Combat too complex?

[FreeKaner]

 

 

 

I think PoE is fine on a basic level (having 60% hover over an enemy is way more readable to me than behind the scenes literal dice rolls) but when you try to understand its subtleties, it becomes very unaccessible. I still don't get how people achieve those insane DPS builds and how they find wizards to be underperforming. But then again, I thought I understand PoE system, and than dived into some of the thread here and I accepted that I know nothing.

 

To me that is a big minus. It shouldn't take an applied mathematics masters degree to figure out to make a fighter who is strong enough wielding the weapon of their choice to do massive damage and take damage, AKA either Minsc or Dorn. Or how to make a wizard on par with either Edwin or Dynaheir. This is a simplicity that doesn't even exist in PoE I. Not that you can't build them, but it is a simpler design in BG/D&D.

Well, but building a melee combat specialist who hits hard, and can take a lot of hits is still easy - favour strength, resolve and constitution. Same with casters - resolve will give you the biggest boom. But they will suffer in other areas. Why have attribute system at all, if your class defines what attributes you have to take? At this point you might tie attributes to classes and not allow players to distribute them at all.

 

A big boon of PoE system is that, like me, you can create character by your roleplaying desires and have him work fine, even on a hard difficulty. I will leave min-maxing to rocket engineers.

 

 

All I am going to say is I pretty much disagree with everything you've said there. I don't see how it is less roleplaying with a slightly dimwitted gorilla who loves his hamster. Seems the heart of roleplaying to me.

 

Joe

 

 

It means when there is only a single optimal path of stat distribution to any given class. Why do you have stat distribution at all since it's not a question of flexibility and roleplaying but rather a checklist you have to get? It makes no sense in a game where you do not roll for stats.

 

PoE aims, ideally with varying success, that the stats should have different impact that is useful asymmetrically, you use stats to build a character idea instead of aspiring to correct numbers to the required values. Meaning that you can make a fighter with high dexterity and high perception, and taking appropriate abilities on level up that you conceptualise as a more of a duellist or you can make a fighter that pumps strength and constitution completely as a heavy hitter who also can take a blow like Dorn. 

 

This means that there is no simple solution to stat distribution which makes it more complex but it provides also depth and variety, which I think is a good reason for its inherent complexity. This also means better roleplay elements because you can tailor your character to what you envision them as without necessarily striving from the optimal distribution. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by FreeKaner

[JFutral]

It means when there is only a single optimal path of stat distribution to any given class. Why do you have stat distribution at all since it's not a question of flexibility and roleplaying but rather a checklist you have to get? It makes no sense in a game where you do not roll for stats.

 

PoE aims, ideally with varying success, that the stats should have different impact that is useful asymmetrically, you use stats to build a character idea instead of aspiring to correct numbers to the required values. Meaning that you can make a fighter with high dexterity and high perception, and taking appropriate abilities on level up that you conceptualise as a more of a duellist or you can make a fighter that pumps strength and constitution completely as a heavy hitter who also can take a blow like Dorn. 

 

This means that there is no simple solution to stat distribution which makes it more complex but it provides also depth and variety, which I think is a good reason for its inherent complexity. This also means better roleplay elements because you can tailor your character to what you envision them as without necessarily striving from the optimal distribution. 

 

 

Again. I simply beg to differ.

 

And has nothing to do with my point. A Minsc or Dorn is a much easier, straight forward build in BG. It isn't impossible in PoE, but it is a more complex issue.

 

Joe

Edited February 14, 2018 by JFutral

[Wormerine]

 

 

 

All I am going to say is I pretty much disagree with everything you've said there. I don't see how it is less roleplaying with a slightly dimwitted gorilla who loves his hamster. Seems the heart of roleplaying to me.

 

Joe

Hmm... I am not really sure what you disagree with. It is not “less” of a roleplaying if you create Minsc like character, but other builds aren’t much on an option in D&D 2nd ed. Archers with medium/low dexterity, melee fighters with medium/low strength or wizards with medium/low intelligence are just wrong character choices. Game asks you to choose your sex (your preference), race (your preference) and class (your preference) and than asks you to distribute attributes but this time it’s a multiple choice with good and wrong answers - you either invest in few attr your class benefits from, or will have a bad time. Pillars tries to make this part of character creation also more of a choice. Especially important as in PoE your attributes had impact on conversations. You can distribute attributes as you would with Minsc in BG and you will still get more or less a similar character archetype.

[dukeisaac]

I'm a bit late to the party but I'd also like to say that I too am not enjoying the deadfire beta as much as I expected. I was also expecting that we would use POE 3.0 as a starting point upon which multiclassing and higher level gameplay would be added (with slight tweaks). While I was originally happy with the direction the game was taking (except a party of 5), I'm not convinced that the changes were worth it today. I still hope that its a balance issue and the right balance will be struck and I still believe I will thoroughly enjoy Deafire, but it seems that the game is so far a missed opportunity to really shine.

 

As for what jars me the most, others have explained it very well (see posts from Maxquest and Andrea Colombo specifically) but here is the run down : lack of transparency in combat mechanics, general game speed (casting and recovery vs movement speed), what do power levels and empower do, etc.

[Madscientist]

IE mechanics were mediocre the best. DnD any edition translates bad in computer games. Pillars is very clear as to how good you get with what when allocating attribute points, there's no doubt about that.

 

I think that correct.

 

I think that the IE games or NWN1+2 were good games despite DnD, not because of it.

I did not play PnP games, only computer RPGs. The rules for DnD ( or DSA or other PnP) are complicated. You should do lots of reading (or have a friend who knows the rules) before starting to play because there are tons of rules and restrictions for everything and it is very easy to make a bad choice. Many rules that seem strange or complicated in a computer game come from the fact that they were designed for PnP and you have to be able to play it with real dice. For example you can only have these dice numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solid

(4,6,8,12 or 20 sides, you can use multiple dice and half of the dice value) and you cannot use percents or other more complicated calculations. The game master and the players should not be math experts so its best to keep the numbers small and use only integers.

 

For computer games I prefer game mechanics that have been designed for computers, like PoE or Dragon Age:Origins.

It is true that the player cannot calculate the numbers anymore. But he does not need to do it, the computer does it for him.

Since the ability to calculate the result is no longer a restriction the devs can focus on creating rules that make sense instead of creating rules that must produce results by rolling real physical dice.

The importent thing is that the player can understand how an action influences the result.

 

examples from PoE1:

- You need to know that a talent that gives +10%damage has half the effect of a talent that gives +20%damage and that this % is relative to base damage. No need to calculate yourself.

- Increasing your acc by X raises your hit chance by x%, increasing a defence by x lowers your chance to get hit by x%

- Dex or items with +speed ability make you attack faster. No need to calculate things yourself and no restriction to use x attacks per round. (OK, except dex all things shorten only recovery and the formula is complicated, but using +speed items lowers the time between the attacks so it really does make you attack more often and thats all you need to know.)

 

The computer needs to tell you what each stat does. Based on this knowledge you select your char (stats, talents, equipment, items) and tell your char what to do and the computer does the rest.

Assuming the game explains well what each stat does there are only a few things left:

- You need to know what of these things stack. This can be complicated, but it is complicated for both PnP and computer games.

- You need a math expert like MaxQuest to fully understand the mechanics and calculate the optimized char. But as long as some rules of thumb are enough to create a good char this should not be a problem for most players.

[-dib-]

^ Initially read as factions too) But he meant fractions.Currently the initial damage roll has decimals. Maybe that's what he is referring too.

Indeed, I’m all for factions.

[FreeKaner]

 

It means when there is only a single optimal path of stat distribution to any given class. Why do you have stat distribution at all since it's not a question of flexibility and roleplaying but rather a checklist you have to get? It makes no sense in a game where you do not roll for stats.

 

PoE aims, ideally with varying success, that the stats should have different impact that is useful asymmetrically, you use stats to build a character idea instead of aspiring to correct numbers to the required values. Meaning that you can make a fighter with high dexterity and high perception, and taking appropriate abilities on level up that you conceptualise as a more of a duellist or you can make a fighter that pumps strength and constitution completely as a heavy hitter who also can take a blow like Dorn. 

 

This means that there is no simple solution to stat distribution which makes it more complex but it provides also depth and variety, which I think is a good reason for its inherent complexity. This also means better roleplay elements because you can tailor your character to what you envision them as without necessarily striving from the optimal distribution. 

 

 

Again. I simply beg to differ.

 

And has nothing to do with my point. A Minsc or Dorn is a much easier, straight forward build in BG. It isn't impossible in PoE, but it is a more complex issue.

 

Joe

 

 

It isn't complex at all, you pump 3 stats and ignore the rest in either case. You are literally complaining about having options here as opposed to your knowledge you acquired in D&D.

[Kaylon]

Maybe Ad&D had many rules but they were well documented and the game mechanics were simple to understand. On the other hand PoE has complicated game mechanics, the rules seem often arbitrary or not well documented and the items/abilities descriptions are often confusing or misleading. I had to test lots of items/abilities in PoE to see first if they work and if they do it like expected. Now it seems I'll have to do it again if I want to play PoE2...

Edited February 14, 2018 by Kaylon

[Archaven]

I been lurking around as i'm not a beta backer. Based on observations and feedback from backers on long recovery and slow casting time, initially it has me worried. I greatly enjoy PoE and it seems they have made things worst. I'm not sure if it's just the beta or it will be different when the full game release. Seems like i'm not eager to play Deadfire at all when it get released as i'm expecting the start of PoE 3.0 and not starting with 1.0. 

[morhilane]

So, a month and a half before release and after 3 beta patches we're not sure yet why so many dramatic changes to a previously working system. That's nice to hear...

 

We actually know why they were changes, most of them were explained prior to Deadfire beta starting. The thing is that after Beta 1 people complained and Obsidian reverted some of them which borked the systems even more.

 

The issue has always been (including early POE1): I die too fast/much, I can't do anything and I don't know why.

 

The first part, "I die too fast" is simple: your characters get demolished in a few seconds by enemies. This is mostly because your party is always outnumbered by enemies with lots of HP that hit like trucks (by the way, seems like Obsidian totally forgot that they tuned down encounter size in POE1 like 3 times post-release, removing one party member doesn't mean you can inflate encounter size again). Enemies and encounters are balanced as if the game was only played by min/maxers too (which is basically the only people bothering with the beta at this point from the looks of it, I personally stopped caring when Obsidian added grazing back in Beta 2 showing they were just reacting to player's demands instead of actually having a idea of what was wrong with their system).

 

The "I can't do anything" is because of the recovery system, which was made even slower in Beta 3. It requires too much timing and anticipation from the player to react to enemies attacks because everyone is acting on different sized rounds (recovery + action time) and the characters looks unresponsive while doing their idle recovery animation. Now though, the slower recovery in Beta 3 gives you a larger window to act (which is why I personally like it), but again Obsidian did a change and didn't bother tweaking everything around it (movement speed in combat is too fast for the recovery speed which is causing issues).

 

The "I don't know why" is just confusion caused by the other two elements. Looking at the log to see why the character died is not that hard but you won't be able to do much against it and recovery has an icon, but clearly players have no idea what it means and does...

[Boeroer]

Maybe Ad&D had many rules but they were well documented and the game mechanics were simple to understand. On the other hand PoE has complicated game mechanics, the rules seem often arbitrary or not well documented and the items/abilities descriptions are often confusing or misleading. I had to test lots of items/abilities in PoE to see first if they work and if they do it like expected. Now it seems I'll have to do it again if I want to play PoE2...

Exactly. One can browse through PoE's character builds subforum and discover the vast amount of stuff we all figured out with LOTS of testing and discussion. I believe most of it wasn't even known by the designers:

• Confident Aim being a multiplicatve damge boost since it raises min base damage
• how do lashes work
• how does the Wildstrike Belt work
• Iconic Projection, Thorny Roots and Brutal Takedown only have to overcome 1/4th DR
• what does stack and what not (buffs, debuffs, DoTs)
• how does wounding work compared to other DoT effects
• why is Marked Prey a lash effect?
• does the speed enchantment on weapons even work?
• Is "crit damage multiplier" really a multiplier?
• single weapon usage gives your inital attack +12 ACC, but not the second roll if you do something like Knockdown (1. attack +12 vs. defl., then+0 vs. fort.)
• Novice's Suffering, Transcendent Suffering and Long Pain gain ACC bonus via scaling, but that bonus is NOT applied to special attacks like Force of Anguish or Knockdown, only auto-attacks
• offensive abilites like Carnage, Knockdown, Blinding Strike, Minor Missiles and so on get +1 ACC per char level compared to auto-attacks
• it doesn't stop my head explodes

 

...stuff like that and TONS more. Nothing of it was documented. Newcomers had to come to the forum and ask the same question over and over again and we answered those questions while a simple official documentation could have done the work. Sure, that would lead to a less busy forum. Hey! Maybe that's why?

Edited February 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Enduin]

I've been enjoying the beta quite a bit since it came out. It felt off at first but since then I've gotten used to it and familiar with it's flow and mechanics and on top of the tweaks to things I've found it to be very satisfying to play and I'm now mostly positive about the changes and direction of things, but there's still a lot that can and needs to be done before release.

 

I think there is still a good deal of balancing/tweaking that still needs to be done, better transparency and communication of abilities and systems and some potential additional support systems that may be needed to further flesh out the players ability to effect certain things like Action Speeds and PEN/AR. Only a few things to me really are broken and need major reworkings like Stacking Rules, Weapon Proficiency/Modals and Empower. 

 

I don't think the combat is too complex as I don't think players need to easily understand and grasp the underlying maths that control everything. That's an issue for power gamers looking to min/max things and find the optimal classes and abilities. What the average player does need though is to be able to confidently know what X choice will mean for their character and combat. If they choose X ability at level up or apply Y buff in combat they need to know and be able to judge in broad terms how that's going effect their play. That I think right now is not super clear for some things. 

 

But overall I think things are working out. I'm not a power gamer, I like creating powerful and efficient characters, but I don't have the patience or determination to really min/max things. Since day 1 of the Beta I was able to use some basic educated guesses and create some really fun and effective MC characters without needed to crunch the numbers or really understand the nuances and fine details of all the systems. 

[JFutral]

 

 

It means when there is only a single optimal path of stat distribution to any given class. Why do you have stat distribution at all since it's not a question of flexibility and roleplaying but rather a checklist you have to get? It makes no sense in a game where you do not roll for stats.

 

PoE aims, ideally with varying success, that the stats should have different impact that is useful asymmetrically, you use stats to build a character idea instead of aspiring to correct numbers to the required values. Meaning that you can make a fighter with high dexterity and high perception, and taking appropriate abilities on level up that you conceptualise as a more of a duellist or you can make a fighter that pumps strength and constitution completely as a heavy hitter who also can take a blow like Dorn. 

 

This means that there is no simple solution to stat distribution which makes it more complex but it provides also depth and variety, which I think is a good reason for its inherent complexity. This also means better roleplay elements because you can tailor your character to what you envision them as without necessarily striving from the optimal distribution. 

 

 

Again. I simply beg to differ.

 

And has nothing to do with my point. A Minsc or Dorn is a much easier, straight forward build in BG. It isn't impossible in PoE, but it is a more complex issue.

 

Joe

 

 

It isn't complex at all, you pump 3 stats and ignore the rest in either case. You are literally complaining about having options here as opposed to your knowledge you acquired in D&D.

 

 

No it is not that simple because of how PoE has balanced out the dynamics of the stats, never mind you can't _just_ pump all three stats enough to get to a Dorn or Minsc character. First you have to Min/Max the stats, which is dicey if you aren't already familiar with how to counter balance for the mins. Then you have to select the right talents and skills and know the right gear to get at which points in the game, to build the right synergy.

 

I am not complaining about options. I can't tell if you are just being deliberately obtuse or not. The point is the options and inherent complexities of PoE don't make certain builds as clear cut as they are in BG/D&D.

 

To Wormerine's point, this is a deliberate move on Obsidian's part, the flattening of stats' dynamics, so it is difficult to build a bad character. But this also has the adverse effect on the ease to create characters like Minsc or Edwin.

 

You can prefer the Obsidian way if you want. I won't argue which is _better_. That's just a matter of taste, and in matters taste there is no dispute. But don't try to make out like PoE is either as easy as BG/D&D or maybe even easier or less complex than it is. It isn't.

 

In a real sense, Obsidian has made the complexities a non-issue to a certain degree for inexperienced players _because of_ the flattening of the stats' effects. I proved that at least to myself when I created a party with natural 10s across the board and could still complete at least the main story line.  But there is a material difference in an 18 stat between BG/D&D and PoE. That is unarguable, but I am sure you will find a way. So carry on. I've made my point and my peace.

 

Back to my OP, the complexities at the moment have made actually understanding what is going on in combat and why, difficult for even the most seasoned PoE veteran with no addition to enjoyability to the game. It has made combat more a slog than an exciting part of the game.

 

Joe

[Nail]

Would -1.5 second of all player recovery times do the combat more dynamic?

It's really not fun to stand and wait for new action for so long.

I miss time based games.

[Gfted1]

I wonder what its like for most brand new players. If you vets don't fully understand, are the new people hopelessly lost? Or perhaps being "new" with fresh eyes and zero expectations allows an organic understanding of PoE rules and systems? My guess is most new players don't even realize when something has gone sideways and can brute force the main path regardless of build, understanding of systems, or bugs. 

[Ancelor]

really so many things that are "fixed" while they were never broken...

I don't get it really

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I wonder what its like for most brand new players. If you vets don't fully understand, are the new people hopelessly lost? Or perhaps being "new" with fresh eyes and zero expectations allows an organic understanding of PoE rules and systems? My guess is most new players don't even realize when something has gone sideways and can brute force the main path regardless of build, understanding of systems, or bugs.

 

PoE is easy enough where my 16 year old cousin who has never played a RPG like PoE was able to do ok on normal with an unoptimized fighter using choices he thought were cool. PoE isn't particularly more hard to get than IE games and you could create a character like Minsc if you wanted (which you couldn't in BG because Minsc is too dumb to be a Ranger). There are certainly issues that are unintuitive, but it's easy enough to just roll a character and get through the game.

 

Deadfire on the other hand has a lot more traps in terms of stacking and takes too long to do anything.

[Madscientist]

Maybe Ad&D had many rules but they were well documented and the game mechanics were simple to understand. On the other hand PoE has complicated game mechanics, the rules seem often arbitrary or not well documented and the items/abilities descriptions are often confusing or misleading. I had to test lots of items/abilities in PoE to see first if they work and if they do it like expected. Now it seems I'll have to do it again if I want to play PoE2...

 

I agree that the games had many rules and they were well documented.

Baldurs gate (DnD), Realm of Arcadia (DSA) and other computer games came together with a rule book that had more than 100 pages full of text and tables. I admit that I was able to finish BG2 without reading everything, but reading it was really helpful. In Realm of Arcadia I gave up the first time and it was years later and after reading all this text that I was able to play and enjoy the game. (side note: The realm of arcadia trilogy is from 1991,1993 and 1995 and it uses the original PnP rules, but they were not able to include all the things from PnP to the computer game. That means 50% to 80% of the skills and spells were mostly or completely useless, from the remaining stuff most things were situational and only a few spells and skills were used ofter)

 

I have never played PnP, so I cannot say if the rules make sense and are easy to understand. For me it took a long time to understand what thcac0, saving throw or "spell x does 2d6 damage for characterlevel/2 rounds" mean.

 

When playing BG2 for the first time I knew nothing and I had to learn most things by lots of reading and trail and error.

When playing PoE for the first time I just started and everything felt natural and simple. I did not know all rules in detail but I knew enough to create a useful char, select useful talents and fight enemies with some strategy right from the start. But when starting PoE I was already playing computer or console RPGs for almost 20 years. While the IE games and PoE have different rules, playing the IE games (or similar games) for more than 10 years does help you a lot to understand a different game of the same genre.

 

This means I have no idea how a new players feel where PoE is the first large computer RPG they have ever played.

 

Do you think that they should deliver PoE together with a thick rule book full of text and tables like in the old times and you should spend a week of reading before you can actually start to play?

[Boeroer]

I wonder what its like for most brand new players. If you vets don't fully understand, are the new people hopelessly lost? Or perhaps being "new" with fresh eyes and zero expectations allows an organic understanding of PoE rules and systems? My guess is most new players don't even realize when something has gone sideways and can brute force the main path regardless of build, understanding of systems, or bugs. 

Yes, I guess most of the time they will have no clue what's really happening. Most likely they will just point with all party members on one enemy & klick attack while they will cast the occasional spell every now and then. But that was the same with PoE I guess. THing is that you start like this all over again even if you understood the mechanics of PoE. And that's a pity. 

 

But still: even though I already spend 180+ hours on the beta I'm still a bit lost from time to time in combat and think "Aw man, that was a stupid thing to do". And that's with 4700+ hours of PoE.  

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

 

Maybe Ad&D had many rules but they were well documented and the game mechanics were simple to understand. On the other hand PoE has complicated game mechanics, the rules seem often arbitrary or not well documented and the items/abilities descriptions are often confusing or misleading. I had to test lots of items/abilities in PoE to see first if they work and if they do it like expected. Now it seems I'll have to do it again if I want to play PoE2...

 

I agree that the games had many rules and they were well documented.

Baldurs gate (DnD), Realm of Arcadia (DSA) and other computer games came together with a rule book that had more than 100 pages full of text and tables. I admit that I was able to finish BG2 without reading everything, but reading it was really helpful. In Realm of Arcadia I gave up the first time and it was years later and after reading all this text that I was able to play and enjoy the game. (side note: The realm of arcadia trilogy is from 1991,1993 and 1995 and it uses the original PnP rules, but they were not able to include all the things from PnP to the computer game. That means 50% to 80% of the skills and spells were mostly or completely useless, from the remaining stuff most things were situational and only a few spells and skills were used ofter)

 

I have never played PnP, so I cannot say if the rules make sense and are easy to understand. For me it took a long time to understand what thcac0, saving throw or "spell x does 2d6 damage for characterlevel/2 rounds" mean.

 

When playing BG2 for the first time I knew nothing and I had to learn most things by lots of reading and trail and error.

When playing PoE for the first time I just started and everything felt natural and simple. I did not know all rules in detail but I knew enough to create a useful char, select useful talents and fight enemies with some strategy right from the start. But when starting PoE I was already playing computer or console RPGs for almost 20 years. While the IE games and PoE have different rules, playing the IE games (or similar games) for more than 10 years does help you a lot to understand a different game of the same genre.

 

This means I have no idea how a new players feel where PoE is the first large computer RPG they have ever played.

 

Do you think that they should deliver PoE together with a thick rule book full of text and tables like in the old times and you should spend a week of reading before you can actually start to play?

 

 

I woudn't mind a thick and accurate rule book full of texts and tables like in the old times and i certainly wouldn't need a week to read it. The tables are there for a quick look-up, not for prolonged studying.

[Archaven]

the way i see it in pillars is that there's no accurate rules. there could be changes to mechanics or rules if what they first introduced are broken balance-wise or disliked by the community. there are pro and cons as i see it. the pros are that they can be more flexible in terms of changing the mechanics and the cons is the designers not have a definite rule set in stone for the game.

[JFutral]

Most likely they will just point with all party members on one enemy & klick attack while they will cast the occasional spell every now and then. 

 

Wait. That's not how everyone plays this game?

 

Joe

Edited February 14, 2018 by JFutral

[JFutral]

Minsc is too dumb to be a Ranger)

Be kind, now. He suffered a head injury. Okay, probably MANY head injuries. To be fair, though, he always described himself more as a berserker than a (technical) ranger. Boo is likely the only thing holding him together.

 

Joe

Edited February 14, 2018 by JFutral

[JFutral]

I wonder what its like for most brand new players. If you vets don't fully understand, are the new people hopelessly lost? Or perhaps being "new" with fresh eyes and zero expectations allows an organic understanding of PoE rules and systems? My guess is most new players don't even realize when something has gone sideways and can brute force the main path regardless of build, understanding of systems, or bugs.

It all gets smoothed out in the fog of war. I imagine as long as they don't use a difficulty level of more than "Normal", they should be fine. PoE has a very forgiving difficulty spread.

 

Joe

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Minsc is too dumb to be a Ranger)

Be kind, now. He suffered a head injury. Okay, probably MANY head injuries. To be fair, though, he always described himself more as a berserker than a (technical) ranger. Boo is likely the only thing holding him together. Joe

Well there's more cases than Minsc of "illegal" characters, like Aerie for instance. This is more due to the 2e rules being utterly insane and having very weird restrictions placed for arbitrary reasons. 3e and PoE opened things up a lot, but PoE did a better job in making stats matter for all classes even if Resolve was just as useless as Charisma.