Combat too complex?

[JFutral]

Well there's more cases than Minsc of "illegal" characters, like Aerie for instance. This is more due to the 2e rules being utterly insane and having very weird restrictions placed for arbitrary reasons. 3e and PoE opened things up a lot, but PoE did a better job in making stats matter for all classes even if Resolve was just as useless as Charisma.

 

Meh. I still think his wisdom/intelligence was aided by Boo. Boo had enough wisdom and intelligence for both of them.

 

But I totally disagree about stats in PoE. PoE made them matter less for any class. Flattened across the board.

 

 

 Joe

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Well there's more cases than Minsc of "illegal" characters, like Aerie for instance. This is more due to the 2e rules being utterly insane and having very weird restrictions placed for arbitrary reasons. 3e and PoE opened things up a lot, but PoE did a better job in making stats matter for all classes even if Resolve was just as useless as Charisma.

 

Meh. I still think his wisdom/intelligence was aided by Boo. Boo had enough wisdom and intelligence for both of them.

But I totally disagree about stats in PoE. PoE made them matter less for any class. Flattened across the board.

 Joe

That's more of an issue with degree, and frankly something I agree with to some extent. In D&D 3rd Charsima is only used for spell casting or special abilities for certain classes, outside of that it has no use in combat. In such a case why is it tied to an ability score instead being inherit to the class? What is good about PoE is there is some benefit to putting points into stats I would otherwise ignore because there was no benefit. There were still issues, like Resolve being easily dumpable, but overall I prefer it to 3e and immensely prefer it to 2e.

[JFutral]

That's more of an issue with degree, and frankly something I agree with to some extent. In D&D 3rd Charsima is only used for spell casting or special abilities for certain classes, outside of that it has no use in combat. In such a case why is it tied to an ability score instead being inherit to the class? What is good about PoE is there is some benefit to putting points into stats I would otherwise ignore because there was no benefit. There were still issues, like Resolve being easily dumpable, but overall I prefer it to 3e and immensely prefer it to 2e.

I think some of that thinking (all of that thinking?) was built on the original premise of roll your stats and decide what class best suits the resulting rolls. Of course, back in the day, Charisma was always fodder for some animated discussions on what it was exactly, too, never mind how important it should be. I'll give BG credit for having it affect shop pricing. I never thought of that as a DM. Makes sense.

 

What I liked about stats in at least PnP D&D vs PoE is that having a certain stat score did not always guaruntee outcomes. It increased chances for things, but sometimes, depending on how DMs weighted certain encounters an intelligence or other attribute score could be high enough with at least had a _chance_. Now with PoE your stat is either high enough or it isn't. You don't even get a probability roll. To me that removes role playing entirely from many encounters.

 

And it still makes no sense to me why my Wizard's intelligence doesn't contribute to some of those encounters. Surely he is listening in on the conversation, too, and would have a say.

 

Everything is give and take. I get it.

 

Joe

[draego]

 

That's more of an issue with degree, and frankly something I agree with to some extent. In D&D 3rd Charsima is only used for spell casting or special abilities for certain classes, outside of that it has no use in combat. In such a case why is it tied to an ability score instead being inherit to the class? What is good about PoE is there is some benefit to putting points into stats I would otherwise ignore because there was no benefit. There were still issues, like Resolve being easily dumpable, but overall I prefer it to 3e and immensely prefer it to 2e.

I think some of that thinking (all of that thinking?) was built on the original premise of roll your stats and decide what class best suits the resulting rolls. Of course, back in the day, Charisma was always fodder for some animated discussions on what it was exactly, too, never mind how important it should be. I'll give BG credit for having it affect shop pricing. I never thought of that as a DM. Makes sense.

 

What I liked about stats in at least PnP D&D vs PoE is that having a certain stat score did not always guaruntee outcomes. It increased chances for things, but sometimes, depending on how DMs weighted certain encounters an intelligence or other attribute score could be high enough with at least had a _chance_. Now with PoE your stat is either high enough or it isn't. You don't even get a probability roll. To me that removes role playing entirely from many encounters.

 

And it still makes no sense to me why my Wizard's intelligence doesn't contribute to some of those encounters. Surely he is listening in on the conversation, too, and would have a say.

 

Everything is give and take. I get it.

 

Joe

 

 

I disagree with this completely. I couldnt stand percent based chances in wasteland 2 recently. To me you are mistaking two types of games PnP vs Single payer video game. These arent the same medium and when you treat them the same you get for example in this circumstance not better roleplaying but encouraging more save scrumming with percent based stuff. This isnt a table with friends were you can stop retry after retry as the DM. To be sure you could still encourage some save scrumming with POE by saving and going back and fixing your stats until you meet the requirements but i found it much more enjoyable to turn off showing requirement checks and just roleplaying your character instead of seeing some stupid 25% chance to succeed and regretting what could have been or worse 95% chance to succeed and fail i mean who wouldnt retry until it succeeded.

Edited February 14, 2018 by draego

[Wormerine]

 

 

I think some of that thinking (all of that thinking?) was built on the original premise of roll your stats and decide what class best suits the resulting rolls. Of course, back in the day, Charisma was always fodder for some animated discussions on what it was exactly, too, never mind how important it should be. I'll give BG credit for having it affect shop pricing. I never thought of that as a DM. Makes sense.

 

What I liked about stats in at least PnP D&D vs PoE is that having a certain stat score did not always guaruntee outcomes. It increased chances for things, but sometimes, depending on how DMs weighted certain encounters an intelligence or other attribute score could be high enough with at least had a _chance_. Now with PoE your stat is either high enough or it isn't. You don't even get a probability roll. To me that removes role playing entirely from many encounters.

You are comparing tabletop experience to singleplayer computer game RPG - here I think I start to understand your stance a bit, but at the same time I havr to point out issues with that line of thinking. PoE isn't tabletop game, isn't played with DM (not present, human one) and is a singleplayer experience. 

 

Making a roll for a conversation/skill check would only make sense, if the game had a hard ironman mode. It is a bad design, to include mechanics which can be easily avoided. For example, "Transistor" had a neat variation on the death system, however, it could be easily bypassed by reloading last checkpoint making system irrelevant. It's the same reason why chance of being ambushed during resting was removed - because players who got ambushed in a critical situation would reload, therefore the mechanics didn't do its job in this particular type of game. Dice rolls during attribute distribution in BGs was bad, because you could roll it as much as you please. And of your roll badly, DM won't adjust game for you to have fun. I understand, it had its role in a tabletop, but those two are, and shouldn't be, the same. In lengthy cRPG its more important that you can create a character you want, rather to have to adjust to inferior and randomized attributes.

[Madscientist]

 

Well there's more cases than Minsc of "illegal" characters, like Aerie for instance. This is more due to the 2e rules being utterly insane and having very weird restrictions placed for arbitrary reasons. 3e and PoE opened things up a lot, but PoE did a better job in making stats matter for all classes even if Resolve was just as useless as Charisma.

 

Meh. I still think his wisdom/intelligence was aided by Boo. Boo had enough wisdom and intelligence for both of them.

 

But I totally disagree about stats in PoE. PoE made them matter less for any class. Flattened across the board.

 

 

 Joe

 

Personally I prefer a system where all stats have an effect to some degree (PoE) over a system where you can dump half of the stats without consequences (DnD 2nd edition).

Does a fighter or thief have any bonus from int, wis, cha in the IE games?

The IE games also strongly encouraged you to maximize the main stats of a char. A wizard without high int cannot learn spells.

 

The next text may be a bit too extreme, but I think it goes in the right direction:

- The IE games gave you the illusion of choice. There were many possible ways to spend your points, but only a few of those options were good while most ways to spend your points were bad. After spending your attribute points the only significant choice in character developement was to spend you profiency points (and when to dual class, if you want it).

- It is true that the effects of stats in PoE are smaller than DnD. But they do have an effect, there are several ways to spend them for each class and several different choices are useful and you have importent choices at every level up, not just at character creation.

 

I really liked the IE games and I had lots of fun playing them. But today they are old games and PoE is new. The devs learned from those games and tried to keep the good things while they also tried to improve the things they liked not so much. I think they did a good job.

 

about dice rolls vs fixed stat requirements:

Thats one difference between PnP and a computer game. In a computer game if you have a random result and you fail, you can simply reload and try again. You can call this cheating if you like, but I did it and I am sure I am not the only one. For example I did it in T:ToN because I did not want to spend efford points, I kept those for combat.

I consider it OK to have fixed stat or skill requirements in scripted events, but once again, I have never been a PnP player.

[Gfted1]

Pillars of Eternity (pen-and-paper RPG).

[IndiraLightfoot]

What I liked about stats in at least PnP D&D vs PoE is that having a certain stat score did not always guaruntee outcomes. It increased chances for things, but sometimes, depending on how DMs weighted certain encounters an intelligence or other attribute score could be high enough with at least had a _chance_. Now with PoE your stat is either high enough or it isn't. You don't even get a probability roll. To me that removes role playing entirely from many encounters.

 

 

 

 

I disagree with this completely. I couldnt stand percent based chances in wasteland 2 recently. To me you are mistaking two types of games PnP vs Single payer video game. These arent the same medium and when you treat them the same you get for example in this circumstance not better roleplaying but encouraging more save scrumming with percent based stuff. This isnt a table with friends were you can stop retry after retry as the DM.

 

I'm so torn on this. I mean, I can get really salty if some random roll doesn't go my way in a CRPG or in any game, and in these moments I feel that I just hate such systems, really, but at the same time, such games are usually the ones I love the most. I fear that my PnP background has a firm grip on me still, and as such I actually prefer it the way JFutral describes it. I disregard the argument about save scumming, since that is still an issue in both CRPG systems. For instance, in Wasteland 2, I recall several moments when I was like walking on broken glass, watching two or three improbable rolls go the way of my party, and I just love those moments. I find other systems a bit too stiff and inflexible - since in my weird head, these probabilities and percentage rolls, heighten my sense of each playthrough, and of each encounter, being a bit more unique and intense. Old-fashioned and slightly nutty, but it gets my juices flowing. Sorry...

Edited February 14, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[JFutral]

You are comparing tabletop experience to singleplayer computer game RPG -

If that is what you think, then, no, you are not starting to understand me.

 

Joe

Edited February 14, 2018 by JFutral

[JFutral]

Personally I prefer a system where all stats have an effect to some degree (PoE) over a system where you can dump half of the stats without consequences (DnD 2nd edition).

Wait. Isn't that the whole premise of the min/max builds? That you can dump a stat? have I missed something here? there is no difference between BG and PoE on this matter. 

 

Joe

[JFutral]

[i disagree with this completely. I couldnt stand percent based chances in wasteland 2 recently. To me you are mistaking two types of games PnP vs Single payer video game. These arent the same medium and when you treat them the same you get for example in this circumstance not better roleplaying but encouraging more save scrumming with percent based stuff. This isnt a table with friends were you can stop retry after retry as the DM. To be sure you could still encourage some save scrumming with POE by saving and going back and fixing your stats until you meet the requirements but i found it much more enjoyable to turn off showing requirement checks and just roleplaying your character instead of seeing some stupid 25% chance to succeed and regretting what could have been or worse 95% chance to succeed and fail i mean who wouldnt retry until it succeeded.

Hey, I won't deny it takes a certain zen acceptance to appreciate probability. Personally I think it adds variety and requires resourceful, on the fly thinking. I am not a big fan of predetermined outcomes. I would never make a good Lutheran.

 

Joe

[anfoglia]

 

 

 

It means when there is only a single optimal path of stat distribution to any given class. Why do you have stat distribution at all since it's not a question of flexibility and roleplaying but rather a checklist you have to get? It makes no sense in a game where you do not roll for stats.

 

PoE aims, ideally with varying success, that the stats should have different impact that is useful asymmetrically, you use stats to build a character idea instead of aspiring to correct numbers to the required values. Meaning that you can make a fighter with high dexterity and high perception, and taking appropriate abilities on level up that you conceptualise as a more of a duellist or you can make a fighter that pumps strength and constitution completely as a heavy hitter who also can take a blow like Dorn. 

 

This means that there is no simple solution to stat distribution which makes it more complex but it provides also depth and variety, which I think is a good reason for its inherent complexity. This also means better roleplay elements because you can tailor your character to what you envision them as without necessarily striving from the optimal distribution. 

 

 

Again. I simply beg to differ.

 

And has nothing to do with my point. A Minsc or Dorn is a much easier, straight forward build in BG. It isn't impossible in PoE, but it is a more complex issue.

 

Joe

 

 

It isn't complex at all, you pump 3 stats and ignore the rest in either case. You are literally complaining about having options here as opposed to your knowledge you acquired in D&D.

 

 

No it is not that simple because of how PoE has balanced out the dynamics of the stats, never mind you can't _just_ pump all three stats enough to get to a Dorn or Minsc character. First you have to Min/Max the stats, which is dicey if you aren't already familiar with how to counter balance for the mins. Then you have to select the right talents and skills and know the right gear to get at which points in the game, to build the right synergy.

 

I am not complaining about options. I can't tell if you are just being deliberately obtuse or not. The point is the options and inherent complexities of PoE don't make certain builds as clear cut as they are in BG/D&D.

 

To Wormerine's point, this is a deliberate move on Obsidian's part, the flattening of stats' dynamics, so it is difficult to build a bad character. But this also has the adverse effect on the ease to create characters like Minsc or Edwin.

 

 

 

Why do you think building a Minsc archetype is significantly easier in BG? I mean, in BG you still need to know which stats you can afford to drop, which weapons you'll want, and how to spend your proficiency points. Is it just that certain stats are clearly useless for the build (assuming you've read the manual or have the background in D&D) whereas in POE the stats that don't go directly to hitting hard or taking punches still have some attraction? POE does have in-game attribute descriptions to tell you that, for example, intelligence will not make your fighter hit harder or take more punches...

 

 

 

 

 

[i disagree with this completely. I couldnt stand percent based chances in wasteland 2 recently. To me you are mistaking two types of games PnP vs Single payer video game. These arent the same medium and when you treat them the same you get for example in this circumstance not better roleplaying but encouraging more save scrumming with percent based stuff. This isnt a table with friends were you can stop retry after retry as the DM. To be sure you could still encourage some save scrumming with POE by saving and going back and fixing your stats until you meet the requirements but i found it much more enjoyable to turn off showing requirement checks and just roleplaying your character instead of seeing some stupid 25% chance to succeed and regretting what could have been or worse 95% chance to succeed and fail i mean who wouldnt retry until it succeeded.

Hey, I won't deny it takes a certain zen acceptance to appreciate probability. Personally I think it adds variety and requires resourceful, on the fly thinking. I am not a big fan of predetermined outcomes. I would never make a good Lutheran.

 

Joe

 

 

Do you mean Calvinist? (I mean, my understanding is that Lutherans do believe in a kind of predestination, but the Calvinists are famous for it).

 

Anyway, I tend to dislike probability-based checks in computer games, but I can understanding wanting to import the sense of dynamism and improvisation from the tabletop world.

[Wormerine]

 

You are comparing tabletop experience to singleplayer computer game RPG -

 

If that is what you think, then, no, you are not starting to understand me.

Joe

I “love” how you respond without actually having anything to say.

 

What I liked about stats in at least PnP D&D vs PoE

That wasn’t a guess, but an observation. I can see you have no interest in discussion. G-bye.

[gGeorg]

 

The thing is that PoE1 combat was polished. While Deadfire combat is raw, and there are many little things that break our 'veteran' tactics from PoE1, making reality not matching expectations.

 

Yeah, I get that some of this is still being figured out in light that some of the foundational elements have changed dramatically, or at least they seem to have changed dramatically (health/endurance, AR, penetration). Everything affects everything.

 

For the longest time I kept trying to figure out why my characters needed a pen while fighting. Were they trying to sign a contract or something?

 

"No pen"?

 

WTF?

 

"I know they say the pen is mightier than the sword, but right now I need you to use your sword!"

 

Joe

 

I think those meesages are provisional, so they will be replaced by graphical icons, or animated icons.

I am Not fan of flying tex/ numbers too.

[demeisen]

​

​While I wouldn't say it's "too complex" (complexity in games is a good thing, if done well), I agree fully with this:

​

I'm a bit late to the party but I'd also like to say that I too am not enjoying the deadfire beta as much as I expected. I was also expecting that we would use POE 3.0 as a starting point upon which multiclassing and higher level gameplay would be added (with slight tweaks).

 

What Dukeisaac said perfectly states what I've been feeling about DF too.

 

There's not a shred of doubt in my mind that the DF world is going to be utterly awesome, awe inspiringly beautiful, and a delight to explore.  However, I really felt POE 3.0 had a well polished and enjoyable combat system, and I wanted to explore the DF world with a derivation of that ... not in a system that threw out a lot of the core mechanics like the long term health pool, core aspects of caster classes, etc.  I won't argue the POE system was perfect.  As Dukeissac said too, it could be tweaked and improved, no doubt.  But just that... tweaked.

​

​So... I've got a love/hate thing going with DF right now.  I'm psyched about seeing a new part of the game world as imagined by the talented Obsidian artists and world-builders, who, based on POE1 and the DF demo, I consider to be the best in the biz.  The game world is simply stellar,  but the new combat is not doing it for me.  Some of that is probably balance, and can be tweaked to improve it, but I feel a significant part is systemic, too.  Too many core mechanics upended.

​

[MountainTiger]

 

Personally I prefer a system where all stats have an effect to some degree (PoE) over a system where you can dump half of the stats without consequences (DnD 2nd edition).

Wait. Isn't that the whole premise of the min/max builds? That you can dump a stat? have I missed something here? there is no difference between BG and PoE on this matter. 

 

Joe

 

 

There is no reason to ever take over minimum Wisdom or Charisma on a fighter in BG. Decent Intelligence is a reasonablee choice in BG2, since you have a decent number of fights against int draining enemies, but for the rest of the game it also doesn't matter.

 

On the flip side, there is no reason to ever take less than maximum Dexterity and Constitution on any BG character. You can always reroll until you have enough points to max them and the other stats your class uses if your initial roll doesn't cover maxing everything.

 

PoE, through point buy and putting something useful for every character on every attribute (sometimes just the defense, but then the reason dex and con were universally good in BG was that they were the stats with an impact on defenses) makes min-maxing a tradeoff instead of an objectively correct way of maxing the subset of stats that matter while dumping those that don't.

[mrmonocle]

current spell interrupt on new command issue warning would be nice.

[Boeroer]

Yes, or simply remove this mechanic and regain the resource if the spell didn't go off and if it wasn't interrupted by enemies - because you already spend a ton of casting time for nothing and that's punishment enough I'd say. But now you get additional punishment: the resource is gone as well - without the spelll getting relased. Because you had to cancel your casting because some Usain-Bolt-Lagufaeths on steroids ran all over the place like headless chicken on speed and punched you in the face several times and then ran away giggling. 

[Wormerine]

Yes, or simply remove this mechanic and regain the resource if the spell didn't go off and if it wasn't interrupted by enemies - because you already spend a ton of casting time for nothing and that's punishment enough I'd say.

 

Good news. It was a big complain during in-house testing as well. Yesterday during stream Josh confirmed that they will remove it and you will be able to move/change spell without loosing your resource.

[mrmonocle]

 

Yes, or simply remove this mechanic and regain the resource if the spell didn't go off and if it wasn't interrupted by enemies - because you already spend a ton of casting time for nothing and that's punishment enough I'd say.

Good news. It was a big complain during in-house testing as well. Yesterday during stream Josh confirmed that they will remove it and you will be able to move/change spell without loosing your resource.

 

care to put the link here, please?

[the_dog_days]

 

 

Yes, or simply remove this mechanic and regain the resource if the spell didn't go off and if it wasn't interrupted by enemies - because you already spend a ton of casting time for nothing and that's punishment enough I'd say.

Good news. It was a big complain during in-house testing as well. Yesterday during stream Josh confirmed that they will remove it and you will be able to move/change spell without loosing your resource.

 

care to put the link here, please?

 

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/229121722

[IndiraLightfoot]

now you get additional punishment: the resource is gone as well - without the spelll getting relased. Because you had to cancel your casting because some Usain-Bolt-Lagufaeths on steroids ran all over the place like headless chicken on speed and punched you in the face several times and then ran away giggling. 

[Nail]

Lower recovery rates for player actions would be nice too...

It's not fun when optimized build to be fast acting in general is slow in game reality.

I don't even know how to play slow builds - that would be so boring.

I may be wrong, cause I play solo, so managing a team can take place during these recovery phases, but gosh... it's so not interactive when you are playing solo.

[Boeroer]

 

Yes, or simply remove this mechanic and regain the resource if the spell didn't go off and if it wasn't interrupted by enemies - because you already spend a ton of casting time for nothing and that's punishment enough I'd say.

Good news. It was a big complain during in-house testing as well. Yesterday during stream Josh confirmed that they will remove it and you will be able to move/change spell without loosing your resource.

 

Cool! Thanks Josh and colleagues! :highfive:

[Wormerine]

Lower recovery rates for player actions would be nice too...

It's not fun when optimized build to be fast acting in general is slow in game reality.

I don't even know how to play slow builds - that would be so boring.

I may be wrong, cause I play solo, so managing a team can take place during these recovery phases, but gosh... it's so not interactive when you are playing solo.

Ah! That’s interesting. I was wondering how people find time to watch their characters wait through recovery, with all the craziness that is happening. In solo runs it makes so much more sense. It reminds me of NWN1. I got stuck in a fight with spider where we couldn’t hit each other, so I went to make some tea while my character was swinging at the enemy occasionally hitting him. They were still swinging when I came back.