Weapons profficiency modals +50% recovery time, isn't that little too much?

[Farsha]

Weapons profficiency modals +50% recovery time, isn't that little too much?
Who uses that instead of switching to better weapon for the situation? Specially when non profficient weapons don't suffer from accuracy penalty?

Recovery speed is a major stat, maybe even top stat (poorly trackable in the game BTW). Such proficiency seems useless to me, the debuff is much bigger that the given buff.
example Sabre +2pen + 50%rec time. So I'll switch to mace If need more pen or rapier, depeding on damage resistance type monster has. Why ever use that horrible modal.
Proffciency should encourage specialization into weapons, not discourage it.

At max 20%rec time would be fair.

Weapon proficiency should just have buff not debuff. I understand they wanted it to be modal ability (I think that was a mistake), not passive, so it had to have downside. But that downside is to big to ever use. (Unless you are Fighter-Devoted, and maybe punching monk who have no choise but to run with their selected weapon)

Edited April 9, 2018 by Farsha

[dunehunter]

In current recover system, if you are naked, 10 Dex wielding one sabre, your recovery time is 4 second, with sabre modal you have like 5.7 sec or so recovery time, let's assume you cannot penetrate enemy armor and is at exactly 25% damage, modal improve it to 75%, your dps is improved by 3 times, if you are at 50% damage, modal improve it to 100% full damage, so in this case the modal is ok, otherwise it is pretty meaningless. I don't compare other weapons here because I don't know the stats of each weapon in Beta4. Might be a better idea to switch to mace.

[Farsha]

In current recover system, if you are naked, 10 Dex wielding one sabre, your recovery time is 4 second, with sabre modal you have like 5.7 sec or so recovery time, let's assume you cannot penetrate enemy armor and is at exactly 25% damage, modal improve it to 75%, your dps is improved by 3 times, if you are at 50% damage, modal improve it to 100% full damage, so in this case the modal is ok, otherwise it is pretty meaningless. I don't compare other weapons here because I don't know the stats of each weapon in Beta4. Might be a better idea to switch to mace.

Mace has same recovery as sabre, rapier is bit faster. Now it is way better to just switch weapon than to use the modal. And since profficiency does not have accuracy bonus it is pointless at that point.

So having 3 weapon sets (slash,pierce,crush) or 2 (slash/pierce, pierce/crush) completely negates any usefullness of weapon proffciency in most cases.

 

And problem with you calculation is you'll not nornally fight naked and together with armor you'll become really slow. Two-handers area already slow do they have +50% modal as well? (I know great-sword does not... but -15 accuracy, that is useless in most cases as well, basicallly u need buff like disciplined strikes to ever hit with that, on it's own it is pretty bad)

 

 

My issue with this design choise is that character with profficiency should be using it. He should be really good with his profficent weapon. Now you'll not use it in most cases and your character having proffieciency means nothing, so why even bother?

 

It made lot more sense as accuracy passive if you ask me.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Farsha

[JerekKruger]

You've highlighted why I think the new armour system is worse than the old one Dunehunter. Having more penetration did sheets be a good thing, but under the current system it is often not.

 

As for weapon proficiencies, I really don't like the system. I dislike being forced to not and more (thus cluttering my hotbars) and I think, with a few exceptions, most are just bad.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Generally, the answer is yes. I really hope they tweak the modals before launch - actually in the form of various slight buffs and speed-ups, since nearly nobody among the PoE veterans ever use most modals.

[Farsha]

If they want to keep the profficiencies modal, they should add somehting like stances fighter has. Have like fast swing, strong swing and accurate swing modal. Just a little bonus like 5-10 percent so player can choose which one to use.
Don't think any debuff for using profficient weapon makes sense, specially not such a big one like 50% recovery or -15 accuracy.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Farsha

[PatrioticChief]

I am sure weapon proficiency are here to stay but outside of devoted I couldn't give less craps about them. 

[theBalthazar]

There is too much options.

 

1) 3 proficiency points of investment for different forms of modal, always in full equity.

E.g. :

Half-sword [base]

Deflection - 5 / Penetration 1

 

Half-sword [intermediate]

Deflection -10 / Penetration 2

 

Half-sword [Full power]

Deflection -15 / Penetration 3

 

And, like a modal, you can choose the might of the effect among three possibilities.

 

----------------------

 

2) An old idea of mine. Again, three levels of proficiency, but to increase the differents effects.

E.g. :

Half-sword [base] Acquisition

Deflection - 10 / Penetration 1

 

Half-sword [intermediate] Down the malus

Deflection -5 / Penetration 1

 

Half-sword [Full power] Increase the bonus

Deflection -5 / Penetration 2

 

Here, only one modal, but increased level after level.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

You can add variants, like the fact that the basic versions are all directly available to the player. To leave only two points to increase.

Edited April 9, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Some modals are good, for example:

 

- will/reflex/fortitude/deflection for less damage

 

- half sword

 

- destructive channeling

 

So basically everything that doesn't give you more damage (+PEN or +DMG) by taking it away (-ACC or +recovery).

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I half-suspect that "rebalancing all the weapon modals" was planned but might not happen before release. They've felt like placeholder values from the start. 

 

I think a lot of them might find a use once we get into the full game though and can compensate for their downsides. For example I can see the pistol modal becoming very useful once and if people figure out how to stack accuracy super-high, because accuracy has a ceiling where it stops adding to damage.

 

Similarly, if people figure out how to stack recovery bonuses to get super-fast (which was the dominant strategy in the first game) then all those recovery penalty modals might turn out to be great (what's +50% recovery if your recovery is down to a single frame anyway?). 

 

Like a lot of other things it's gonna all depend on what gear etc. is available in the full game and that's probably part of why they're waiting on the rebalance.

[Boeroer]

It's much harder to stack attack speed in Deadfire because here (unlike PoE) stacked attack speed bonuses have diminishing returns and everything that is a penalty has bug impact because of the double inversion with which it's calculated. I I don't thnink we will ever have a situation where -50% recovery doesn't hurt your dps.

[hilfazer]

 let's assume you cannot penetrate enemy armor and is at exactly 25% damage, modal improve it to 75%, your dps is improved by 3 times

 

No. Your damage is improved 3 times, DPS calculation includes attack speed which is reduced by this modal.

 

Saber modal, as unrealistic as it is, is fine because in some situations it helps and in others it hurts. Works as intended. We, players, need to identify those situations and act accordingly. Toggling a modal once then forgetting about it until end of the game is not something we should expect this time.

 

-accuracy modals can work if debuffs lower deflection enough. I don't have beta access so i can't tell if it's the case but i heard some modals that did reduce deflection in PoE1 and have all reasons to do it... no longer do it in PoE2. It was stun or paralysis.

 

+recovery would make sense on polease modal as it wouldn't sabotage your disengagement attacks like -damage do. Did OEI change it by any chance?

 

+recovery is bad on xbows (and maybe arbalests) because it sabotages your interrupts. -damage wouldn't sabotage them. Did OEI change it by any chance?

[dunehunter]

 

 let's assume you cannot penetrate enemy armor and is at exactly 25% damage, modal improve it to 75%, your dps is improved by 3 times

 

No. Your damage is improved 3 times, DPS calculation includes attack speed which is reduced by this modal.

 

Saber modal, as unrealistic as it is, is fine because in some situations it helps and in others it hurts. Works as intended. We, players, need to identify those situations and act accordingly. Toggling a modal once then forgetting about it until end of the game is not something we should expect this time.

 

-accuracy modals can work if debuffs lower deflection enough. I don't have beta access so i can't tell if it's the case but i heard some modals that did reduce deflection in PoE1 and have all reasons to do it... no longer do it in PoE2. It was stun or paralysis.

 

+recovery would make sense on polease modal as it wouldn't sabotage your disengagement attacks like -damage do. Did OEI change it by any chance?

 

+recovery is bad on xbows (and maybe arbalests) because it sabotages your interrupts. -damage wouldn't sabotage them. Did OEI change it by any chance?

 

 

Yeah my bad, I shouldn't say DPS here, it's just damage is improved 3 times, but when considering attack speed, it's not that much.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

It's much harder to stack attack speed in Deadfire because here (unlike PoE) stacked attack speed bonuses have diminishing returns and everything that is a penalty has bug impact because of the double inversion with which it's calculated. I I don't thnink we will ever have a situation where -50% recovery doesn't hurt your dps.

 

 

Hrm, that's a good point. 

 

There's also the big issue that a lot of the modals which would be useful, are never gonna get used, because it's too fiddly to tell when they're useful.

 

If weapon switching and weapon modals were something you could script in the AI, a lot of the ehhhh modals would be more useful (for example, switching shield modals or quarterstaff defensive stance on and off if an enemy is engaging you). 

 

The system is good in concept it just needs another design pass.

[Farsha]

My idea of active weapon profficency.

Once character has proffciency then with proffcient weapons he would have:

3 selectable stances (similar in UI to what fighter has)
1. High stance + penetration (good against high armored targets & good for high dmg hitting builds)
2. Medium stance + accuracy (good agains high deflection targets & good for crit builds)
3. Low stance + speed (good against targets with low defenses in general & good for speed builds)

+ these 3 would have visually differnt animations, which would really make them stand out and fee like they mean even more.

No downsides since character profficient with weapon is always better with it than not profficient character.

(Yes, I stole it from Nioh, but it would work well in any rpg, system is just really good)

Edited April 9, 2018 by Farsha

[Clean&Clear]

 

 

 

There's also the big issue that a lot of the modals which would be useful, are never gonna get used, because it's too fiddly to tell when they're useful.

 

If weapon switching and weapon modals were something you could script in the AI, a lot of the ehhhh modals would be more useful (for example, switching shield modals or quarterstaff defensive stance on and off if an enemy is engaging you). 

 

The system is good in concept it just needs another design pass.

 

 

I really like this idea. I find it quite tedious to adjust modals for half the party for each new enemy you're targeting, that's why I'm not too fond of the modals right now. I also don't like my characters acting by themselves, so I'm planning on playing with minimum AI enabled for my party. But if it would be possible to program toggling modals and changing weapons, that would definitely be a reason for me to start using the AI scripting more, and I think it would be a perfect fit. I feel like it would feel pretty good to see your characters change weapons and toggle modals based on what enemy they're fighting, while it doesn't necessarily feel good to do all the adjustments yourself.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, you have to be a real slowpoke to enjoy the weapon modals even as they are right now. Given the hectic pace of combat, you have to pause a lot, and play it super-slow. I like to play in slow mode, but this is beyond my level of micro-managing. So, AI customization functions for wpn modals, yes please!

[PatrioticChief]

One cool thing is that if you dual wield half swords, I think, you can get + penetration on each sword but only lose the lose the base deflection. 

[dunehunter]

Also need to be noted that if you have Sabre in mainhand, and another weapon in offhand, your full attack abilities don’t calculate mainhand recovery time so you can just turn Sabre modal on with no penalty.

[Farsha]

One cool thing is that if you dual wield half swords, I think, you can get + penetration on each sword but only lose the lose the base deflection. 

how do you actaully half-sword while dual-wielding? 4 hands? :D

[Soulmojo]

I agree that weapon modals are harsh especially those with recovery times. 

 

In my opinion the simplest fix would be that these speed penalties target weapon attack speed instead of recovery. This would for example provide at 100% attack speed penalty a 0,4 sec casting speed with fast weapon a 0,6 sec with slower weapons.

Since attack speeds are fixed as far as I know it is easy to balance. Does not provide over the top penalties. You are slower, but not that much slower, you can be interrupted more easily but not too much. 

 

You can finally combine different weapons with each other for their flavour.

 

The problem with modal penalty targetting recovery, is that adding anykind of armor and this results very very slow attack rate. And you have to use armor of somekind because you will be eaten alive if you don't.

 

Finally - and this is going to be a bit offtopic - knights in full plate using 2 handed longsword can attack a lot and fast in quick succession. So I really don't get the slow recovery times on 2 handed weapons and the 55% speed penalty on full plate and brigantine resulting in 6-7+ recovery times.

Especially if you add for example buckler 25% recovery penalty and another weapon recovery penalty modal.

either recovery times on 2 handed weapons has to go down or the penalty on medium and heavy armor or both.

35% speed penalty on breastplate is what should be on the full plate. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Soulmojo

[PatrioticChief]

I half-suspect that "rebalancing all the weapon modals" was planned but might not happen before release. They've felt like placeholder values from the start. 

 

I think a lot of them might find a use once we get into the full game though and can compensate for their downsides. For example I can see the pistol modal becoming very useful once and if people figure out how to stack accuracy super-high, because accuracy has a ceiling where it stops adding to damage.

 

Similarly, if people figure out how to stack recovery bonuses to get super-fast (which was the dominant strategy in the first game) then all those recovery penalty modals might turn out to be great (what's +50% recovery if your recovery is down to a single frame anyway?). 

 

Like a lot of other things it's gonna all depend on what gear etc. is available in the full game and that's probably part of why they're waiting on the rebalance.

 

What's the ceiling for accuracy?

[PatrioticChief]

 

One cool thing is that if you dual wield half swords, I think, you can get + penetration on each sword but only lose the lose the base deflection. 

how do you actaully half-sword while dual-wielding? 4 hands? :D

 

 

Because PoE science. :D

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I half-suspect that "rebalancing all the weapon modals" was planned but might not happen before release. They've felt like placeholder values from the start. 

 

I think a lot of them might find a use once we get into the full game though and can compensate for their downsides. For example I can see the pistol modal becoming very useful once and if people figure out how to stack accuracy super-high, because accuracy has a ceiling where it stops adding to damage.

 

Similarly, if people figure out how to stack recovery bonuses to get super-fast (which was the dominant strategy in the first game) then all those recovery penalty modals might turn out to be great (what's +50% recovery if your recovery is down to a single frame anyway?). 

 

Like a lot of other things it's gonna all depend on what gear etc. is available in the full game and that's probably part of why they're waiting on the rebalance.

 

What's the ceiling for accuracy?

 

 

 

I should have said "soft ceiling". It varies by monster and difficulty level (PotD). Basically, each point of additional accuracy shifts misses to grazes, grazes to hits, hits to crits, etc. Thing is, converting a hit to a crit is just +25% damage, but converting a miss to a graze is +50% damage! 

 

So when accuracy is low you're converting a  lot of misses to grazes and grazes to hits, which is a big damage boost. Once you have +25 accuracy over target's defenses, though (which isn't hard to hit at all on normal difficulties for most enemies, if you use debuffs), the bonus from Per drops off, and if you get enemy defenses low enough / your Accuracy high enough (remember, Devotions for the Faithful adds 20 by itself!), the relative value of more accuracy keeps going down. 

 

There is a theoretical hard ceiling if you were +100 accuracy over target's defenses, where every hit would be a critical and then additional accuracy would do nothing at all, but that actually is pretty hard to reach.

 

To bring this back around to the Pistol modal though, if you've got a priest in the party and they cast Dire Blessing and Devotions for the Faithful, that's +25 accuracy right there, and those are both Beta powers, nothing more. Turn on the pistol rapid fire modal then, and you're still +10 Accuracy above your baseline, not counting Perception etc. or any debuffs on the target.

 

It should be possible to calculate mathematically what the "break point" is for +accuracy where the pistol modal becomes useful (because the increased reload speed gives more of a bonus than you lose from the lost accuracy).

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[PatrioticChief]

 

 

I half-suspect that "rebalancing all the weapon modals" was planned but might not happen before release. They've felt like placeholder values from the start. 

 

I think a lot of them might find a use once we get into the full game though and can compensate for their downsides. For example I can see the pistol modal becoming very useful once and if people figure out how to stack accuracy super-high, because accuracy has a ceiling where it stops adding to damage.

 

Similarly, if people figure out how to stack recovery bonuses to get super-fast (which was the dominant strategy in the first game) then all those recovery penalty modals might turn out to be great (what's +50% recovery if your recovery is down to a single frame anyway?). 

 

Like a lot of other things it's gonna all depend on what gear etc. is available in the full game and that's probably part of why they're waiting on the rebalance.

 

What's the ceiling for accuracy?

 

 

 

I should have said "soft ceiling". It varies by monster and difficulty level (PotD). Basically, each point of additional accuracy shifts misses to grazes, grazes to hits, hits to crits, etc. Thing is, converting a hit to a crit is just +25% damage, but converting a miss to a graze is +50% damage! 

 

So when accuracy is low you're converting a  lot of misses to grazes and grazes to hits, which is a big damage boost. Once you have +25 accuracy over target's defenses, though (which isn't hard to hit at all on normal difficulties for most enemies, if you use debuffs), the bonus from Per drops off, and if you get enemy defenses low enough / your Accuracy high enough (remember, Devotions for the Faithful adds 20 by itself!), the relative value of more accuracy keeps going down. 

 

There is a theoretical hard ceiling if you were +100 accuracy over target's defenses, where every hit would be a critical and then additional accuracy would do nothing at all, but that actually is pretty hard to reach.

 

To bring this back around to the Pistol modal though, if you've got a priest in the party and they cast Dire Blessing and Devotions for the Faithful, that's +25 accuracy right there, and those are both Beta powers, nothing more. Turn on the pistol rapid fire modal then, and you're still +10 Accuracy above your baseline, not counting Perception etc. or any debuffs on the target.

 

It should be possible to calculate mathematically what the "break point" is for +accuracy where the pistol modal becomes useful (because the increased reload speed gives more of a bonus than you lose from the lost accuracy).

 

 

Good explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I still think the weapon modal negatives are too harsh though.