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Casters are still slow...


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One idea is give caster a modal to trade cast time for more power level, so ppls can choose to cast spell fast or harder and slower.

 

That's not a bad idea at all.  It reminds me a little bit of Dungeon Master (1987), where you had a choice about how powerful to make a spell when you cast it.  IIRC, it was balanced against chance of failure in that game, but no reason it couldn't be balanced against casting time.  However, it has to be done carefully.  For example, if the higher version gets you 2*N damage for 2*T casting time, you might as well just cast the lower end one twice.  It has to scale super-linearly to make sense.

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I'm more concerns about difficulty, maybe it's just me but, PoTD is... definitely not Easy but, "Not that Hard" I should say...  :unsure:

 

That topic might deserve its very own thread.  Lack of PotD difficulty was a problem POE1 had also (outside of some boss fights).  I'm hoping it'll be tuned to be harder for DF.  If a player wants more challenge, there's nowhere to go past PotD, so I feel PotD should be brutal (but NOT just by making everything a huge damage sponge).  I can always play on a lower setting, but there's nothing higher past PotD.

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here will be Loots dedicated on Reducing/Accelerating Casting Time, not only Trinkets/Necklace/Etc, but maybe Wizard-like Robes & divers stuff with unique passives addressing that... Maybe the Enchantment System ! We don't know yet. Nonetheless, I remember him saying : "If you wanna make your Character a Fast-Spell-Caster, you can definitely do that".

 

 

Same for physical characters. The problem is moved but not solved.

Edited by theBalthazar
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One issue come through my mind is that casters lack a way to boost spell’s penetration. Warriors can swap weapons or use modals, but casters can only boost their power level to get more pen, but currently they also lack way to boost power level, except empower which is only for one spell.

 

One idea is give caster a modal to trade cast time for more power level, so ppls can choose to cast spell fast or harder and slower. It’s pretty similar to POE penetration shot modal, but with another name, maybe called Spell enlarge, and boost power level instead.

 

Or vice versus, add a caster modal called Quick chant, ppl can activate it to trade power level for faster cast time.

 

Wanna have a more devastating fireball? Activate the Spell enlarge modal to prepare it longer for more power. Wanna just buff your team for small battle? Turn on Quick chant to cast it faster, but expect it to last shorter.

 

I think this gives more tactic depth to the casters, and also more flexibility.

Post of the month! Tactical depth indeed.

 

I really hope Josh reads this, as this idea would just deepen the uniqueness of the Deadfire CRPG.

 

For real, I think you are on to something that really solves this issue entirely, and the modal "technology" with UI and all is already a part of the game.

This would make spell casters so much more fun to play!!!

 

Modals that make casting time much faster, like Quick Chant, and perhaps "Arcane Burst" or "Holy Urgency", etc, would help with the sluggish spell casting, and then a few cool modals for more power, like that Enlarge, and so on.

Perhaps they should ditch the Empower feature (or rather, it gets integrated into this system and gets much needed new life) and instead diversify it per your suggestion for different spells or spell groups and caster classes.

 

The possibilities are endless here!

 

 

Yeah I think the encounters are ranged from trash mob fights to miniboss/boss fights in Deadfire. For these easy fights where you don't need long buff and high pen. If there is a Quick chant modal for casters, they can still be useful there. But when you face some real challenge, you might find that the combat would take a lot longer, enemy have higher armor rate so you might wanna turn the Quick Chant modal off, or even want higher power level to make your Pen exceed enemy's armor rate. All these decisions can make caster more fun to play.

 

I really think it's unfair for casters in Deadfire to not have their own cool tools to deal with different battle conditions. No caster passive, no caster modals, but hope we can see more of them in next patch :)

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It's not just the long cast times that annoy me, it's also the loss of the cast if I have to readjust caster positioning.

 

The combats in the beta are over so quickly that you will probably only get one long cast off and in most cases you have to retarget the spell before it is cast because the original targets are dead. This is great if the new target is still in range because you retarget and continue casting. If the remaining targets are just out of range then you either have to let the spell go off where no enemies are or you have to move the caster then you lose the spell entirely. If I'm dedicating one member of the party to spend 90% of a fight casting one spell I expect it to have a big effect and to be able to move the caster without losing the spell. 

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It's not just the long cast times that annoy me, it's also the loss of the cast if I have to readjust caster positioning.

 

The combats in the beta are over so quickly that you will probably only get one long cast off and in most cases you have to retarget the spell before it is cast because the original targets are dead. This is great if the new target is still in range because you retarget and continue casting. If the remaining targets are just out of range then you either have to let the spell go off where no enemies are or you have to move the caster then you lose the spell entirely. If I'm dedicating one member of the party to spend 90% of a fight casting one spell I expect it to have a big effect and to be able to move the caster without losing the spell. 

 

How would you make that work in the game?

 

With the current system you:

  • Start casting which locks your position
  • target a location
  • go through the casting animation
  • all the while prior to casting you can click on a new target location in range
  • cast the spell

If you could move you'd have no location selected which would do what as the timer runs out and the spell gets cast?

 

If you somehow put the spell on pause that allows you to 'store' pre-cast spells and then let them rip at a moment's notice.

 

If the spell completion still fills as you move around you now have casting while moving.

 

The solution to the issue is to not cast from extreme range, move up like halfway towards the enemy and you'll have plenty of room for re-targeting.

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It's not just the long cast times that annoy me, it's also the loss of the cast if I have to readjust caster positioning.

 

The combats in the beta are over so quickly that you will probably only get one long cast off and in most cases you have to retarget the spell before it is cast because the original targets are dead. This is great if the new target is still in range because you retarget and continue casting. If the remaining targets are just out of range then you either have to let the spell go off where no enemies are or you have to move the caster then you lose the spell entirely. If I'm dedicating one member of the party to spend 90% of a fight casting one spell I expect it to have a big effect and to be able to move the caster without losing the spell. 

 

How would you make that work in the game?

 

With the current system you:

  • Start casting which locks your position
  • target a location
  • go through the casting animation
  • all the while prior to casting you can click on a new target location in range
  • cast the spell

If you could move you'd have no location selected which would do what as the timer runs out and the spell gets cast?

 

If you somehow put the spell on pause that allows you to 'store' pre-cast spells and then let them rip at a moment's notice.

 

If the spell completion still fills as you move around you now have casting while moving.

 

The solution to the issue is to not cast from extreme range, move up like halfway towards the enemy and you'll have plenty of room for re-targeting.

 

 

Linear spells like Lightning bolt are affected more than other offensive spell from long casting time. These spells requires you to have a very good cast location to make it useful, but long cast time make it impossible to position because who knows after 6 second where would enemy move to.

 

With spells like Fireball, I can always retarget to find a good spot to hit as many enemies as possible, but for Lightning bolt, it's not about where you target, but where you stand that matters.

 

Thus, although I feel the long cast time is not a too bad thing, but for these linear spell, they do need to be fast enough to be competitive with aoe spells like fireballs.

Edited by dunehunter
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In PoE you cancel the casting process when moving - but at least you don't lose the spell use. Why do you lose the spell use in Deadfire even though the spell didn't go off yet? Long casting times and this annoying loss of spell uses is a bad combo.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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One issue come through my mind is that casters lack a way to boost spell’s penetration. Warriors can swap weapons or use modals, but casters can only boost their power level to get more pen, but currently they also lack way to boost power level, except empower which is only for one spell.

 

One idea is give caster a modal to trade cast time for more power level, so ppls can choose to cast spell fast or harder and slower. It’s pretty similar to POE penetration shot modal, but with another name, maybe called Spell enlarge, and boost power level instead.

 

Or vice versus, add a caster modal called Quick chant, ppl can activate it to trade power level for faster cast time.

 

Wanna have a more devastating fireball? Activate the Spell enlarge modal to prepare it longer for more power. Wanna just buff your team for small battle? Turn on Quick chant to cast it faster, but expect it to last shorter.

 

I think this gives more tactic depth to the casters, and also more flexibility.

Holy **** I love this idea.

 

+10

 

I'm all for faster casting, I just don't see how letting you move and retarget would actually work in game.

It would be fiddly and maybe too confusing, but they could certainly add some way for spells to just go into a "ready to cast" state when they finish powering up (rather than going off), and then you could move and cast them instantly. Maybe for a limited time, and probably only if you do nothing else in the meantime.

 

It might be too powerful, and almost certainly too confusing or fiddly for new players, but it's certainly something they could make work if they wanted to.

 

To be honest, it would probably be a bit cleaner than the recast feature right now (at least until they fix the "auto-pause on long ability cast" option to not be so broken and annoying and omg Obsidian fix this already for the love of ****, please).

Edited by Answermancer
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1) Chose PotD

2) Made glass cannon (max dps) wizard

3) Dismissed team

4) Leveled up to level 9 with console

 

Result = can't play reliably solo through given content, not even close to melee classes, even with max leveling / gearing.

 

Something has to change, probably cast speed or penetration for magic...

At max beta level can't penetrate properly common enemies.

Even with 20 dex it's pretty long time to cast fireball...

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Done this with Moon Godlike Wizard

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Perebor steam

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IF Obsidian want to make long cast time and stay with that, they must increase drastically the damages / Penetration / accuracy.

 

Like Fireball ? 50-60 damage, 15 penetration. This is long but, will do a death field.

 

It is a long cast time but = big kick.

 

And with this choice there is always the bottleneck effect (10000 damage for casters, yeah ! for 100s recovery. Ennemy ? 1 HP ? All damage behind the death is lost, You know the game...) but this is already a little more logicial than now.

 

But here, it is long BUT more, it is barely better than melee attack/attack for awful global DPS... (sometimes less effective...)

 

So there is a big big problem with spells...

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IF Obsidian want to make long cast time and stay with that, they must increase drastically the damages / Penetration / accuracy.

 

Like Fireball ? 50-60 damage, 15 penetration. This is long but, will do a death field.

 

It is a long cast time but = big kick.

 

And with this choice there is always the bottleneck effect (10000 damage for casters, yeah ! for 100s recovery. Ennemy ? 1 HP ? All damage behind the death is lost, You know the game...) but this is already a little more logicial than now.

 

But here, it is long BUT more, it is barely better than melee attack/attack for awful global DPS... (sometimes less effective...)

 

So there is a big big problem with spells...

 

Big damage + high penetration is a big no-no with new armor system. % reduction is supposed to reduce damage from big hits and it would not if those attacks were penetrating armor.

 

This is why dragon's breath will not have good penetration. Otherwise Obsidian would fail.

Vancian =/= per rest.

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i agree that spellcasting and its ineffectiveness is so far my major issue with Deadfire. I'd start by reducing casting time for most buffs, CC and cipher spells, as previously mentionned. I'd also like to see spells with longer cast times hit harder. If that doesn't solve the issue and make casters interesting, well, I think we should return to POE vancian casting. I for one dont understand why they ditched it. Balance was fine in POE, for me, POTD was enough of a challenge.

Edited by dukeisaac
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I think we shall uptune spells and downtune melee little by little, until the balance is reached. Only do one side won’t or is very hard to fix the problem.

 

If we only uptune spells, combat might feel too easy, and vice versa battle can be too hard if we only nerf melee. Since all these melee and spell problem are tied closely with enemies and how hard encounters are designed.

Edited by dunehunter
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I think we shall uptune spells and downtune melee little by little, until the balance is reached. Only do one side won’t or is very hard to fix the problem.

 

If we only uptune spells, combat might feel too easy, and vice versa battle can be too hard if we only nerf melee. Since all these melee and spell problem are tied closely with enemies and how hard encounters are designed.

Probably would be a good idea before going back to the drawing board.

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I'm all for faster casting, I just don't see how letting you move and retarget would actually work in game.

Either reduce the casting time of long cast spells so you run into this less often and/or don't reduce the available power point pool until after the spell is cast if the player cancels/interrupts the casting.

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With the killing of the vancian casters, Obidian seems to have made a poor decision.

 

- Obsidian will surely reduce casting times (with so many voices asking for it).

But when all your spells are done, your casters will soon be reduce to auto attack. And with the resolve/strength change, you have (another) problem.

 

- We could also increase the power and penetration of the casters

You still have the problem of interrupt. And with this long casting time, you change completely the art of fighting. No more hope to land a CC at the start of the fight, you will have to rely on tanks.

And honestly, what is the fun of looking a casting animation of 9 seconds ?

 

The more i play and think about, the more i regret the per rest system  ;(

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Great news:

 

Bloodlust works with spells and can be triggered by killing your own summons (just tested). Recruit a 1st level Ghost Heart or Beckoner / Monk (for speed) and (if your spells actually hit) you can easily kill all six skeletons at once with fast cast AoE (or kill a summoned pet, summon it again, kill it again, kill it and the Ghost Heart)... this *should* stack with itself at +20% action speed per kill.

 

Unfortunately Bloodlust is bugged and doesn't stack with itself. (And all class action speed bonuses have been nerfed in the new patch: 20% becomes 17%, 25% becomes 20%, 33% becomes 20%... really solving that casting speed issue aren't they.)

 

 

 

- We could also increase the power and penetration of the casters
You still have the problem of interrupt. And with this long casting time, you change completely the art of fighting. No more hope to land a CC at the start of the fight, you will have to rely on tanks.

 

 

As I've mentioned many times before you can cast CC outside of combat, combat won't start until the spell is cast and actually hits (or more likely misses) an enemy. Stealth is helpful but so long as the enemy hasn't noticed you you can do it.

Edited by SaruNi
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If you don't want to cast spells outside of combat, a party of casters multiclassed with Skald would have extremely good hard CC (one targeting will, one targeting reflex) and debuffs with 0.5 casting time... and chanters start with a bunch of phrases so they can be cast at the start of combat. Hard CC invocation, spell from multiclass, then when you're done casting the spell you should be ready to use another invocation. And while you're casting the effects of chants will be being applied, so it's not dead time....

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With the killing of the vancian casters, Obidian seems to have made a poor decision.
 

 

Little known fact:

PoE2 is way more vancian than PoE1. In fact it is more vancian than typical vancian system (think D&D).

 

First, let's look at the problem vancian casting brings:

"Caster has prepared wrong spell" (and not the right one).

 

Is it a problem in PoE1? In case of druid and priests answer is obvious, in case of wizards -  less so but it's still a "No". At worst a wizard will spent like 1.5s switching a grimoire, big deal.

 

In D&D preparing spells requires a rest so it can not be done in combat. Now this is something players can have problem with.

 

In PoE2 casters are choosing spells not per rest but per life!! Sure, wizards still have their grimoires but other caster AFAIK have no such options and are stuck with their choice forever.

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Vancian =/= per rest.

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With the killing of the vancian casters, Obidian seems to have made a poor decision.

 

Little known fact:

PoE2 is way more vancian than PoE1. In fact it is more vancian than typical vancian system (think D&D).

 

First, let's look at the problem vancian casting brings:

"Caster has prepared wrong spell" (and not the right one).

 

Is it a problem in PoE1? In case of druid and priests answer is obvious, in case of wizards - less so but it's still a "No". At worst a wizard will spent like 1.5s switching a grimoire, big deal.

 

In D&D preparing spells requires a rest so it can not be done in combat. Now this is something players can have problem with.

 

In PoE2 casters are choosing spells not per rest but per life!! Sure, wizards still have their grimoires but other caster AFAIK have no such options and are stuck with their choice forever.

It would be really disappointing that if I found a Lendary gromire but found out that I have already picked half of the spells it has during my level up. Then either the gromire is wasted or I have to respec repeatedly to max the spells I can use.

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