? On both the melee AND the ranged, or only on melee or only ranged?

 

Has anyone tested if the buff from that unique gun (each successful Ranged attack generates a Speed Buff on your melee attack) stacks with the TW-Style speed buff?

 

It does stack, so as mentionned before it is totally viable on a class that does not have full attacks. If you can take the acc penalty from the pistol modal, you can get very high -% recovery in no time

My only regret is that full attacks in melee range do not trigger the melee+the gun. That would have been the coolest thing ever.

[aweigh0101]

One way to band-aid this would be to have both weapons attack together when in melee range, exactly as if you were dual-wielding. Dual-guns would still be better at range, but at least close-up the numbers would still be viable.

As things stand right now if you want truly optimized performance out of your characters then you should not dual-wield melee + ranged.

[nstgc]

Sure, it doesnt apply to every class. I'm speaking in generalities for sure. However, a cipher will build focus faster firing two ranged weapons or swinging two melee weapons. Simultaneously, you're still going to crit more with one handed weapons, and two handed weapons will do more damage. Since soul whip is +20% weapon damage any of these three will likely outpace a gun in one hand and a sword in the other. Focus generation would also increase because your damage increased, and even with draining whip it would go up. If I'm not mistaken. I could be as I havent put too much time into ciphers in deadfire. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong though.

Oh, sure, I wasn't arguing that is still isn't better to pick one or the other so long as you know you won't be moving in and out of melee; rather I was saying that the VAST disadvantage you pointed to involving full attack abilities doesn't apply.

 

One way to band-aid this would be to have both weapons attack together when in melee range, exactly as if you were dual-wielding. Dual-guns would still be better at range, but at least close-up the numbers would still be viable.

 

As things stand right now if you want truly optimized performance out of your characters then you should not dual-wield melee + ranged.

Not quite since some ranged weapons bring with them a deflection penalty.

[Ganrich]

I would add talent for using one ranged and one melee.  I don't have a clue what that talent would be, but I would try to make it unique.  It would fit in the same power level as the others.  Maybe something like a temporary buff that gives half the benefits of One handed's accuracy and hit/crit conversion for your main hand, and attack speed with your off hand, but it's temporary forcing the player to move in and out of melee.  So, the main hand gets some accuracy for a bit, and then the buff turns to the attack speed buff.  It would work for a lot of Pirate-y classes like Rogue, Ranger, and the like because they get movement abilities.  It would also add some build diversity because you could use the melee in off-hand and ranged in the main hand. 

 

Example:  Your Ranger is a 1 Saber in main hand/blunderbust in the off hand.  You move into melee with your AC, get a few licks in, Evasive shot out when the temporary buff fades for your main hand, and the off hand buff kicks in.  At low levels it will make Rogues have a neat mechanic, and by mid-level Barbs/Rangers/etc can get their movement abilities and join in.  Monks a little later. 

Obviously this would probably be pretty powerful or weak just halving the numbers, but it would be a starting point.  The style needs its own strengths and weaknesses.