Chris Avellone: The Final Frontier

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

Asked for a full refund on my Fig pledge, hope it goes through.

Got it

 

Hi ,

 

Thank you for contacting us and I’ll be happy to take care of that for you. It may take a few days to get the refund on the Fig side as I need to have them process it, but I can refund the PayPal DLC purchase right away.

 

Regarding the comments from Chris, we have and still do wish him nothing but the best for him and his family’s future.

 

We sincerely thank you for having backed us.

 

Thank you again,

 

Darren Monahan

CIO and Co-Founder

Obsidian Entertainment

Heh, I like that you cancelled because they are apparently a terrible company and yet they refunded you with no problems in a super polite manner. Nice.

[Orogun01]

 

 

the sudden cancellation of my health insurance

 

WTF? Is Satan managing Obsidian now?

 

There's no guarantee that your former employer has to continue to pay for your health insurance after you depart.  Sometimes it ends on your termination date, sometimes maybe it'll ride out to the end of the month.  That's why we have laws like COBRA that allow you to continue your insurance on your own dime while you search for a new job or insurance plan.

 

If anything, the criticism should be directed towards America's system of employer-sponsored insurance, than a dig at any one company.  It is both standard and terrifying to lose your paycheck and insurance on the same day, but hey, that's the system we've built.

 

Yeah, but using that as a way to get you to sign a deal against your best interest...you would think there would be more consideration for someone that you have worked with for years and has given much to your company. Funny how capitalism reminds a lot of communism, except that power is split between **** instead of consolidated into a big party of ****.

[Hurlshort]

All that healthcare stuff is really more between him and HR rather than management. Given how overly complicated everything has been in the last few years, I'd guess it has less to do with anyone trying to rake him over the coals and more to do with the fact the entire health insurance industry is a huge pain in the rear.

[Katphood]

There's no guarantee that your former employer has to continue to pay for your health insurance after you depart.  Sometimes it ends on your termination date, sometimes maybe it'll ride out to the end of the month.  That's why we have laws like COBRA that allow you to continue your insurance on your own dime while you search for a new job or insurance plan.

 

If anything, the criticism should be directed towards America's system of employer-sponsored insurance, than a dig at any one company.  It is both standard and terrifying to lose your paycheck and insurance on the same day, but hey, that's the system we've built.

I do understand that the sudden cancellation of his insurance can be something common in America(...and pretty much the rest of the world for that matter) but what I don't understand is this:

 

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Like Valmy pointed out, we have to see the issue from Obsidian's perspective as well but still, that sounds extremly hostile to me. Why would they want to revoke his rights to work on any RPG and how is that even possible?!

Edited May 2, 2018 by Katphood

[Vaeliorin]

what I don't understand is this:

 

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Like Valmy pointed out, we have to see the issue from Obsidian's perspective as well but still, that sounds extremly hostile to me. Why would they want to revoke his rights to work on any RPG and how is that even possible?!

 

Non-compete clauses are something pretty commonly attempted by companies.  If you'll recall the creator of Ark got into trouble over this a couple years ago.  Apparently they're not enforcable a lot of places, but it's still a way a company tries to protect itself from getting staff poached by direct competitors.

 

Basically, what it boils down to is all companies, even the ones we want to like, are **** when it comes to self-preservation.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Vaeliorin

[Guest]

All that healthcare stuff is really more between him and HR rather than management. Given how overly complicated everything has been in the last few years, I'd guess it has less to do with anyone trying to rake him over the coals and more to do with the fact the entire health insurance industry is a huge pain in the rear.

Keep in mind that maintaining health insurance for an employee is extremely expensive. Big employers will usually extend it until the end of the month, but most companies just hand you COBRA paperwork and wish you luck.

[Orogun01]

All that healthcare stuff is really more between him and HR rather than management. Given how overly complicated everything has been in the last few years, I'd guess it has less to do with anyone trying to rake him over the coals and more to do with the fact the entire health insurance industry is a huge pain in the rear.

Truly hope makes people a hopeless cause. HR does the company's bidding, but even if you were right it would be disingenuous to ignore the fact that Avellone had a tenuous relationship with Obsidian HR. Or have we forgotten all about the unnamed HR lady that's married to someone in management? It certainly strikes of impropriety considering the circumstances.

[Hurlshort]

As someone who recently had to swap health plans due to a job change, I speak from experience when I tell you it is a gigantic mess. No tenuous relationship required to feel like you are getting the run around.

[Zoraptor]

 

what I don't understand is this:

 

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Like Valmy pointed out, we have to see the issue from Obsidian's perspective as well but still, that sounds extremly hostile to me. Why would they want to revoke his rights to work on any RPG and how is that even possible?!

 

Non-compete clauses are something pretty commonly attempted by companies.  If you'll recall the creator of Ark got into trouble over this a couple years ago.  Apparently they're not enforcable a lot of places, but it's still a way a company tries to protect itself from getting staff poached by direct competitors.

 

 

I doubt it was a genuine 'non compete clause' as implied, I'd suspect that if Chris asked out of his contract then the reply was "fine, but you cannot work on RPGs until its term runs out/ time x" which is far more reasonable since an early release is doing Chris a favour so quid pro quo should be expected. He essentially seems to be asking for such favourable treatment while still expecting to have benefits of employment- like medical insurance- maintained which would be rather on the nose. That's why I'm extraordinarily skeptical of Chris's claims being accurate, they're not internally consistent and read far more like an internal rationalisation.

 

To be fair though, the whole thing is like a river flowing around a submerged boulder- you're judging what and where by the ripples rather than seeing it so it's speculation, and may be unfair speculation. But Chris is making it very easy to assume that he was the problem, especially since Obsidian hasn't been publicly contributing to the river at all.

 

The issue of any ownership stake is a lot more murky, but there isn't even enough information to speculate on that, except what no legal action from Chris implies.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Zoraptor

[Vaeliorin]

 

 

what I don't understand is this:

 

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Like Valmy pointed out, we have to see the issue from Obsidian's perspective as well but still, that sounds extremly hostile to me. Why would they want to revoke his rights to work on any RPG and how is that even possible?!

 

Non-compete clauses are something pretty commonly attempted by companies.  If you'll recall the creator of Ark got into trouble over this a couple years ago.  Apparently they're not enforcable a lot of places, but it's still a way a company tries to protect itself from getting staff poached by direct competitors.

 

 

I doubt it was a genuine 'non compete clause' as implied, I'd suspect that if Chris asked out of his contract then the reply was "fine, but you cannot work on RPGs until its term runs out/ time x" which is far more reasonable since an early release is doing Chris a favour so quid pro quo should be expected. He essentially seems to be asking for such favourable treatment while still expecting to have benefits of employment- like medical insurance- maintained which would be rather on the nose. That's why I'm extraordinarily skeptical of Chris's claims being accurate, they're not internally consistent and read far more like an internal rationalisation.

 

To be fair though, the whole thing is like a river flowing around a submerged boulder- you're judging what and where by the ripples rather than seeing it so it's speculation, and may be unfair speculation. But Chris is making it very easy to assume that he was the problem, especially since Obsidian hasn't been publicly contributing to the river at all.

 

The issue of any ownership stake is a lot more murky, but there isn't even enough information to speculate on that, except what no legal action from Chris implies.

 

I make no assumptions about anything one way or the other, and haven't read the interview or any of the Codex thread.  I was just pointing out to Katphood that non-compete clauses aren't all that unusual, particularly in situations with talented individuals who are likely to join direct competitors.  A lot of the stuff people are saying is "so terrible" seems to be pretty standard parts of the way the business world works.  Yes, it sucks, but it's reality.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

what I don't understand is this:

 

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Like Valmy pointed out, we have to see the issue from Obsidian's perspective as well but still, that sounds extremly hostile to me. Why would they want to revoke his rights to work on any RPG and how is that even possible?!

 

Non-compete clauses are something pretty commonly attempted by companies.  If you'll recall the creator of Ark got into trouble over this a couple years ago.  Apparently they're not enforcable a lot of places, but it's still a way a company tries to protect itself from getting staff poached by direct competitors.

 

 

I doubt it was a genuine 'non compete clause' as implied, I'd suspect that if Chris asked out of his contract then the reply was "fine, but you cannot work on RPGs until its term runs out/ time x" which is far more reasonable since an early release is doing Chris a favour so quid pro quo should be expected. He essentially seems to be asking for such favourable treatment while still expecting to have benefits of employment- like medical insurance- maintained which would be rather on the nose. That's why I'm extraordinarily skeptical of Chris's claims being accurate, they're not internally consistent and read far more like an internal rationalisation.

 

To be fair though, the whole thing is like a river flowing around a submerged boulder- you're judging what and where by the ripples rather than seeing it so it's speculation, and may be unfair speculation. But Chris is making it very easy to assume that he was the problem, especially since Obsidian hasn't been publicly contributing to the river at all.

 

The issue of any ownership stake is a lot more murky, but there isn't even enough information to speculate on that, except what no legal action from Chris implies.

 

I make no assumptions about anything one way or the other, and haven't read the interview or any of the Codex thread.  I was just pointing out to Katphood that non-compete clauses aren't all that unusual, particularly in situations with talented individuals who are likely to join direct competitors.  A lot of the stuff people are saying is "so terrible" seems to be pretty standard parts of the way the business world works.  Yes, it sucks, but it's reality.

 

Saying that its common doesn't not make it right, it is in fact an indictment on the whole system as well on the complacency regarding the status quo.

I'd rather have angry people railing against it than apathetics that have rolled over and accepted it.

[Skazz]

Saying that its common doesn't not make it right, it is in fact an indictment on the whole system as well on the complacency regarding the status quo.

I'd rather have angry people railing against it than apathetics that have rolled over and accepted it.

 

Are you saying that Chris is some sort of a champion of "the angry people" in this equation? Because I don't get that vibe at all. If anything, I'd say that's a very skewed and somewhat dishonest reading of the whole kerfluffle.

[Vaeliorin]

Saying that its common doesn't not make it right, it is in fact an indictment on the whole system as well on the complacency regarding the status quo.

I'd rather have angry people railing against it than apathetics that have rolled over and accepted it.

I'm not saying it's right or that people shouldn't fight against it.  I just don't think that people should be treating Obsidian like they are some sort of monsters when, despite how it's apparently been painted, what they have supposedly done is basically standard practice in a lot of companies.

 

Edit:  To be entirely honest, I don't really care one way or the other about the whole thing, I'm just annoyed how this has painted a pall over things when I'm excited for Deadfire releasing in a week.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Vaeliorin

[Ethics Gradient]

Saying that its common doesn't not make it right, it is in fact an indictment on the whole system as well on the complacency regarding the status quo.

I'd rather have angry people railing against it than apathetics that have rolled over and accepted it.

I'm not saying it's right or that people shouldn't fight against it.  I just don't think that people should be treating Obsidian like they are some sort of monsters when, despite how it's apparently been painted, what they have supposedly done is basically standard practice in a lot of companies.

The way it is described, the whole situation feels more like a "Golden Handcuffs" kind of scenario than anything else.  Recruiting top-tier talent is hard; getting them to stay put for for long enough to be of value to the company is sometimes even harder.  Josh even briefly touched on the subject in his most recent talk at Reboot Develop 2018.

 

For example, a simple incentive would to write the hire contract to include some sort of language like: "I agree to work for the company for 5 years, at which point they will hand me my giant sack of money they've been slowly filling up" and let the employee judge very carefully if they want to bail before the payoff.

 

Should they leave anyway, it seems entirely plausible that a new contract can be made where they would receive a portion (or all) of the incentive in exchange for some other set of terms (like not designing things for anyone else).  There is a fair bit more leeway in enforceability once you accept money for such an offer.

 

Edit: Anyway, yeah.  It's a little depressing to be discussing this on the eve of Deadfire.  But none of the accounts seem to describe actual malice, just a bunch of unfortunate circumstances.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Ethics Gradient

[LadyCrimson]

*reads post/skims thread*

 

...my mind was not blown.

[Orogun01]

 

Saying that its common doesn't not make it right, it is in fact an indictment on the whole system as well on the complacency regarding the status quo.

I'd rather have angry people railing against it than apathetics that have rolled over and accepted it.

I'm not saying it's right or that people shouldn't fight against it.  I just don't think that people should be treating Obsidian like they are some sort of monsters when, despite how it's apparently been painted, what they have supposedly done is basically standard practice in a lot of companies.

 

Edit:  To be entirely honest, I don't really care one way or the other about the whole thing, I'm just annoyed how this has painted a pall over things when I'm excited for Deadfire releasing in a week.

 

From a public perception standpoint the fact that a company in which you put your faith in turns out to be as ****ed as the rest is a big blow. Suffice it  to say that I expected better from Obsidian and this has somewhat tarnished their image in my eyes. As for whether things can be achieved without singling out a company; I lived long enough to know people are not rational but driven by instinct and emotion. The only way that meaningful change can be achieved in this regard is by rabblerousing and I hate mobs.

[DragonWiz]

This is very sad to hear. I do hope that Obsidian will release a statement of sorts, I'd rather they don't go silent on the matter; for it will only add to the fire in the long run. Goodness, I hope that this doesn't affect Deadfire. The people who worked on it, really put a lot of effort into the project. It will suck anus if they get affected by this corporate drama. 

 

Again I'm very sad to hear that Chris had to suffer through this, but I don't want the devs who put a lot of effort into this project; be affected by this drama. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by DragonWiz

[Guest]

The fact of the matter is that bad actors can and do exist on both sides of the employee/employer relationship. Yes, corporations do sometimes exploit their employees. Yes, employees do sometimes rip off their employers. Obsidian is in no way out of line for trying to protect their interests; Chris only has to worry about Chris, however Feargus has over 100 people counting on him to keep them employed (for so long as they decide to remain employed by him). You can ignore that if you'd like but it doesn't change reality. 

 

We can all cross our fingers and hope for the best, but what stopped Chris from taking every pitch he heard (his or not) and taking them to inXile, etc? 

 

Feargus would be negligent not to try to do everything he could to keep that from happening. 

[Lexx]

Obsidian putting out a statement to this would just draw even more attention. Honestly, outside a few nerd boards, nobody really cares.

 

The big tl;dr that I personally take out of this is: Read every contract before you sign it and weight up if it'll be worth it in the long run.

[DragonWiz]

Obsidian putting out a statement to this would just draw even more attention. Honestly, outside a few nerd boards, nobody really cares.

 

The big tl;dr that I personally take out of this is: Read every contract before you sign it and weight up if it'll be worth it in the long run.

 

Man I should stop reading too much into this. I hope you are right, I don't want Deadfire to get shafted cause of corporate drama. It's not fair to the folks who worked on the game. 

[Infinitron]

 

If Avellone hurt PoE's development that much, maybe he really was fired?

 

It can't be overstated. When Chris left Obsidian back in 2015, everybody assumed it was a planned and orderly "resigned to pursue other interests" scenario. Like maybe there was some bad blood involved, but it basically happened entirely out of his volition. Now all of a sudden he's talking about how his health insurance was abruptly cancelled and he was left in the lurch. That would not have happened if he had planned to leave Obsidian!

 

So if Chris Avellone was fired, the question that needs to be asked is - why?

Edited May 2, 2018 by Infinitron

[kirottu]

 

If Avellone hurt PoE's development that much, maybe he really was fired?

 

It can't be overstated. When Chris left Obsidian back in 2015, everybody assumed it was an orderly and planned "resigned to pursue other interests" scenario. Maybe there was some bad blood involved, but it happened entirely out of his volition. Now all of a sudden he's talking about how his health insurance was abruptly cancelled and he was left in the lurch. That would not have happened if he had planned to leave Obsidian!

 

So if Chris Avellone was fired, the question that needs to be asked is - why?

 

Planned or not, it could be he simply didn't know leaving Obsidian would immediately end his health insurance.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

If Avellone hurt PoE's development that much, maybe he really was fired?

 

 

It can't be overstated. When Chris left Obsidian back in 2015, everybody assumed it was an orderly and planned "resigned to pursue other interests" scenario. Maybe there was some bad blood involved, but it happened entirely out of his volition. Now all of a sudden he's talking about how his health insurance was abruptly cancelled and he was left in the lurch. That would not have happened if he had planned to leave Obsidian!

 

So if Chris Avellone was fired, the question that needs to be asked is - why?

Not really. His job or lack thereof is a private matter, regardless of how badly (or not) Obsidian handled it.

[Zoraptor]

I make no assumptions about anything one way or the other, and haven't read the interview or any of the Codex thread.

Sorry, I meant that Chris was implying they tried for a 'non compete clause', not that you were implying it but reading again I can see how it read the other way.

 

 

Planned or not, it could be he simply didn't know leaving Obsidian would immediately end his health insurance.

 

 

That's what I would assume as well, lacking any other information. The firing implication is extremely tenuous, given Chris basically said he left after he'd paid off his debts, to whit:

 

Realizing debt was affecting my decision, I instead focused on working as hard as possible to make up for the amount Obsidian tried to use as leverage to force a signature – and succeeded.

 

When that happened, I realized I was free of the situation – completely free, for the first time. Feargus and the owners had no hold on my voice, my time, and my creativity any longer. And it was great.

 

 

The last bit definitely implies he only quit after saving enough to clear whatever debt there was so there was no more 'leverage'. If he'd been fired it would be a massive coincidence if it was exactly at the right time for his debt to have been cleared. Sounds to me like he either worked out his contract or handed in notice as soon as it was viable, nothing more or less.

[Infinitron]

Not clear to me that the moment he describes there when he was "completely free" is the day he left Obsidian. It could be something that happened after he left, a post-departure settling of accounts.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Infinitron