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Writers can intentionally leave some ends unfinished like Dragon Age Inquisition. Conclude the main story but leave some character conclusions or some minor yet important stuff unfinished for an obvious expansion. Pillars 1 was designed from the begining to not have an expansion such as that but I believe more people would be interested to play something that ties up the lose ends of the base game ending rather than having to replay the whole thing.

Didn't play Inquisition so can't comment, but leaving character arcs unfinished sounds like a horrible idea. There could be some minor side stories continued (I think New Vegas did a great job teasing sidestories, which would be delved into deeper), but again, I would rather do it as a side content within a game than have "tying leftover threads" expansion. 

 

I do prefer when base game feels complete. While extra content is welcome, it shouldn't feel like part of a game was chopped off and sold seperately. As good as "Shadow Broker" DLC was for Mass Effect 2, the obviously missing Liara's interaction in base game left a bitter taste in me mouth. 

 

I think you have played Dragon Age Origins if I remeber correctly. Think of that game's expansion as an idea. You get a complete story ending but you can expand upon. And some characters that might have something more to do after finish (like Morrigan and her baby) can be adressed in the expansion. Something like that.

Now if they plan to do 3 dlc they might fit both expansion types and it'll be ever better.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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I think Fergus said somewhere that White March sales didn't cover the production costs. I think most people can agree that it's not the quality of the White March content that's the issue. So even if I and many others loves it, Obsidian needs to adjust their strategy to keep the business afloat.

It makes me really sad hearing this (I had no idea), I really liked the White March. The Devil of Caroc was probably my favorite companion.

 

The whole production was really high quality. They even changed the main campaign for it. Even the base game has some reactivity for playing the White March. I did not expect that.

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White March was really good. I have to agree with the concensus that it didnt do well because it wasnt end game content. By that I mean it was designed to be started mid-game even though you could scale it and I think people really wanted to keep playing (and adding to) there higher leveled character. Not that the main story needed to be continued to have more end game geared expansion, just a thought.

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I think the big problem is that WM was separated in two expansions. No one bought WM2, if they did not play first part. But if you bought the first part, there is a good chance you did not buy the second part. Maybe you just forgot/did not finish first part yet/disliked first part.

 

Which means the already small pool of people who would consider buying second part, got only smaller and not bigger.

 

And if you wanted to buy the whole expansion, then you had to consider that it's a 30 euro investment. And for what? Content which is a bit better than main game? That is not exactly convincing, especially considering the fact that many people did not play PoE to the end. Adding more content for (relatively) high price is not going to be enticing to them.

 

Something smaller, snappier and maybe with cooler features is more likely to draw people in. 10 Euro DLCs with maybe 10 hour content could be much more appealing, especially if it's well polished and has a cool premise. (Another thing White March did not do well: it was nothing to blow someone's socks off. You only find out about really cool gods related lore in second part and before it was pretty much "oh hey, here are some sidequests, go clear out some dungeons".)

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Why wasn't White March end game content? While the story was quite good, I felt the initial motive for the watcher to put aside the current, far more personal and pressing mission so that they could journey into the mountains on the off chance that they can open the battery, a slight stretch.
It probably would have made more sense story wise if it had been end game content.

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Obsidian needs to do more of a season pass thing, so you buy into all the DLC/Expansion content.

 

I see that that is already happening more or less with the Obsidian edition. But as a separate purchase it should just all be bundled. I'm sure some people would rather pick and choose, but amortizing out the cost is a better way to justify making additional content.

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I agree that the placement of White March in the story was awkward, for all the reasons listed. It was similar to Tales of the Sword Coast this way. Personally, I also found the difficulty to be very severe, when I first played it. Later on I managed to blaze through it with an optimized party, but as a more casual player, unfamiliar with proper tactics? I got mulched.

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I think the big problem is that WM was separated in two expansions. No one bought WM2, if they did not play first part. But if you bought the first part, there is a good chance you did not buy the second part. Maybe you just forgot/did not finish first part yet/disliked first part.

 

Which means the already small pool of people who would consider buying second part, got only smaller and not bigger.

 

And if you wanted to buy the whole expansion, then you had to consider that it's a 30 euro investment. And for what? Content which is a bit better than main game? That is not exactly convincing, especially considering the fact that many people did not play PoE to the end. Adding more content for (relatively) high price is not going to be enticing to them.

 

Something smaller, snappier and maybe with cooler features is more likely to draw people in. 10 Euro DLCs with maybe 10 hour content could be much more appealing, especially if it's well polished and has a cool premise. (Another thing White March did not do well: it was nothing to blow someone's socks off. You only find out about really cool gods related lore in second part and before it was pretty much "oh hey, here are some sidequests, go clear out some dungeons".)

Not that smaller dlc cant be good. I always find that I like the meatier dlc/expansions better. Its more fun when you get a bunch of extra content to dive into.

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Obsidian needs to do more of a season pass thing, so you buy into all the DLC/Expansion content.

 

I see that that is already happening more or less with the Obsidian edition. But as a separate purchase it should just all be bundled. I'm sure some people would rather pick and choose, but amortizing out the cost is a better way to justify making additional content.

That's literally what I did. I bought the game and the season pass. So I don't know what you are missing.

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Obsidian needs to do more of a season pass thing, so you buy into all the DLC/Expansion content.

 

I see that that is already happening more or less with the Obsidian edition. But as a separate purchase it should just all be bundled. I'm sure some people would rather pick and choose, but amortizing out the cost is a better way to justify making additional content.

That's literally what I did. I bought the game and the season pass. So I don't know what you are missing.

 

 

K. I just didn't know it was a thing because I backed with digital deluxe + expansions as an add on. Didn't know there was a season pass for dlc.

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I think the big problem is that WM was separated in two expansions. No one bought WM2, if they did not play first part. But if you bought the first part, there is a good chance you did not buy the second part. Maybe you just forgot/did not finish first part yet/disliked first part.

 

Which means the already small pool of people who would consider buying second part, got only smaller and not bigger.

 

And if you wanted to buy the whole expansion, then you had to consider that it's a 30 euro investment. And for what? Content which is a bit better than main game? That is not exactly convincing, especially considering the fact that many people did not play PoE to the end. Adding more content for (relatively) high price is not going to be enticing to them.

 

Something smaller, snappier and maybe with cooler features is more likely to draw people in. 10 Euro DLCs with maybe 10 hour content could be much more appealing, especially if it's well polished and has a cool premise. (Another thing White March did not do well: it was nothing to blow someone's socks off. You only find out about really cool gods related lore in second part and before it was pretty much "oh hey, here are some sidequests, go clear out some dungeons".)

Not that smaller dlc cant be good. I always find that I like the meatier dlc/expansions better. Its more fun when you get a bunch of extra content to dive into.

 

Well, when I play my favorite game I am always up for as much content as I can get. But when you make a DLC for a 60 hours game, you have to be aware that simply adding more content is not going to appeal to many people. If people considered playing through PoE a slog, simply because there was too much content, then they will not be interested in an DLC unless it got 1. cool concept and 2. is short enough to be finished in one or two sittings.

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Well, when I play my favorite game I am always up for as much content as I can get. But when you make a DLC for a 60 hours game, you have to be aware that simply adding more content is not going to appeal to many people. If people considered playing through PoE a slog, simply because there was too much content, then they will not be interested in an DLC unless it got 1. cool concept and 2. is short enough to be finished in one or two sittings.

...how do you make RPG work in one or two sittings? I just don’t see it work with that type of game. All things which make topdown cRPG bloom require time, whenever it’s story or mechanics. I can see DLC being used to provide different game experience (add roguelike dungeon or challenge modes etc.) but I am not sure they would sell to those who bought the game in a first place.

 

But I am bias as I know I just don’t enjoy smaller DLC. Xcom2 had great smaller DLC and yet they didn’t work for me until big expansion came out and rebalanced everything and properly integrated those smaller DLC into the game. Before they felt too taped on. One evening extra story like Deus Ex:HD or DA:O just feels like a waste of time, not telling interesting story nor providing interesting gameplay. To me big expansion is always a better sell, whenever I liked the game or am willing to give it another go.

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Hey, focus, this thread isn't about WM.  I'm interested in dlc I paid 20 dollars. I own only digital download and dlc, so I very much interested what content I will get.

Cough, cough. You payed money to help devs develop the game. Crowdfunding is not preordering. If treated as such, it’s a horrible proposition paying money for a product, which hasn’t been made and no one know if it’s going to be any good.

 

You got your answer about the DLC already - for additional $20 pledge you get access to three expansions combined worth $30. It’s all we know. I imagine at this point Obs knows what they are planning and maybe some early work started, if some of the folks are done with base game but I wouldn’t expect to hear anything more until after the game releases. As its at concept stage at best, it wouldn’t be smart to release too much information.

 

White March is the basis of speculation on what expansion could look like - it also fits their previous M.O. with New Vegas. Using that as a jumping point is a way of discussing what we can expect & would like/wouldn’t like to see with DLC for Deadfire.

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Well, when I play my favorite game I am always up for as much content as I can get. But when you make a DLC for a 60 hours game, you have to be aware that simply adding more content is not going to appeal to many people. If people considered playing through PoE a slog, simply because there was too much content, then they will not be interested in an DLC unless it got 1. cool concept and 2. is short enough to be finished in one or two sittings.

...how do you make RPG work in one or two sittings? I just don’t see it work with that type of game. All things which make topdown cRPG bloom require time, whenever it’s story or mechanics. I can see DLC being used to provide different game experience (add roguelike dungeon or challenge modes etc.) but I am not sure they would sell to those who bought the game in a first place.

 

But I am bias as I know I just don’t enjoy smaller DLC. Xcom2 had great smaller DLC and yet they didn’t work for me until big expansion came out and rebalanced everything and properly integrated those smaller DLC into the game. Before they felt too taped on. One evening extra story like Deus Ex:HD or DA:O just feels like a waste of time, not telling interesting story nor providing interesting gameplay. To me big expansion is always a better sell, whenever I liked the game or am willing to give it another go.

 

I finished first part of WM in 15 hours. About 5 hours were side quests. So if a DLC is 10 hours long it's quite possible to play it through in one weekend.

 

And F:NV DLCs were actually relatively small in scope. It was always only one fairly linear storyline in one game location. So I imagine Deadfire DLCs to be something like that too.

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I finished first part of WM in 15 hours. About 5 hours were side quests. So if a DLC is 10 hours long it's quite possible to play it through in one weekend.

 

 

And F:NV DLCs were actually relatively small in scope. It was always only one fairly linear storyline in one game location. So I imagine Deadfire DLCs to be something like that too.

Yeah, but than you wouldn't have all the WM sidequests which gave life to the town! Hunting werewolf, exploring mines, helping drunk get his drink, helping/dooming orlan. You could do just main story, but it wouldn't make for a better content IMO.

 

That's.... not how I remember NV DLC, though I didn't play it with watch in hand. Old World Blues felt fairly big. That's the one I remember liking the most. There was "survival horror" one, which was a neat idea, but didn't really work out that well.

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I'll say that I would be very disappointed if all there was to a DLC was one single major quest with no sidequests, however small they may be, to accompany it. As Wormerine says, the many other conflicts lend the locations a lot more personality, but what's more, it's through these many quests and through your choices and interactions in them that you are able to further define and role-play your character as you wish or picture him to be. In the better RPGs, like Pillars of Eternity and its expansions, the sidequests are not merely side content but explorations into new and different facets to the themes, setting and characters, and that's what makes the experience so rich at the end of the day.

 

Of course, if the DLC happens to be more streamlined and still features a single great quest, maybe in time I'll learn to appreciate that. But I know that at least initially I will be disappointed if all there'll be for that DLC is that one quest and no other new side-content to explore. But I don't think that's what Obsidian have aimed for so far anyhow and I don't really see it changing for Deadfire either, so I'm not particularly worried.

Edited by algroth
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I finished first part of WM in 15 hours. About 5 hours were side quests. So if a DLC is 10 hours long it's quite possible to play it through in one weekend.

 

 

And F:NV DLCs were actually relatively small in scope. It was always only one fairly linear storyline in one game location. So I imagine Deadfire DLCs to be something like that too.

Yeah, but than you wouldn't have all the WM sidequests which gave life to the town! Hunting werewolf, exploring mines, helping drunk get his drink, helping/dooming orlan. You could do just main story, but it wouldn't make for a better content IMO.

 

That's.... not how I remember NV DLC, though I didn't play it with watch in hand. Old World Blues felt fairly big. That's the one I remember liking the most. There was "survival horror" one, which was a neat idea, but didn't really work out that well.

 

That is the thing: WM offers just a new content hub. And that is not particularly exciting. Consider F:NV, there you either get to chat with a former confidante of Cesar, or maybe you can destroy half the wasteland, or you end up in a dungeon full of AIs in toasters and switches. Or maybe you do a casino heist! 

 

That's snappy and has a single focused idea. WM is a little... unfocused, especially at the beginning. You find out very little about the main plot of the expansion in first part, you only hunt after a red herring. Unfortunately, WIM 1 was pretty much just filler. It was still well made, but nothing to really hype-worthy.

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That is the thing: WM offers just a new content hub. And that is not particularly exciting. Consider F:NV, there you either get to chat with a former confidante of Cesar, or maybe you can destroy half the wasteland, or you end up in a dungeon full of AIs in toasters and switches. Or maybe you do a casino heist! 

 

That's snappy and has a single focused idea. WM is a little... unfocused, especially at the beginning. You find out very little about the main plot of the expansion in first part, you only hunt after a red herring. Unfortunately, WIM 1 was pretty much just filler. It was still well made, but nothing to really hype-worthy.

I think I get what you mean, though - as expected - I disagree. WM isn’t an instantly marketable pitch. It’s not tied to any major subplots of main game (or at least it doesn’t reveal itself quickly as it’s really closely tied to themes of base games) the game doesn’t promise you something super wacky like, let’s say, wonderful Witcher3 expansions. But WM1 is not a filler and there is no red herring. It’s a build up to a second part. I found Stalwart to be engaging and best realised location in the game. Yeah it was a sad place, but characters were engaging enough to care about their conflict. The quest didn’t surprise in WM2 but laid foundation for WM2. Perhaps it was a mistake in releasing them in two seperate purchases - but cutting or shortening WM1 would make the story much weaker. RPGs is as much about plot and action as it is about sense of place. Stalwart was a place with history, people and future. More so than any other community in PoE so far.

 

But yeah, “help dying town reclaim long lost forge” doesn’t sell it well.

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Haven't Obsidian already said that they are going to be having the DLC set after the main story this time around as well?

 

 

 

 

(also random question, but does anyone else have the problem on this site where when you publish a post it just goes completely blank? As I have to manually edit the post and retype everything i put in.)

Edited by Naesaki
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Haven't Obsidian already said that they are going to be having the DLC set after the main story this time around as well?

 

Yes, they said this during one of the Fig streams, which is why I got the DLC. Hopefully, they didn't change their plans...

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Haven't Obsidian already said that they are going to be having the DLC set after the main story this time around as well?

 

 

Yes, they said this during one of the Fig streams, which is why I got the DLC. Hopefully, they didn't change their plans...

Hmm... I have skimmed through all the streams and the only thing I could find in reference to DLCs is Josh acknowledging a comment that White that Wends or Naasitaq would make for cool expansion locations. I have been using transcripts for search though, so I might have missed something.

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Haven't Obsidian already said that they are going to be having the DLC set after the main story this time around as well?

I don't recall them saying anything specific about DLC so far. 

 

 

Is difficult for devs to give us some light about DLCs at this moment?

 

I think one of them could have the courtesy of explain this.

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