Chanter Subclasses Discussion

[Boeroer]

Yes, crits with Citzal's Spirit Lance's AoE will generate phrases (at least last time I tried in beta1).

[Yosharian]

From the perspective of someone who hasn't played the Beta and is just going by the subclass descriptions, I can say that the Troubadour is extremely confusing.  Before Boeroer explained it, I did not understand what it was supposed to do well at all.

 

I think that could be an issue for players either new to the series or just new to Deadfire.

[Heijoushin]

Those tiny ogres and phantoms of the Beckoner look really ridiculous (in a bad way) though. Would be better if they simply switched out the creatures so that the beckoner simply summoned weaker/smaller creatures instead.

Really late response to this comment: I legitimately thought that was a bug. You mean the beckoner will summon midgets of everything? That is pretty disappointing. 

[Boeroer]

Yes. It is also said in his subclass description. I think the main reason for this is that the double amount of "normal" summons just takes up too much space. So they made the creatures smaller. With the skeletons and the wurms it's bearable because with a little bit of imagination they could be Orlan skeletons, younger wurms and so on. But those midgety Ogres look quite laughable.

 

Fun fact time again: if you take Brittle Bones as a Beckoner, the two skeletons that appear (after one of your tiny skeletons died) have the original size. So suddenly there are two enormous skeletons (so it seems,compared to the rest) where a tiny one stood before. It's kinda funny how a wicht-sized skeleton can "split" into two human sized ones. It's like Jesus was splitting them...

You also can't give those two biggies commands - they run on AI only. I think that's a bug though.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Boeroer

[SaruNi]

Yes. It is also said in his subclass description. I think the main reason for this is that the double amount of "normal" summons just takes up too much space. So they made the creatures smaller. With the skeletons and the wurms it's bearable because with a little bit of imagination they could be Orlan skeletons, younger wurms and so on. But those midgety Ogres look quite laughable.

 

Fun fact time again: if you take Brittle Bones as a Beckoner, the two skeletons that appear (after one of your tiny skeletons died) have the original size. So suddenly there are two enormous skeletons (so it seems,compared to the rest) where a tiny one stood before. It's kinda funny how a wicht-sized skeleton can "split" into two human sized ones. It's like Jesus was splitting them...

You also can't give those two biggies commands - they run on AI only. I think that's a bug though.

 

Would be fun to have a higher-level summons or summons upgrade that lets you summon a more powerful entity but at expense of not being able to control it (except maybe with charm/dominate...) so that it also attacks your party if in range....

Edited March 7, 2018 by SaruNi

[daven]

 

Yes. It is also said in his subclass description. I think the main reason for this is that the double amount of "normal" summons just takes up too much space. So they made the creatures smaller. With the skeletons and the wurms it's bearable because with a little bit of imagination they could be Orlan skeletons, younger wurms and so on. But those midgety Ogres look quite laughable.

 

Fun fact time again: if you take Brittle Bones as a Beckoner, the two skeletons that appear (after one of your tiny skeletons died) have the original size. So suddenly there are two enormous skeletons (so it seems,compared to the rest) where a tiny one stood before. It's kinda funny how a wicht-sized skeleton can "split" into two human sized ones. It's like Jesus was splitting them...

You also can't give those two biggies commands - they run on AI only. I think that's a bug though.

 

Would be fun to have a higher-level summons or summons upgrade that lets you summon a more powerful entity but at expense of not being able to control it (except maybe with charm/dominate...) so that it also attacks your party if in range....

 

Kind of like Gate did in BG2? If you didn't cast protection from evil it would go after your party.

[MaxQuest]

Btw, has anyone re-checked Dragon Trashed?

In beta1 it was dealing around x12 less total damage than in PoE1; am curious if the things have changed.

[morhilane]

Btw, has anyone re-checked Dragon Trashed?

In beta1 it was dealing around x12 less total damage than in PoE1; am curious if the things have changed.

 

Value haven't changed it in Beta 3 from what I remember of Beta1. It is pretty much a trap choice (as is Ancient Memory).

[MaxQuest]

Value haven't changed it in Beta 3 from what I remember of Beta1. It is pretty much a trap choice (as is Ancient Memory).

That's kinda strange, as Josh was against trash options. (source)

[morhilane]

 

Value haven't changed it in Beta 3 from what I remember of Beta1. It is pretty much a trap choice (as is Ancient Memory).

That's kinda strange, as Josh was against trash options. (source)

 

Going by how some of the Chanter stuff still have *missing strings* in Beta 3, it might just be trash because they haven't had the time to do a pass on it yet.

 

 

Hopefully, the Chanter gets some love before April 3rd.

[Boeroer]

Ancient Memory is actually not bad if you only use it and nothing else as phrase. It stacks with itself. With good RES you'll put a regeneration effect on every party member in range which is stronger than Constant Recovery.

[morhilane]

I believe it used to be 1hp/3 seconds,and now that I looked closely at it in beta 3, it is now 1hp/1 seconds for 10 seconds, so yeah it's not as bad anymore.

[Boeroer]

It's pretty good actually. I had a whole "Troubadour testing session" just with Ancient Memory and Her Courage Thick as Steel - which is even better. Those two could be reasons for me to bring at least two chanters.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[SaruNi]

It's pretty good actually. I had a whole "Troubadour testing session" just with Ancient Memory and Her Courage Thick as Steel - which is even better. Those two could be reasons for me to bring at least two chanters.

 

But don't Consecrated Ground and Lifegiver Druid give much more healing?... are the advantages of chants over spells really that great in this context?

[Boeroer]

You have to keep in mind the following:

• chants don't cost any resources like spell uses
• chants keep on going forever
• chants are passive and thus stack with everything
• chants are passive and thus you can do different things while they are running. With a Troubadour/Lifegiver for example you could use Ancient Memory active AND cast Moonwell at the same time (and they'd stack). Or you hit somebody with the sharp end of the stick while you heal the whole party passively
• while they work, chants generate phrases for powerful invocations (for example calling summons)
• chants won't get interrupted
• chants have no casting time and recovery

So yes, there are a couple of advantages of chants over spells. But you should not compare Ancient Memory with active healing spells though. You should compare Ancient Memory with other passive healing effects, for example the upgrade of Paladins' Zealous Endurance which gives the party the robust inspiration, which is also nice (and stacks with Ancient Memory by the way).



 

[Frog Man]

Bo - for your mith fyr Paladin, beckoner multiclass, I’m wondering if a single class beckoner and Pallegina could be an even better combo. You get mith fyr faster due to single class, plus you can stack ancient memory and ZE with robust.

 

Edit: ‘better’ is the wrong word, bc you’re using two party spots rather than 1. More curious about viability and play style, as I’m planning on a Beckoner MC for my first run.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Frog Man

[Boeroer]

Yes, sure. You can use two characters for the same effect. Or imagine two chanter/paladins: one with Mith Fyr + Shard Flames + Zealous Focus, the other with Ancient Memory + Zealous Endurance. Great passive healing/defensive support AND great offensive support.

[Frog Man]

Hey sorry to keep bugging here but I’ve tried this guy out in the beta and LOVED him. My best party yet involved his summons - skellies most of the time and switch to wyrms when there’s only a couple guys left (their fireballs are nasty!). He’ll be my main character for sure.

 

Curious how you’d build him - my thoughts were high INT and RES for long summons, large AOE chants, and powerful healing (or does ancient memory not get affected by RES?)

 

Figured this guy won’t hit hard and should focus on tanking and supporting. Plate armor, large shield, hatchet, etc. ?

[Boeroer]

I used a pike with modal to lower enemies' defenses from behind my summons, so yes: weapon damage was not the main focus. When doing FoD I switched the modal off.

 

Stats were high INT, RES, DEX (to bring down summoning time and recovery) rest fairly balanced, didn't dump anything I believe. I didn't tank in plate because this slows down recovery after invocations too much for my taste.

 

Ancient Memory gets influenced by RES, yes. So instead of 1 point per sec you can have 1.4 or so.

 

I never tested: does White Flames (from the Kind Wayfarer) procs twice when you use a dual wielding setup? Because if it does I would consider putting on plate and go into the front line with dual weapons.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Boeroer

[drchocapic]

I'm honestly pretty surprised at how much I enjoy Chanters so far, especially since I wasn't a big fan of the class in the first game.

[Veevoir]

They are a great multiclass, especially with a more "active" second class. I am wondering if benefits of single class will be improved in final release (or there are omg awesome things at high levels only single class can reach), because at this point multiclass gives so much flexibility and fun - single is simply boring.

Imagine a party where everyone multis as a chanter. Oh boy.

The concept is what puts me off from using them as main character - Chanter is an obvious support class, nobody wants to be a supporter in his/hers own story But they are potent and not to be ignored. To be honest - I find a chanter more useful then a priest.

[Frog Man]

With you Veevoir. I think Bo has convinced me to go two chanters:

 

Pallegina Paladin/Chanter

Me Beckoner

 

Probably still need a priest for support and because I’m banking on the high level single class priest abilities being godlike.

[Yosharian]

They are a great multiclass, especially with a more "active" second class. I am wondering if benefits of single class will be improved in final release (or there are omg awesome things at high levels only single class can reach), because at this point multiclass gives so much flexibility and fun - single is simply boring.

 

Imagine a party where everyone multis as a chanter. Oh boy.

 

The concept is what puts me off from using them as main character - Chanter is an obvious support class, nobody wants to be a supporter in his/hers own story But they are potent and not to be ignored. To be honest - I find a chanter more useful then a priest.

 

You say that but the idea of a Skald is pretty bad-ass for a main character I think

 

and it's not just a support class, the offensive invocations are pretty cool, and maybe Obsi will buff Dragon Thrashed..

[Madscientist]

I think I have read that chanters in PoE1 stop chanting for some time after using an invocation.

 

- Is that true or do they sing passively all the time?

- did something change in PoE2?

 

Just to be sure:

Ancien memory was a passive ability that was always on in PoE1. Did it have a duration or was it permanent? (I think constant recovery for fighters was the same).

In PoE2 ancient memory is a chant just like any other chant.

[Boeroer]

That is true. After an invocation you will have a recovery phase. During that phase there's no chaning and also no Ancient Memory/Beloved Spirits. Heavy armor and bad DEX prolong that phase. That's why I never use invocations when playing the usual Dragon-Thrashed turtle in PoE.

 

I don't think that this changed in Deadfire - but the recovery times of invocations seem to be shorter in general in Deadfire. 

 

Ancient Memory/Beloved Spirits in PoE was basically endless: as long as you chanted it was working. It was only interrupted by invocations (or afflictions that made you stop chanting, like paralyze for example). In Deadfire it's not a passive addition to any chant like in PoE but instead it is a chant itself now. So you have to decide if you want Dragon Thrashed OR Ancient Memory for example. But it's more powerful in Deadfire than in PoE.

 

Constant Recovery has a duration (influenced by INT). It's the same in PoE and Deadfire. After 45 sec (base) it's gone. But it doesn't get interrupted by anything.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Boeroer