The Political Quinceañera Thread

[Malcador]

How is it supposed to be a deterrent anyway it it's concealed.

I guess you assume everyone is armed.

[Guard Dog]

,,,,,,  http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article201589004.html

[Valsuelm]

Yes, let us honor our veterans by giving them low paying yard duty jobs at the huge number of schools we have across the country. *skeptical*

 

There's already a number of schools throughout the nation that have police officers working most or all of their day there. A complete waste of taxpayer money at the very least in most cases, but these folks are very well paid, and generally have very cushy jobs. They occasionally get off their butt to taze a kid or two who might have mouthed off to them, but other than that they sit around a lot. One such school is my old high school. Fortunately for me, I went there before the police state era and the likes of 'no child left behind / communism core' insanity thoroughly engulfed the school.

 

The extreme reaction to school shootings have been around a long time, since the post Columbine era.

[Ben No.3]

Ben f it wasn't for bad luck you'd have none at all! No sooner do you get your license this happens: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/emissions-violations-have-german-cities-facing-driving-bans-a-1194269.html

Honestly, I feel like car free inner cities is a great idea, even if difficult to implement at first

[Lexx]

It would be a great idea if public transportation in these zones would be revolutionized... but it will not be. Prices still go up, timetables are worth crap, every vehicle is crammed full, ... list is so long.

 

Honestly, it drives me mad how politicians can wonder about the increased private car use in our cities when at the same time using public transportation becomes even more unattractive as it already is.

 

Heck, couple years ago you'd pay 65€ for a month ticket here. Today it is about 89€, bus and train drivers are on strike at least once per year for a month, and all in all everything is just garbage.

 

It is just not worth the hassle.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Lexx

[Malcador]

So there was a cop outside when the shooting was ongoing but he didn't go in.

[Guard Dog]

Yeah I've been wondering about that. In Florida there is a department in every county Sheriff for school resource. Basically a uniformed deputy assigned to every school. The job is a mix of law enforcement and community relations but it's been a successful program. I wondered where that deputy was. Apparently he was outside and did not go in.

 

Cowardice is an ugly word and I hate to throw it around. But is certainly sounds like it's appropriate: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html

 

The whole thing about "the good guy with the gun" only works when the good guy is there and has the guts to do what must be done.

[Guard Dog]

 

So there was a cop outside when the shooting was ongoing but he didn't go in.

 

So the government says give up your arms, we will protect you...

 

I'd like this twice if I could

[Gorgon]

So, there was someone there with a gun and it didn't help.

[Malcador]

Yeah I've been wondering about that. In Florida there is a department in every county Sheriff for school resource. Basically a uniformed deputy assigned to every school. The job is a mix of law enforcement and community relations but it's been a successful program. I wondered where that deputy was. Apparently he was outside and did not go in.

 

Cowardice is an ugly word and I hate to throw it around. But is certainly sounds like it's appropriate: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html

 

The whole thing about "the good guy with the gun" only works when the good guy is there and has the guts to do what must be done.

 

Would be interesting to hear the reasons why he didn't go in, is it protocol to go in alone ?  Pretty daunting situation to go into a building with an unknown number of shooters, so wonder what was said when he was on the radio.  

 

Wonder who you want to be good guys with guns in this circumstance ? Can't be students (kind of is the problem ).  Definitely would have the same problem with outsiders near the school intervening as with the deputy.

[Guard Dog]

One of the things I absolutely HATE about the police in this country is the pseudo-military trappings they have adopted over the years. In both uniform, ceremony, and action. The average cop is not fit to stand in the shadow of the average Marine, soldier, sailor, or airman. In the military the accomplishment of the mission is foremost. Even over the lives of the people doing it. In the military you are always ready, always on duty (so to speak). You are a Marine, Soldier, etc 24x7. The police are doing a job on a shift that ends. Their focus is going home at the shift end. That isn't a criticism, it's just how it is.

[Guard Dog]

Malc, if YOU were there, pistol in hand, would you have gone in? I think I would have. I hope I would have. If I could trade my life right now and bring those 17 kids and teachers back I'd do it without hesitation. I think a lot of people would.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Elerond]

 

Yes, let us honor our veterans by giving them low paying yard duty jobs at the huge number of schools we have across the country. *skeptical*

 

There's already a number of schools throughout the nation that have police officers working most or all of their day there. A complete waste of taxpayer money at the very least in most cases, but these folks are very well paid, and generally have very cushy jobs. They occasionally get off their butt to taze a kid or two who might have mouthed off to them, but other than that they sit around a lot. One such school is my old high school. Fortunately for me, I went there before the police state era and the likes of 'no child left behind / communism core' insanity thoroughly engulfed the school.

 

The extreme reaction to school shootings have been around a long time, since the post Columbine era.

 

 

Parkland for example was one of those schools that had police officer working there all day, and then when it come to time to stop bad guy with gun he decided not to risk his life to prevent said bad guy from killing students he was there to protect.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/02/22/armed-sheriffs-deputy-stayed-outside-florida-school-while-mass-killing-took-place/?utm_term=.6fc6f24f40aa

 

 

Armed sheriff's deputy stayed outside Florida school while mass killing took place

 

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — The armed school resource officer assigned to protect students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School took a defensive position outside the school and did not enter the building while the shooter was killing students and teachers inside with an AR-15 assault-style rifle, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said Thursday.

Israel said he suspended School Resource Deputy Scot Peterson on Thursday after seeing a video from the Parkland, Fla., school that showed Peterson outside the school building where the shooter was inside and attacking.

“What I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of Building 12, take up a position, and never went in,” Israel said.

 

He said Peterson was armed, and was in uniform, and should have gone into the building during the 6-minute event, which left 17 people, most of them teenagers, dead. When asked what the deputy should have done, Israel said: “Went in and addressed the killer. Killed the killer.”

 

Peterson, 54, a resource officer at the school since 2009, resigned after Israel suspended him. Israel said two other officers have been placed on a restricted assignment pending an internal investigation relating the school shooting.

 

They could have done more, they should have done more,” Israel said. “It’s a fluid investigation. They are on restrictive duty.”

Attempts to reach Peterson on Thursday were unsuccessful. Paperwork released by the sheriff’s office showed that Peterson, hired in July 1985, signed his retirement paperwork on Thursday afternoon.

Israel said that Peterson was in an office dealing with a school-related issue when the first shots were fired on Feb. 14 and that he got on his radio and then moved toward the outside of the building where the shooting was taking place. When asked what he is seen doing on the video, Israel replied: “Nothing.”

“I think he took up a position where it looked like he could see the western-most entry into the building and stayed where he was,” Israel said. “Never went in.”

 

Israel said he “clearly” knew there was a shooter inside, something that made him “sick to my stomach.”

 

“There are no words,” Israel said. “These families lost their children. We lost coaches. I’ve been to the funerals. I’ve been to the homes where they’re sitting shiva. I’ve been to the vigils. It’s just, there are no words.”

 

The revelation about the deputy comes as law enforcement officials and authorities have faced intense criticism for whether they missed previous chances to prevent the massacre. The FBI was warned last month about the alleged shooter’s potential for violence at a school, but failed to investigate that tip, while school officials, social services investigators and the sheriff’s office had multiple encounters or troubling warnings about him over the years.

Israel’s description of Peterson as an armed, trained officer who was present for a mass killing but did not confront the shooter also comes as President Trump, in response to the Parkland massacre, has suggested arming teachers as a way to deter possible threats, while the National Rifle Association has also pushed for more armed guards in schools.

Trump has frequently suggested in response to mass shootings that more law-abiding people with firearms could help stop a shooter and the head of the NRA has repeatedly suggested the same. However, Israel’s announcement Thursday suggested that even if a person is armed, trained and available to help, that may not stop a mass killing that unfolds in a matter of minutes.

 

The deputy’s decision to remain outside breaks with police tactics for responding to active-shooting incidents. Ever since the 1999 attack at Colorado’s Columbine High School, authorities have emphasized the importance of pursuing the attacker or attackers quickly in an effort to eliminate the threat and prevent additional deaths.

“Columbine resulted in new approaches in which patrol officers are being trained to respond to active shooters as quickly as possible,” the Police Executive Research Forum, a think tank backed by major-cities chiefs, wrote in a 2014 report.

 

Of course, this approach brings with it inherent issues, the report continued, because “a faster response is more dangerous to responding officers. Patrol officers who quickly move to confront an active shooter face a high likelihood of being shot themselves.”

Officers involved in responding to these shootings have later described the terror they felt. A report released by the Justice Department after the San Bernardino, Calif., terror attack quoted an officer who described checking room after room in the conference center where the shooting occurred, expecting to find the shooters behind the final doors.

 

“I don’t want to say I made peace, but I was ready to go,” the officer said. “We got into one room, and it was empty. We had a quick breath, and in we went to the last room. I was never so excited to not see anybody.”

Reviews like that Justice Department study are regularly conducted after mass shootings, allowing officials to study how officers responded in order to determine what others can improve upon. Following the shooting rampages at the Washington Navy Yard, a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., and the Virginia Tech campus, authorities reviewed what they did and sought ways to improve future responses.

Peterson is mentioned as part of a 2016 social services agency investigation into Nikolas Cruz, the 19-year-old identified by police as the gunman. According to a Florida Department of Children and Families report detailing that investigation, Peterson was approached by investigators and “refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with” the teenager.

That same year, the sheriff’s office revealed Thursday, it was told about “third hand information” from a “neighbor’s son” suggesting that Cruz “planned to shoot up the school,” although the specific school was not listed. The sheriff’s office said a deputy contacted the caller, determined that Cruz had knives and a BB gun and sent the information to the school resource officer — presumably Peterson. It is unclear whether he investigated.

[Malcador]

One of the things I absolutely HATE about the police in this country is the pseudo-military trappings they have adopted over the years. In both uniform, ceremony, and action. The average cop is not fit to stand in the shadow of the average Marine, soldier, sailor, or airman. In the military the accomplishment of the mission is foremost. Even over the lives of the people doing it. In the military you are always ready, always on duty (so to speak). You are a Marine, Soldier, etc 24x7. The police are doing a job on a shift that ends. Their focus is going home at the shift end. That isn't a criticism, it's just how it is.

Pretty much, this cop was old though so maybe he's not like the guys that think all cops need shaven skulls and raybans

 

 

 

Malc, if YOU were there, pistol in hand, would you have gone in? I think I would have. I hope I would have. If I could trade my life right not and bring those 17 kids and teachers back I'd do it without hesitation. I think a lot of people would.

 

While I honestly would like to think I would, maybe not - is amazing how a second's hesitation can end up with a minute's inaction.  Pretty sure everyone would want to be the hero that saves people's lives - though you're not going to save everyone as you're reacting to gunfire.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Malcador

[Elerond]

 

One of the things I absolutely HATE about the police in this country is the pseudo-military trappings they have adopted over the years. In both uniform, ceremony, and action. The average cop is not fit to stand in the shadow of the average Marine, soldier, sailor, or airman. In the military the accomplishment of the mission is foremost. Even over the lives of the people doing it. In the military you are always ready, always on duty (so to speak). You are a Marine, Soldier, etc 24x7. The police are doing a job on a shift that ends. Their focus is going home at the shift end. That isn't a criticism, it's just how it is.

Pretty much, this cop was old though so maybe he's not like the guys that think all cops need shaven skulls and raybans

 

 

 

Malc, if YOU were there, pistol in hand, would you have gone in? I think I would have. I hope I would have. If I could trade my life right not and bring those 17 kids and teachers back I'd do it without hesitation. I think a lot of people would.

 

While I honestly would like to think I would, maybe not - is amazing how a second's hesitation can end up with a minute's inaction.  Pretty sure everyone would want to be the hero that saves people's lives - though you're not going to save everyone as you're reacting to gunfire.

 

 

And when you consider that incident lasted only six minutes, there really is no time for inaction if you want to try prevent them. 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Elerond

[Guard Dog]

I don't think being the hero is the motivation. I think it would be more about doing what must be done.

[Malcador]

I don't think being the hero is the motivation. I think it would be more about doing what must be done.

 

You have a more noble view of your fellow man, than I do, then. 

[Gfted1]

I don't actually know anyone who has ever been shot at. Coincidence?

Maybe they are all packing heat?

[Gromnir]

 

How is it supposed to be a deterrent anyway it it's concealed.

I guess you assume everyone is armed.

 

 

and people wonder why the cops in this country seem so excitable.  

 

from our pov, the gun issue is all reversed and inverted. sure, ar-15s and ak-47s get all the press 'cause o' mass shootings, but handguns result in far more needless deaths due to accident, stoopidity, rage, whatever.  guns is okie dokie for maintaining a militia, so from our pov, limit handguns, but not semi-auto or bolt action rifles.  would have far fewer deaths and cops would be less jumpy 'cause ain't as if any motorist or angry pedestrian could have a gun in his coat.  am also in favor o' limiting large magazines and bumpstocks and similar nonsense.  hell, most o' our nra friends is perplexed by why bumpstocks weren't addressed by the atf or Congress immediate following vegas.  most gun folks we knew genuine weren't aware o' bumpstocks.  "of course automatic weapons should be illegal; they already are," were a familiar refrain from nra folks pre-vegas. most nra honks we know is fine with magazine limits and bumpstock prohibitions.

 

convenience and accessibility is what makes handguns the real threat to people in this country, even if rifles get all the press.  fear the government, then rifles make more sense.  fear foreign invaders or indian massacres as were the fears o' founding fathers and rifles make more sense. want militia, then rifles make more sense.  wanna reduce stoopid homicides and suicides (which actual vast outnumber murders,) then rifles makes more sense as the firearm deserving protections.  a rifle is not so much an impulse weapon as is a handgun, and is gonna be making life less scary for cops to rid handguns and keep the rifles. 

 

is an impractical solution.  would never fly in this country, and there is constitutional issues, but rifles>handguns makes more sense... at least to Gromnir.  is all backwards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blarghagh]

 

I hear you

 

**double checks notes**

 

Yeah, I hear you. Bigly.

Oh, wow. He had notes, how wierd. Anyone ever seen anybody with notes on a meeting? Crazy. Impeach!

Either for a) having notes or b) not using them. Doesn't matter. Impeach!

 

 

I don't think anybody begrudges people bringing notes, it's just the contents read a bit like "the zognoid field guide to basic human empathy"

[Blarghagh]

Wait, hold up, I just read there was actually an armed resource officer stationed at the school the shooting took place, and he did nothing nor deterred it from happening? Then what the hell are guns good for?

[Gromnir]

Wait, hold up, I just read there was actually an armed resource officer stationed at the school the shooting took place, and he did nothing nor deterred it from happening? Then what the hell are guns good for?

random grizzly attacks.  guns don't kill people. grizzlies kill people.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

Trump calls cop coward.

 

Aaaaaannnnnnnd the cop has already "retired".

[Raithe]

[Raithe]

 

My brother and sister in law both have concealed carry permits and have never been shot at. Coincidence?

I don't actually know anyone who has ever been shot at. Coincidence?

 

 

I actually have been shot at. By people with slingshots.

 

Hm, oh, I did have some form of AK-47 knock-off pointed at me once, but I was in Egypt at the time. And about 13. And climbing a pyramid. Which is apparently a no-no.