Chanter Subclasses Discussion

[Heijoushin]

What do you chaps think of the Chanter subclasses? 

 

Beckoner: I'm really excited to play with this guy, because I think a Beckoner/wizard would make a sweet "necromancer" type character. But why, oh why does a summoning specialist get a bonus and a penalty to summons? Most of the other classes get a penalty that's directly opposite to their specialty. Did they think faster summons would be too OP? 

 

Skald: This is supposed to be the melee based Chanter, but does he get enough to make him a melee specialist? I suppose he would work if combined with a rogue or fighter, but I'm not sure how appealing a single class Skald would be. 

 

Troubadour: This is the singer/support Chanter, but... I dunno, seems kind of boring to me. I wish instruments had made it into the game (as a unique trinket for Chanters), so the Troubadour could get some unique bonuses from them. 

[Boeroer]

The Skald and Beckoner are pretty powerful. The single class Skald gets Killers Froze Stiff pretty early and because of the reduced casting cost he can actually start with a cast of Killers and then go in and crit the heck out of everyone he's paralyzed. Also works great in multiclass with any melee class that either speeds him up (monk with Swift Strikes and Swift Flurry) or grants him melee crit conversion (Berserker, Rogue, fighter).

 

Beckoner is the perfect body blocker. Actually it's too good I think. I didn't try the Ancient Brittle Bones with a Beckoner in the new beta version . In the first one Brittle Bones didn't work. But just imagine having 6 Skeletons on the map... They said in one of the recent vids that they will have to nerf him because he's just too good. So they probably did that.

[Heijoushin]

As always Boeroer, you give good advice. Just tried a Assassin/Skald with a Great Sword + maxed Str and Per. Knocked the first Langufaeth for 240 damage crit (I think the highest damage I've scored in Deadfire so far). Then froze the rest with Killers Froze Stiff and took them out at my leisure. Paralyze isn't as ridiculously strong as in PoE1, but it's still extremely powerful.

 

Man, Chanters get all the cool toys. Poor wizards. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Heijoushin

[theBalthazar]

All the good things have disapeared.

 

25 % burn danage on all the team ? = 20 % now.

Dragon thrashed ? = Poop now.

 

But now the spell of paralyse is very good. Will be a good support the day when dragon thrashed will be better. (actually buggued or what ?...)

 

Beckoner : 10 seconds + Recent Nerf. Absolutely not OP compared to good combination of melee. I dislike this subclass now. 6 seconds of cast seems to be more realistic in the course of the fight.

 

Skald : Surely the best, if we weave around the paralysis. Strange thing : this is only with melee attack. Not ranged and not offensive spells. Like Sharshooter only ranged : weird decision...

 

Troubadour : Good in acceleration of phrases, good in multiclass but... I don't know. Without a good dragon thrashed = trash for me : p

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

I didn't actually check the Beckoner nerf. What's it now? Longer summoning time? That would be stupid.

[Boeroer]

By the way: a Bleak Walker/Skald with Shared Flames + Mith Fyr was fun to play. You party gets some good lashes that way.

Had to console it in though because lvl 9 is not enough.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

A Skald mixed with a Paladin does really well. He gets auras, chants, invocations, heals, way better defenses, he pretty much gets everything covered. Plus if the strength/resolve stays the way it is you can leave strength at base and add to Resolve for better heals and invocations.

[theBalthazar]

I didn't actually check the Beckoner nerf. What's it now? Longer summoning time? That would be stupid. 

 

 

Stats nerf ? In first version of beta beckoner was really OP. Now for 10 seconds = racket.

 

The main problem of that is : you are less effective AFTER 10 seconds than NOW in 3 seconds. So, after your casting time, you are always less effective than a melee with less time !? : p

 

This is the main problem.

 

Even if Mini-wyvern (I forgot the name) can be invoke in 3 seconds, it is always less effective than melee with the same amount of time. So the problem is BIG : p

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Er... what?

[theBalthazar]

What did not you understand?

[Boeroer]

Like... everything?

 

But never mind - I just came home and checked ingame. It seems that the "only" nerf is that the creatures have 50% health now? Still an advantage over one single summon with 100% health. Two summons can do two things at the same time and they block more space (even if they are smaller). Especially if you use Brittle Bones this might not even be a disadvantage because after 12 secs the summons will disappear anyways.

 

Before the nerf they were just "weaker" (not specified) - whatever that meant. 

 

Don't know if it's THAT terrible, but I will have to playtest first. Before this nerf the double summons where clearly too powerful.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Just played a Beckoner for a few minutes with the help of the console: still feels very powerful.

[clouseau64]

A Skald mixed with a Paladin does really well. He gets auras, chants, invocations, heals, way better defenses, he pretty much gets everything covered. Plus if the strength/resolve stays the way it is you can leave strength at base and add to Resolve for better heals and invocations.

 

i agree that paladin works well with skald as it can be a natural tank and intelligence helps both auras, chants  and debuff. i am less sure regarding resolve as best offensive invocations are mainly about CC so require neither maxed strength nor resolve.  Pally's FOD on a sworn ennemy is +35 acc which will often double crit and synergizes well.

 

i find the class synergize very  well with warrior as disciplined strikes  gives a 100% hit to crit conversion on paralysed target, and extra perception +50% graze to hit is golden for invocation notwithstanding concentration. i have tried it as skald/unbroken to spear-head the formation, it doesn't do much much damge but crit flies and the golden trilogy shield cracks/ killer froze/thunder rolled can target any of the weak defense of ennemies which you can engage easily. into the fray can be useful to recenter stragglers into your cone. clubs work well also as modal is one of the good one ( -25 will).

i might try next a dual wielding dagger /club or hatchet /club or spear/ club devoted as dual wield is too good to pass and extra armor is easy to get with plate. 10 pen on disengagement attack is a bit useless given how boosted they are and the fact that ennemies AI don't break engagement.

[Boeroer]

Those tiny ogres and phantoms of the Beckoner look really ridiculous (in a bad way) though. Would be better if they simply switched out the creatures so that the beckoner simply summoned weaker/smaller creatures instead.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

Beckoner is not bad. But suffer of the main problem of all casters : cast time.

 

9 seconds

1 seconds

Total : 10 seconds

 

After that your are in a good position....

...After that = Perhaps, often, the end of the battle...

And still, most of the time, I test only one char (the main, watcher). What will happen when the whole team is optimized ?

 

We can tell it, Beckoner is in low mid tiers.

 

Why ? Because if we do a comparison with others classes.

 

There is two possibilities. You know the game Boeroer, I know it, but me too. 100 h on the beta. So, you know that Melee characters is better.

 

So I was saying few post ago : when a melee character attack during 3 seconds (often with instant boost like disciplined barrage, swift strike etc.) he do more damage on 3 seconds.

 

EVEN more damage than casters if you place all the invoke at 6 seconds or even 3 seconds (Yes I think that). So to conclude :...

 

1) Melee character are too powerful.

 

2) Casters are slow AND weak.

 

Because the speed doesn't explain why I am more effective with melee character at equal time elapsed.

 

Chanter is a caster, slow, and weak.

 

If I was Obsidian :

 

All invoke 6 seconds Cast time, 1 recovery. (Just for start... : p)

 

If I'm honest, these summons are good, but do not deserve more than 3 seconds of CT and 1 of recovery, in the current ultra-aggressive meta-game...

 

6 seconds is a good start. It is viable (not optimal but viable) 9 is absurd and racket compared to others classes.

 

EDIT : And I have forget the most important. The interrupt. If you are at 5 seconds and there is an interruption. OR If you feel the slow rythm of agglomeration of phrase, 3-4-5 phrases is expensive in the dynamics of the fight. It is precious. Total loss if interrupted. And you have not a pool of power source (4/5 remaining) like others classes... So 9 seconds is long, moderatly powerful, and risky.

Edited January 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[hilfazer]

 

1) Melee character are too powerful.

 

2) Casters are slow AND weak.

 

 

I've that ranged weapons are often omitted in balance discussions.

Does it mean they are balanced well?

[Boeroer]

That the invocatons take 6 seconds (see skeletons) is ok in my opinion (9 seconds is a bit long I have to agree). Because summons are one of the most powerful/useful things in the game. They prevent your whole party from getting attacked for example.

 

You can easily keep summons on the battlefield for the whole fight as a Beckoner. During 12 secs of duration you can easily summon a new bunch of summons that replace the old ones - even with 9 secs of base casting time. Since summons only cost 2 phrases each for the Beckoner he can basically summon creatures all the time. The first 6 seconds of combat are filled with waiting (because of initial casting time), sure, but you can compensate for that if you for example use a scounting character who lures enemies towards your party's position while the Beckoner starts summoning. The enemies can then be welcomed by a bunch of summons. Plus: Chanter's offensive invocations nearly all have a casting time of 0.5 secs. So hardly slow and weak. 

 

If there's a caster that is powerful in this beta it's the chanter. 

[Boeroer]

 

 

1) Melee character are too powerful.

 

2) Casters are slow AND weak.

 

 

I've that ranged weapons are often omitted in balance discussions.

Does it mean they are balanced well?

 

Not really. Scepters for example are very strong while the hunting bow is kind of meh (maily due to PEN reasons and accuracy issues). 

 

I just think that because melee is so powerful atm it dominates the discussion - also because a lot of people don't test a wide variaty of characterb builds but instead do playthroughs with their favorite and most powerful builds - which are melee based. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

I just think that because melee is so powerful atm it dominates the discussion - also because a lot of people don't test a wide variaty of characterb builds but instead do playthroughs with their favorite and most powerful builds - which are melee based. 

 

 

Thats true. Multiclass encourage to find the best combo. More than POE1 (necessarly).

 

And if Obsidian want a dynamic and fast battle (seems to be the case) = Boost the casters. Invoke = 5s seconds cast time + 1 second recovery. No cast time above 6 seconds.

If Obsidian want to stay at long cast time (not fan personnaly) = Nerf the physical classes.

 

But the majority of the comments say they like the dynamics of the physical fighter. So the cursor seems all found.

 

Not really. Scepters for example are very strong while the hunting bow is kind of meh (maily due to PEN reasons and accuracy issues). 

 

 

Yes. Bad word. More physical class I wanted to say.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Scepters are strong because they get the dual-weild bonus to recovery time; most other one-handed ranged weapons have reload instead of recovery so don't. 

 

Overall (scepters and wands excepted) ranged weapons do less damage than melee weapons, significantly so, but you can min/max a ranged character more and you don't have to run around as much.

[Boeroer]

Scepters are also great because the modal is actually very good. For a bit of self damage (which can be healed easily) you get more damage and more importantly: +2 more PEN, which is powerful. Most other modals trade one dps stat for the other, like more PEN but lower damage or more damage but lower ACC or more PEN but slower recovery. Scepters don't do that but simply hurt you a bit for more damage AND more PEN. Only downside of scepters: they are really short-ranged.

 

Rods are also very powerful because the blast works like Carnage in PoE now: it works with nearly all on-hit effects like rogues' strike abilities. This can be exploited pretty easily even if the rod itself is a rel. slow weapon.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Dragon thrashed ? = Poop now.

What the...

I've just tried it, and it's not even a DoT now??

 

At 10 MIG, it's just dealing 4.8 (according to combat log, or 6 according to overhead numbers) burn and slash damage once! every 6s (without brisk recitation) or every 3s (with brisk recitation)

 

In PoE1, with brisk recitation at 50% and 20 INT, it would have 4s duration + 6s linger resulting in 10 DoT duration. So every 4s there would be applied a DoT that has a duration of 10s (4.33 ticks) and every tick would deal 10 fire + 10 slash damage (@10 MIG), for a total of 86.6 (preDR) damage.

 

At 10 MIG:

- now: 6 preAR damage every 3s, compared to

- poe1: 86.6 preDR damage every 4s

 

That's a very severe nerf.

[Boeroer]

Yeah it has to be some kind of error. It's totally useless at the moment. Soft Winds is also crappy at best. Same with Ancient Memory which heals around 1 (!) point of health per cycle. Whoohaa! While my Livegiver uses all those crazy moonlight-shmancy-mancy spells that heal like 50 points per 3 secs and whatnot.

 

Also, as theBalthazar already mentioned, Mith Fyr got nerfed from 25% to 20% - while Lightning Strikes got buffed from 25% to 50% (!!!). At the same time some offensive invocations are so powerful now that it's not even funny any more.

 

I don't know who does the balancing in the Deadfire team but that Nalpasca person should drink less Potions of Infuse with Mescaline Essence.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[SaruNi]

Beckoner is not bad. But suffer of the main problem of all casters : cast time.

 

9 seconds

1 seconds

Total : 10 seconds

 

After that your are in a good position....

...After that = Perhaps, often, the end of the battle...

And still, most of the time, I test only one char (the main, watcher). What will happen when the whole team is optimized ?

 

We can tell it, Beckoner is in low mid tiers.

 

Why ? Because if we do a comparison with others classes.

 

There is two possibilities. You know the game Boeroer, I know it, but me too. 100 h on the beta. So, you know that Melee characters is better.

 

So I was saying few post ago : when a melee character attack during 3 seconds (often with instant boost like disciplined barrage, swift strike etc.) he do more damage on 3 seconds.

 

EVEN more damage than casters if you place all the invoke at 6 seconds or even 3 seconds (Yes I think that). So to conclude :...

 

1) Melee character are too powerful.

 

2) Casters are slow AND weak.

 

Because the speed doesn't explain why I am more effective with melee character at equal time elapsed.

 

Chanter is a caster, slow, and weak.

 

If I was Obsidian :

 

All invoke 6 seconds Cast time, 1 recovery. (Just for start... : p)

 

If I'm honest, these summons are good, but do not deserve more than 3 seconds of CT and 1 of recovery, in the current ultra-aggressive meta-game...

 

6 seconds is a good start. It is viable (not optimal but viable) 9 is absurd and racket compared to others classes.

 

EDIT : And I have forget the most important. The interrupt. If you are at 5 seconds and there is an interruption. OR If you feel the slow rythm of agglomeration of phrase, 3-4-5 phrases is expensive in the dynamics of the fight. It is precious. Total loss if interrupted. And you have not a pool of power source (4/5 remaining) like others classes... So 9 seconds is long, moderatly powerful, and risky.

 

Cast it from stealth. You almost certainly won't be interrupted (AoE could get you though). And/or use the chant that gives concentration (will not cause you to leave stealth). Also, max dex. 

 

The skeletons only take base 6 seconds to cast, but the rest are 9 seconds... since Ogre et cetera require more phrases too that's an especially long wait. You'll rarely be able to use the Drake unles you purposefully adopt a slow playstyle. 

 

Skald is apparently bugged so you can only get two phrases from crits. So rapidly getting crits to cast level 5 invocations early isn't doable currently.

 

Many chants are lacking in descriptions. Soft Winds of Death attacks fortitude, so it goes well with 4th tier chant The Long Night's Drink (causes Weakened for -5 con and also reduces strength, though it doesn't say by how much). Unfortunately Soft Winds currently does "missing string -1" damage according to the UI---it almost certainly does do damage but don't know how much, not very much.

 

So multiclass Beckoner (speed skeletons), Skald (remove armor / stun), or troubadour might be better than single-class currently, unless you want to use (relatively nerfed) Aefyllath or the higher-tier AoE defensive buff chants. 

[SaruNi]

Just tested The Dragon Thrashed:

 

When surrounded by enemies, it will only target 1 enemy per chant started....

Edited January 8, 2018 by SaruNi