Please Revert the Might Changes

[theBalthazar]

with the subdivision of the ex-might in Strengh,

 

I'm to stay with multiplicative system.

[Doxy]

I like the change. Brings poe back to traditional rpg roots.

Might for healing and spell dmg didn't make any sense. Resolve on the other hand does.

[Sedrefilos]

I like the change. Brings poe back to traditional rpg roots.

Might for healing and spell dmg didn't make any sense. Resolve on the other hand does.

Exactly. Dump stats is next. Weeee for the past! This is how progress is always made

[illathid]

To be fair the new system is much more engaging both mechanically and from roleplaying perspective. Wizards can still invest in Strength if they use conjured weapons or orbs (like Kalakoth's Blights). 

 

I disagree entirely. This change does very little mechanically and actively makes roleplaying worse for me. My bodybuilding pyromaniac wizard character I beat PoE1 with is now extremely ineffective with his favorite tool (fireballs).

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

I disagree entirely. This change does very little mechanically and actively makes roleplaying worse for me. My bodybuilding pyromaniac wizard character I beat PoE1 with is now extremely ineffective with his favorite tool (fireballs).

I disagree. It is quite possible to create bodybuilding wizard in the new system by investing points in both Strength and Resolve. On the other hand in the previous system in was mechanically impossible to create a wizard with good damage output without also making him a bodybuilder because it was a combined stat.

[Roda]

Multiclass it is always punished by stats distribution in every game, I cant complain about that, another motive to chose a single class (and we need lots more). I like the resolve change. I see this as wizard vs sorcerer from D&D. Might goes well with the sorcerer background, while for wizards it takes some resolve to cast their spells in the heat of the battle while keeping their focus. And I like wizards a lot more  .

Really, multiclass need to lose at some point vs single class or single class needs to gain a lot (fun and variety, not power) or remove single class. I see this as a plus for chose single class over multi.

And of course we cant forget how well it fits resolve for healing instead of might (even if you can have some arguments for it).

 

 

 

I like the change. Brings poe back to traditional rpg roots.

Might for healing and spell dmg didn't make any sense. Resolve on the other hand does.

Exactly. Dump stats is next. Weeee for the past! This is how progress is always made

 

 

Dump stats was always here. Just there....right into resolve among some others.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Roda

[illathid]

I disagree. It is quite possible to create bodybuilding wizard in the new system by investing points in both Strength and Resolve. On the other hand in the previous system in was mechanically impossible to create a wizard with good damage output without also making him a bodybuilder because it was a combined stat.

 

 

Yes, but the increased strength serves no mechanical benefit to him other than as a "roleplaying tax."  It's a terrible change.

 

And yeah, to have high damage output wizard you needed to be strong. However, that wasn't the only effective wizard build and you could just easily ignore might and still have an effective wizard. I'm upset because a character I made and spent over 30+ hours invested in has suddenly and irrevocably been changed.

[Davrial]

 

I disagree entirely. This change does very little mechanically and actively makes roleplaying worse for me. My bodybuilding pyromaniac wizard character I beat PoE1 with is now extremely ineffective with his favorite tool (fireballs).

I disagree. It is quite possible to create bodybuilding wizard in the new system by investing points in both Strength and Resolve. On the other hand in the previous system in was mechanically impossible to create a wizard with good damage output without also making him a bodybuilder because it was a combined stat.

 

Except stuff like "being buff" is pretty much solely reliant on the Skills now, like Athletics. If you dont want to be seen as buff you just dont put points into the buff Skills. The fact that skills exist in Deadfire makes that a non-issue that is still somehow the main argument against Might.

Also, the heck are you talking about "it's still possible" to make a bodybuilding wizard? That's two stats you have to invest into make a decent melee mage, which is more you have to spread out your stats (or, even worse, promotes minmaxing, which Might helped avoid)

[JerekKruger]

Might for healing and spell dmg didn't make any sense. Resolve on the other hand does.

 

Why does being strong willed make sense for increasing spell damage? Why doesn't Might?

 

I disagree. It is quite possible to create bodybuilding wizard in the new system by investing points in both Strength and Resolve. On the other hand in the previous system in was mechanically impossible to create a wizard with good damage output without also making him a bodybuilder because it was a combined stat.

 

And now it's mechanically impossible to create a wizard with good damage who has poor willpower. So long as there is a stat governing spell damage, damage dealing spellcasters will be forced to pick it.

 

Also for the millionth time: Might isn't strength.

 

I'm upset because a character I made and spent over 30+ hours invested in has suddenly and irrevocably been changed.

 

This. Had Pillars had a similar Strength/Resolve system I wouldn't care, but I want to carry on the story of my Watcher and having the change their attributes ruins that for me.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

This. Had Pillars had a similar Strength/Resolve system I wouldn't care, but I want to carry on the story of my Watcher and having the change their attributes ruins that for me.

 

 

 

Yeah, if we're changing things I'd just say "let's cut Resolve from the game" but this game is a sequel and that matters, in the same sense & for the same reasons that PoE 1 had to follow the Baldur's Gate games.

[BrettNLowe]

I made a long post advocating for essentially this change before they even announced it, so don't assume everyone is against it.

 

I don't care to rewrite the whole thing, but the idea that Might made sense thematically as spiritual strength just never rang true. Every interaction that involved force of will keyed off of Resolve. Concelhaut was a mighty wizard, but am I supposed to really believe his weak and wizened frame could swing a sword like the Hulk? Meanwhile, is a the mass of much that is a Forest Lurker really supposed to be a creature with a strong soul? No, and no.

 

I still think Strength needs something to help it not be a dump stat, but overall this system is better in a thematic sense. Personally, I'd give it a multiplicative bonus/malus to armor recovery penalties.

[-dib-]

I really liked the change. Grouping physical and metaphysical strength into one stat made for a lot of awkward dialogue where your scrawny wizard was always referred to as some muscle beast that could bend steel and throw people around like paper bags.

 

Resolve governing spell damage and healing sits a lot better with me.

[Davrial]

I don't care to rewrite the whole thing, but the idea that Might made sense thematically as spiritual strength just never rang true. Every interaction that involved force of will keyed off of Resolve. Concelhaut was a mighty wizard, but am I supposed to really believe his weak and wizened frame could swing a sword like the Hulk? Meanwhile, is a the mass of much that is a Forest Lurker really supposed to be a creature with a strong soul? No, and no.

 

I still think Strength needs something to help it not be a dump stat, but overall this system is better in a thematic sense. Personally, I'd give it a multiplicative bonus/malus to armor recovery penalties.

 

 

I really liked the change. Grouping physical and metaphysical strength into one stat made for a lot of awkward dialogue where your scrawny wizard was always referred to as some muscle beast that could bend steel and throw people around like paper bags.

 

Resolve governing spell damage and healing sits a lot better with me.

 

That's the thing tho, people like you 2 are the main ones for this, and it's almost exclusively just because "oh I dont want my wizards to be beefy!" even tho:

1- It's a completely ignorable thing that doesnt affect your playstyle at all while completely changing the Might system to this affects play drastically.

2- Deadfire has the Skills system. They have already stated that Skills are checked far more often for dialogue than your actual stats are. The thing you are complaining about is a complete nonisue in Deadfire even before this change, because if you didnt want to be intimidating, BAM! Don't put points into intimidate! You dont want your wizard lifting stuff and being all buff-guy-like? Don't put points in Athletics!

 

This is why I dislike the arguments for this change. I can understand some theoretical reasons for it, but they are very small voices compared to most in this discussion, almost all the arguments actually expressed are those similar to yours, which is a complete nonissue that is making a big issue by changing things like this.

 

"I don't like my wizard being beefy in completely optional dialogue and roleplay, so let's advocate for completely changing the core stats that characters are built upon and directly affect most if not all aspects of gameplay!"

Edited December 23, 2017 by Davrial

[mpking52@gmail.com]

I support the change. 

[dbn]

For me, the change works because I don't generally play characters with a super maxed out stat and one very low stat; the lowest I ever go with is a 9 in any stat.   I generally play mixed melee/caster types; I just have to be more strategic about spell selection and combat may take a little longer.  This change helps my characters, but this change doesn't drastically change how I will play.  I prefer the storytelling aspect of the game where having investment in even "dump" stats can pay dividends in the story narrative. 

 

Granted, if you're playing PotD, you probably don't care about that part of the game as much as someone like me.  I like the change, but if they decide to go back to the previous version of Might, then I think the best use of Resolve as an attribute would be to affect concentration/ability to withstand interrupts/decrease debuff durations, etc. (I saw this suggestion somewhere... can't remember where.)  It could also play a greater role in the non-combat interaction part of the game.  (I know... this is what Insight/Diplomacy/Intimidate/etc. are for.  But, maybe Resolve could enhance those interactions in some way.)  How about you get a bonus to skill points at each level based on how much Resolve you have??????  This way, people who prefer the combat aspects of the game get what they want, and I (and others who prefer the story aspect) get what they want.

 

Reading the above discussion I am struck by the idea that you would dump 9 points of resolve as a baseline... that means that instead of having 15 points to distribute among 6 attributes, you now have 24 points to distribute among 5 attributes.  These two scenarios result in very different types of characters and probably different types of games (see above).  Obsidian has said they want to support both styles of play so good luck to them to figure this out. 

[blotter]

2- Deadfire has the Skills system. They have already stated that Skills are checked far more often for dialogue than your actual stats are. The thing you are complaining about is a complete nonisue in Deadfire even before this change, because if you didnt want to be intimidating, BAM! Don't put points into intimidate! You dont want your wizard lifting stuff and being all buff-guy-like? Don't put points in Athletics!

 

While it's true that the developers have said that, it's also true that the beta contains multiple examples of attribute checks in dialogues and scripted interactions. In particular, the Strength check to force open the door to Poko Kohara directly contradicts your claim that brute force options have effectively been divorced from Strength/Might and assigned to Athletics. Incidentally, this was a Might check prior to the update and it was another example of a feat of physical strength in the vein of those Might checks from Pillars 1 that have been criticized in this thread and elsewhere (my character at the time was a monk/cipher, though, so maybe the text differed for a more "pure" spellcaster).

 

That said, I'm personally ambivalent about the change. I didn't care for physical strength and spiritual strength being bundled up into the same attribute to begin with, but the abstraction of it made Might's role in influencing the damage of certain weapons (like crossbows, guns, and implements) seem more reasonable to me and I'd have preferred to see them come up with something for Resolve that would be of more widespread appeal to different classes.

 

Edit: Also, if we're talking about what makes sense here, the change from Might to Strength introduces new issues in that the latter attribute should logically become useless in the Beyond since your characters are just projections of the soul in that environment, but the game's all too happy to overlook that so that fighters, barbarians, and others who heavily invest in Strength won't turn into dead weight however many times we find ourselves wandering around in there.

Edited December 23, 2017 by blotter

[FreeKaner]

It's false that this is less accurate in terms of representation of abstraction. In PoE1 intimidation or resolution through dialogue were often resolve checks. For example, to solve the quest with alpine dragon without combat you required 19 resolve.

Edited December 23, 2017 by FreeKaner

[KDubya]

The new Resolve and Strength just makes the Orlan Wizard from Aedyr a dominant caster archetype.

 

Dumping Strength to 2 just means that auto attacks are bad. You have enough spells that you can just cast one after another and finish combat before you run out of spells.

 

Adding those eight stat points into Constitution keeps your Fortitude the same and gives you an extra 40% health. Basically your Wizard will be just less than a barbarian/paladin multi who has base 10 con.

 

Max out Resolve to 20 and place the rest of the points as you choose.

 

Just don't select any spells like summoned weapons or kalkoth's minor blights, stick to missile strikes, lightning bolts or fireballs.

 

For my non casters I just leave Resolve at base ten and treat it as a nerf to healing and regen.

 

My Ciphers just keep at base ten and stick with mainly melee attacks. It seems more effective to have an 18 Strength for damage and focus gain and a ten Resolve than to split it to 14 and 14. If they ever fix casting times I'll just concentrate on CC like paralyze and blind and do damage via melee rather than using damage based powers.

 

Actually I've found that adding to dexterity makes a bigger difference now as it helps both melee and casting.

[Murp]

What if there was like a "Weapon Finesse" style feat that let ciphers use resolve for weapon damage? I guess that would bring a whole new set of problems.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Murp

[AndreaColombo]

^ Probably. This change to Strength generates more issues that require more band aids. We should revert and find something else to make Resolve worthwhile.

[Osvir]

Each point past 10.

This is what it is now:

Strength = +3% Weapon Damage, +2 Foritude
Constitution = +5% Health, +2 Fortitude
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +2 Reflex
Perception = +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex
Intellect = +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +2 Will
Resolve = +3% Spell Damage and Healing, +1 Deflection, +2 Will

I fundamentally disagree with Strength governing all Weapon Damage. I mean, a bullet doesn't do more damage based on how hard you press the trigger. It all depends on Aim and Precision. In this regard, I believe Perception would be a better stat for governing Weapon Damage across the board.

This is probably how I would spread it out:
 

Strength = +1% Weapon Damage, +1% Duration, +1 Foritude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Constitution = +2% Area of Effect, +5% Health, +3 Fortitude
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1% Duration, +3 Reflex
Perception = +2% Weapon Damage, +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +2% Spell Damage and +1% Healing, +4% Area of Effect, +3% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +1% Spell Damage and +2% Healing, +1 Deflection, +3 Will

Well, okay, maybe not like this. But something like it. It's just a general example, out of the top of my head. Spreading the beneficial gains across several attributes, making all the Attributes more attractive and necessary mechanically (and less room for dumping stats). Why would Strength have one of each? I don't know, but it looked pretty empty with just "+2 Fortitude" after I moved Weapon Damage to Perception so I thought it could benefit being a sort of "General Attribute" that's a little bit good with every defense. This was also one of the reasons why I modified some values into +3 (Constitution, Dexterity, Resolve) and some into +1 (Strength, Perception, Intellect) to others.

Of course, this could be pretty daunting and more difficult for newcomers or casual players who just want to get started right away (Maybe adding in a "Recommended button"? Pressing it distributes the points automatically into a "This works" build?).

EDIT:
Curiously, I'm dumping even more stats now than I did previously (correction: I didn't dump stats previously). Which makes me think that maybe it should be something like this:
 

Strength = +1% Weapon Damage, +1% Spell Damage, +1 Foritude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Constitution = +2% Area of Effect, +5% Health, +3 Fortitude
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1% Duration, +3 Reflex
Perception = +2% Weapon Damage, +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +2% Spell Damage and +1% Healing, +4% Area of Effect, +3% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +2% Healing, +1% Duration, +1 Deflection, +3 Will

What are the changes? I put +1% Spell Damage into Strength, and +1% Duration into Resolve. Removing Spell Damage completely from Resolve.

Some things I think are a bit odd myself are...

"Area of Effect" in Constitution. My thinking is that, well, more physical mass would naturally convey an individual that can also create a larger area of effect in their spell casting and ability usage. This makes me think that some of these Statistics from Attributes should also be included in Race picks (E.g. an Aumaua having some extra Fortitude and/or Area of Effect... an Island Aumaua getting +1% more Weapon Damage, because it makes sense that the effect of Arms Bearer implies that the character is good with weapons, in my opinion*).

"Duration" in Dexterity is even odder, but to me it also makes sense, in a sort of far-fetched meta way.. a faster individual requires less time to take action, hence would also create the perfect conditions for longer durations. Simpler explanation, and sillier too, is pretty much "I stab faster so you get effect earlier so it lasts longer" xD I didn't say it was a good explanation~

* Adding in some of the Statistical values of the Attributes could even see removal of some statistics. Let's take Aumaua again as an example: Constitution gives +2 Fortitude... but what if it only gave +1 Fortitude, but choosing Aumaua it would give +2 as usual.

This would make choices matter quite a bit, and we would also return to some of the Infinity Engine "Favored Classes" concept. Meaning that the Attributes screen could look something like this instead (using the current format in this example):
 

Strength = +3% Weapon Damage, +1 Foritude
Constitution = +5% Health, +1 Fortitude (+1 Aumaua)
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1 Reflex
Perception = +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +3% Spell Damage and Healing, +1 Deflection, +1 Will

Everything is at +1 except on Constitution. Of course, this makes characters way weaker, but as of now these are just vague Concepts to make, I believe, choices in Character Creation a tad bit more interesting. One could also go even further. Adding in Statistics into Classes as well. Let's take an Aumauan Fighter.
 

Strength = +3% Weapon Damage, +1 Foritude
Constitution = +5% Health, +1 Fortitude (+1 Aumaua, +2 Fighter)
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1 Reflex
Perception = +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +3% Spell Damage and Healing, +1 Deflection, +1 Will

But what if it's a Multi-Class? Fighter/Paladin (Crusader)
 

Strength = +3% Weapon Damage, +1 Foritude
Constitution = +5% Health, +1 Fortitude (+1 Aumaua, +1 Fighter)
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1 Reflex
Perception = +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +3% Spell Damage and Healing, +1 Deflection, +1 Will (+1 Paladin)

~ I dunno.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Osvir

[theBalthazar]

Logically speaking : Perception+dexterity are the best stat for bow / arbalest.

 

But this creates an offensive imbalance. Accuracy + damage for one stat. Same if we choose dexterity. DPS become better than melee weapons.

Edited December 23, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Osvir]

And if Accuracy and Deflection where removed from Attributes? Or lowered? +0.5 Accuracy each point of Perception? Or 1% of Action Speed moved to another Attribute?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

You can make a lot of arguments for re-arranging the function of most of the stats, but ultimately the argument against doing so is one of the stronger arguments against the might->str change specifically:

 

This game is a sequel and people are going to want to import their characters from the prior game with a minimum of re-adjustment.

 

 

 

I mean, a generalized stat rebalance could make for a great mod. Maybe even a superior mod to the base game. I just suspect a lot of players are going to want to transfer their characters over without any major surprises.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

What if there was like a "Weapon Finesse" style feat that let ciphers use resolve for weapon damage? I guess that would bring a whole new set of problems.

 

 

You could even do that in lore with Soul Whip. It's just kludgy. For one thing, you lose any reason to play a high-Might cipher; you're just swapping out which stat is the dump stat. For another, then everybody else who wants to play a hybrid (i.e., a summoned weapon mage, shifter druid, etc.) is going to feel compelled to dual-class Cipher so they can take the kludge button and make their characters efficient too. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy