[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[FecklessFool]

I see people talking about things being retconned but I don't see anyone talking about the idea of an unreliable narrator.

 

What if what the gods claim will happen when the wheel is destroyed isn't true? What if they don't know? Information is only ever given to the player by people in-game so the information may be wrong. Perhaps the Engwithans misinterpreted what was happening with souls. Maybe they created the wheel to fix the "problem" and in doing so disrupted the natural process.

 

An unreliable narrator works in a  book or a movie because the unreliability is made known in the same movie or book and it helps you think, and it makes itself known early on as it affects the plot.

 

If it were applied to a game then the unreliability should factor into the over all plot in that one game. Don't make it pop up in a sequel. Make the players question the narrator early on so they know that the game has one, but this is not what they did with POE. 

 

You're only thinking it's an unreliable narrator due to the 2nd game, and that's just terrible on the writer's part.

 

What they did with POE was to establish the world, establish the lore. Having an unreliable narrator in a game like that would ruin the integrity of the things they established. That means there was no point in the big twist, maybe that was also a lie. A double bluff to protect the true and still secret nature of the gods as being actual gods that the Engwithians discovered and they made a deal where they would take them to Paradise if they gave Eora to the gods.

[Icesong]

I actually think people in this thread have forgotten an old information about souls. In the guidebook vol1, it mention that a soul age and fracture over long period of time: "Souls can split apart or merge together during their long absence". That's where the concept of strong soul come from, it's a well preserved soul that isn't fractured.

 

Also, rereading the guidebook vol1 section on souls, it straight up says that gods manipulate souls and send them back to the living world through Berath's Wheel. It also says that Rymrgand wants the resurrection cycle dismantled -  -.

 

Just so no one has any confusion, when I was saying "strong souls" in my post I was contrasting it to souls so weak that they've degraded beyond the point of viability. The "strong souls" that the guidebook and Caldara de Berranzi talk about are souls that haven't fragmented over time, but they're not immune to it.

 

And, yeah, I think that's part of the regulation:

 

After the soul’s temporary respite Beyond, their caretaking god delivers a set of instructions. The soul is tasked with finding a new beginning on Eora and acting on the will of its creator over the span of the next lifetime. The widely accepted notion that everyone carries in him or herself a seed of divine command is the pillar supporting organized religion. A balance struck between free will and the world-steering intentions of the gods offers hope that Eora is progressing toward an ultimate goal, even if the details are unknowable in their design.

 

Those "instructions" are one of the ways the gods attempt to strengthen souls. The way I see it. As I think Eothas said(don't have a nearby save to check the exact wording) at the Ashen Maw, they don't know what makes a soul strong. Which is why there's so many gods with differing agendas: they agreed on what to do(become gods and establish control), but not how to go about it from there, so they're seeing what works.

 

The godlike are probably another way they're attempting to strengthen souls.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Icesong

[sutr]

 

I actually think people in this thread have forgotten an old information about souls. In the guidebook vol1, it mention that a soul age and fracture over long period of time: "Souls can split apart or merge together during their long absence". That's where the concept of strong soul come from, it's a well preserved soul that isn't fractured.

 

Also, rereading the guidebook vol1 section on souls, it straight up says that gods manipulate souls and send them back to the living world through Berath's Wheel. It also says that Rymrgand wants the resurrection cycle dismantled -  -.

 

Just so no one has any confusion, when I was saying "strong souls" in my post I was contrasting it to souls so weak that they've degraded beyond the point of viability. The "strong souls" that the guidebook and Caldara de Berranzi talk about are souls that haven't fragmented over time, but they're not immune to it.

 

And, yeah, I think that's part of the regulation:

 

After the soul’s temporary respite Beyond, their caretaking god delivers a set of instructions. The soul is tasked with finding a new beginning on Eora and acting on the will of its creator over the span of the next lifetime. The widely accepted notion that everyone carries in him or herself a seed of divine command is the pillar supporting organized religion. A balance struck between free will and the world-steering intentions of the gods offers hope that Eora is progressing toward an ultimate goal, even if the details are unknowable in their design.

 

Those "instructions" are one of the ways the gods attempt to strengthen souls. The way I see it. As I think Eothas said(don't have a nearby save to check the exact wording) at the Ashen Maw, they don't know what makes a soul strong. Which is why there's so many gods with differing agendas: they agreed on what to do(become gods and establish control), but not how to go about it from there, so they're seeing what works.

 

The godlike are probably another way they're attempting to strengthen souls.

 

 

Then how did those strong souls originally reproduce?

[DozingDragon]

A couple of observations:

 

1. The Engwithans were apparently inspired by Superman 3 when they designed how the gods would replenish their power.

 

2. There is some support for “The Wheel” being a kith-created concept in Pillars of Eternity. The souls in the Endless Paths refer to the individuals Od Nua worked with as “the Children of the Wheel.”

[Icesong]

 

Then how did those strong souls originally reproduce?

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think my answer is: the same way. I'm only suggesting that the gods are creating more of them than there used to be, or at the least that's their goal. They observed a decline in the strength of souls over time, recognized it as an inevitable crisis and went about trying to solve it. Strong souls are associated with strong character:

 

Spiritual fracturing doesn’t contribute to a person’s negative disposition, but is believed to have a subtler effect on their life’s vibrancy and potential. Heroes, brilliant scholars, and charismatic leaders are generally considered to have old souls that are well preserved.

 

It's my supposition that the Engwithans attributed the decay of souls to the decay of kith civilization. Immoral people, people weak of character, were creating weaker and weaker souls. Religion was identified as the problem and the solution, and we all know the rest. 

 

And just a reminder of why I brought this up, in case that's been lost: it reconciles everything we know about the Wheel and reincarnation without it being a retcon, and without the gods lying or being wrong.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Icesong

[Aramintai]

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the game that trials/experience is what makes a soul stronger. But whatever, I don't even know what to trust in this game 

[morhilane]

Then how did those strong souls originally reproduce?

 

I don't think reproduce is the right term, strengthen is more adequate. Also, how it happens probably didn't change, the gods are just forcing the process to happen/or and trying to manipulate the outcomes. Like supped up animancers/Watchers.

 

 

I just realized that the gods are just artificially super strengthened souls. I suspect we are going to learn that they were created by fusing weaker souls to  Engwithans Watcher in POE3. Which means that they were not programmed like I initially though. Also, the term Berath's Wheel  would actually be because the Engwithan Berath created it before being turned into a god or right after...

 

I even suspect there is some failed attempts, you find a venerated crocodile statue in the Engwithans Poko ruins that match no known gods for example.

[Casper]

i just wonder what happens to iovara after all this plays out? 

[morhilane]

i just wonder what happens to iovara after all this plays out? 

 

She hangs out at the Court of Penitent with all her new friends that comes over time...

 

 

edit:

I just played through the ending (instead of watching/hearing others) and there are 11 alcoves with giant bodies and 3 are empty. There are 11 gods and Abydon's body is in the White March and his destruction is what caused the other gods to leave their bodies behind. That pretty much means 2 of the other 10 still have physical bodies. One is probably Rymrgand because the lore says he hangs out in the White That Wends and move around causing destruction.

 

Who is the other one?

Edited May 19, 2018 by morhilane

[Icesong]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

 

I have to take responsibility for the lack of clarity on this.  It was not my intention to retcon via omission anything that’s already been established in Pillars of Eternity.  Eothas’ conversations started out being pretty large.  In the process of editing them down, I had to make difficult choices about what should go.  There were sequences where Eothas talked about how things worked before the Engwithans and why the destruction of the machine at Ukaizo would have the extreme consequences he describes.  These sequences felt like they disrupted the pacing of the conversations and they didn’t seem strictly necessary.  When we had our team play week, I didn’t receive feedback that the absence of this information was bad/raised questions – but that may be because anyone who thought about it knew the information from our design documents/conversations/presentations/previous versions of Eothas’ dialogues.

 

I think that this information can be explained in-game in the future, but I apologize for any confusion that the omissions have caused.

 

[Ryz009]

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

 

I have to take responsibility for the lack of clarity on this.  It was not my intention to retcon via omission anything that’s already been established in Pillars of Eternity.  Eothas’ conversations started out being pretty large.  In the process of editing them down, I had to make difficult choices about what should go.  There were sequences where Eothas talked about how things worked before the Engwithans and why the destruction of the machine at Ukaizo would have the extreme consequences he describes.  These sequences felt like they disrupted the pacing of the conversations and they didn’t seem strictly necessary.  When we had our team play week, I didn’t receive feedback that the absence of this information was bad/raised questions – but that may be because anyone who thought about it knew the information from our design documents/conversations/presentations/previous versions of Eothas’ dialogues.

 

I think that this information can be explained in-game in the future, but I apologize for any confusion that the omissions have caused.

 

 

Oh thank goodness because that really was a wtf.

[Tarlonniel]

I'm looking forward to those future in-game explanations!

[Aramintai]

 

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

 

I have to take responsibility for the lack of clarity on this.  It was not my intention to retcon via omission anything that’s already been established in Pillars of Eternity.  Eothas’ conversations started out being pretty large.  In the process of editing them down, I had to make difficult choices about what should go.  There were sequences where Eothas talked about how things worked before the Engwithans and why the destruction of the machine at Ukaizo would have the extreme consequences he describes.  These sequences felt like they disrupted the pacing of the conversations and they didn’t seem strictly necessary.  When we had our team play week, I didn’t receive feedback that the absence of this information was bad/raised questions – but that may be because anyone who thought about it knew the information from our design documents/conversations/presentations/previous versions of Eothas’ dialogues.

 

I think that this information can be explained in-game in the future, but I apologize for any confusion that the omissions have caused.

 

 

Oh thank goodness because that really was a wtf.

 

Well, at least he admitted that explanations in the game were half-assed. I hope they'll have a time to revise those sketchy dialogues with the gods or add some extra explanations in DLCs.

[Aramintai]

i just wonder what happens to iovara after all this plays out? 

What about her? Personally, I freed her by disintegrating her soul. But she can stay imprisoned or wander among the ghosts of the Burial Isle as an option.

[Ryz009]

 

 

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

 

I have to take responsibility for the lack of clarity on this.  It was not my intention to retcon via omission anything that’s already been established in Pillars of Eternity.  Eothas’ conversations started out being pretty large.  In the process of editing them down, I had to make difficult choices about what should go.  There were sequences where Eothas talked about how things worked before the Engwithans and why the destruction of the machine at Ukaizo would have the extreme consequences he describes.  These sequences felt like they disrupted the pacing of the conversations and they didn’t seem strictly necessary.  When we had our team play week, I didn’t receive feedback that the absence of this information was bad/raised questions – but that may be because anyone who thought about it knew the information from our design documents/conversations/presentations/previous versions of Eothas’ dialogues.

 

I think that this information can be explained in-game in the future, but I apologize for any confusion that the omissions have caused.

 

 

Oh thank goodness because that really was a wtf.

 

Well, at least he admitted that explanations in the game were half-assed. I hope they'll have a time to revise those sketchy dialogues with the gods or add some extra explanations in DLCs.

 

 

Also this only proves my point in having an outside party beta test. That's a perfect example of something no one except someone not working on the game would've caught.

[sutr]

 

 

Then how did those strong souls originally reproduce?

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think my answer is: the same way. I'm only suggesting that the gods are creating more of them than there used to be, or at the least that's their goal. They observed a decline in the strength of souls over time, recognized it as an inevitable crisis and went about trying to solve it. Strong souls are associated with strong character:

 

Spiritual fracturing doesn’t contribute to a person’s negative disposition, but is believed to have a subtler effect on their life’s vibrancy and potential. Heroes, brilliant scholars, and charismatic leaders are generally considered to have old souls that are well preserved.

 

It's my supposition that the Engwithans attributed the decay of souls to the decay of kith civilization. Immoral people, people weak of character, were creating weaker and weaker souls. Religion was identified as the problem and the solution, and we all know the rest. 

 

And just a reminder of why I brought this up, in case that's been lost: it reconciles everything we know about the Wheel and reincarnation without it being a retcon, and without the gods lying or being wrong.

 

What I'm asking is how the original kith with those strong souls reproduced? Your answer presupposes that death proceeded reproduction;  one of the beings with those strong souls must have died in order to allow its soul to be fractured before any of the other beings could have engaged in biological reproduction. 

[West]

My INT is far too low for this

[Shadout]

 

 

Also this only proves my point in having an outside party beta test. That's a perfect example of something no one except someone not working on the game would've caught.

 

Yeah.

Good to know they at least have some thoughts about how it all fits together. It was the one thing that really annoyed me about the coherency of the story.

[Casper]

 

i just wonder what happens to iovara after all this plays out? 

What about her? Personally, I freed her by disintegrating her soul. But she can stay imprisoned or wander among the ghosts of the Burial Isle as an option.

 

wait, that was an option? i don't recall that, then again i guess i am do for another playthrough so guess it's as good a time to brush up. 

[FecklessFool]

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

 

I have to take responsibility for the lack of clarity on this.  It was not my intention to retcon via omission anything that’s already been established in Pillars of Eternity.  Eothas’ conversations started out being pretty large.  In the process of editing them down, I had to make difficult choices about what should go.  There were sequences where Eothas talked about how things worked before the Engwithans and why the destruction of the machine at Ukaizo would have the extreme consequences he describes.  These sequences felt like they disrupted the pacing of the conversations and they didn’t seem strictly necessary.  When we had our team play week, I didn’t receive feedback that the absence of this information was bad/raised questions – but that may be because anyone who thought about it knew the information from our design documents/conversations/presentations/previous versions of Eothas’ dialogues.

 

I think that this information can be explained in-game in the future, but I apologize for any confusion that the omissions have caused.

Just bring that content back in a patch. I wouldn't mind reading tons of dialog in the main quest. It would help the main quest I think.

[sutr]

Okay after listening to Ydwin intro again I'm convinced that the natural cycle of souls is that without the gods they don't diminish. Rather their memories are used to create new souls. Which actually makes sense because we know that Eros was created by a god, who currently is going to take a break because he was in game development for 19 years. 

[Icesong]

 

 

 

Then how did those strong souls originally reproduce?

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I think my answer is: the same way. I'm only suggesting that the gods are creating more of them than there used to be, or at the least that's their goal. They observed a decline in the strength of souls over time, recognized it as an inevitable crisis and went about trying to solve it. Strong souls are associated with strong character:

 

Spiritual fracturing doesn’t contribute to a person’s negative disposition, but is believed to have a subtler effect on their life’s vibrancy and potential. Heroes, brilliant scholars, and charismatic leaders are generally considered to have old souls that are well preserved.

 

It's my supposition that the Engwithans attributed the decay of souls to the decay of kith civilization. Immoral people, people weak of character, were creating weaker and weaker souls. Religion was identified as the problem and the solution, and we all know the rest. 

 

And just a reminder of why I brought this up, in case that's been lost: it reconciles everything we know about the Wheel and reincarnation without it being a retcon, and without the gods lying or being wrong.

 

What I'm asking is how the original kith with those strong souls reproduced? Your answer presupposes that death proceeded reproduction;  one of the beings with those strong souls must have died in order to allow its soul to be fractured before any of the other beings could have engaged in biological reproduction. 

 

 

Sorry, I'm still not getting it. These are the questions I'm answering:

 

Was there reincarnation before the Wheel?

Were the gods lying, or otherwise wrong, about the consequences of the Wheel's destruction?

How do population levels of kith, wilder and animals continue to increase despite entropy's toll on the soul?

 

I don't see what biological reproduction has to do with any of these questions or any of my answers. It's tangentially related to the third question, but it has no immediate bearing and doesn't need to be addressed to satisfy the original question. And I'm not trying to, so I'm not presupposing anything.

 

It seems like you might be, though. You seem to be imagining a world where, say, there's only two souls in all the cycle, and were those two to mate they'd have a Hollowborn as no third soul exists. Not until one of the two fragments in the cycle. First of all, if you're suggesting this couldn't have been the case, I don't see why not. Why couldn't it be that there existed only one superstrong soul in the beginning that fragmented? Some would even call that god. Regardless, why even imagine such a world? Why presuppose life precedes death? Souls could have originated in the Beyond. It could have taken billions of years before the Beyond was emptied of new souls that had yet to live.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Icesong

[Aramintai]

 It could have taken billions of years before the Beyond was emptied of new souls that had yet to live.

I don't know about the rest of the questions but this one is answered in the game for the current situation (if the gods are to be believed) - kith have few generations at most, then the consequences will start to show.

[Icesong]

 

 It could have taken billions of years before the Beyond was emptied of new souls that had yet to live.

I don't know about the rest of the questions but this one is answered in the game for the current situation (if the gods are to be believed) - kith have few generations at most, then the consequences will start to show.

 

 

A few generations for the Beyond to empty of all souls now, yes, but I'm suggesting that there was a time when the Beyond was brimming with new souls that had yet to enter the cycle; that old souls and new souls used to pass from the Beyond and into Eora. This serves as a potential answer to his question of how populations could have grown without the fragmentation of a living soul dying. He seems to be approaching it from the viewpoint that all souls were just dumped into Eora at once, which would mean there'd be no waiting souls in the Beyond if anything on Eora gave birth.

[morhilane]

 

 

 It could have taken billions of years before the Beyond was emptied of new souls that had yet to live.

I don't know about the rest of the questions but this one is answered in the game for the current situation (if the gods are to be believed) - kith have few generations at most, then the consequences will start to show.

 

 

A few generations for the Beyond to empty of all souls now, yes, but I'm suggesting that there was a time when the Beyond was brimming with new souls that had yet to enter the cycle; that old souls and new souls used to pass from the Beyond and into Eora. This serves as a potential answer to his question of how populations could have grown without the fragmentation of a living soul dying. He seems to be approaching it from the viewpoint that all souls were just dumped into Eora at once, which would mean there'd be no waiting souls in the Beyond if anything on Eora gave birth.

 

 

Things don't die or get born at the same speed...and even plants have souls.

 

Thinking about it, I think there is going to be an increase in blights with the Wheel broken...and probably undeads too.