Weapon balance and comparison

[dunehunter]

 

What about ranged weapons?

I need a confirmation that firearm fanboys won and forced Obsidian to make arquebus a better arbalest.

 

 

Here are screenshots of ranged weapons in the current beta:

 

https://imgur.com/a/fC2wr

 

I don't know what "blunted criticals" means right now because as I understood it criticals only give +25% damage anyway. 

 

I've also got a pet thing that the Arquebus should do blunt damage rather than piercing but that's a side thing

 

 

The +75% critical damage = -25% critical damage, I think this is more confusing than before, newbie may think they get 75% more damage from critical attack but it's not true.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, I looked at the attack formula and basically it looks like it's just cancelling out the critical damage bonus entirely. Guns don't currently benefit from critical hits at all.

[Answermancer]

Okay that is extremely confusing.

 

If that's the case then it should just say "Blunted Criticals: Cannot inflict critical hits." Or something.

[hilfazer]

 

What about ranged weapons?

I need a confirmation that firearm fanboys won and forced Obsidian to make arquebus a better arbalest.

 

 

Here are screenshots of ranged weapons in the current beta:

 

https://imgur.com/a/fC2wr

 

I don't know what "blunted criticals" means right now because as I understood it criticals only give +25% damage anyway. 

 

I've also got a pet thing that the Arquebus should do blunt damage rather than piercing but that's a side thing

 

 

Thank You. Looks like arquebus isn't better arbalest after all. Arbalest has slightly more DPS.

 

 

 

 Guns don't currently benefit from critical hits at all. 

 

And arbalests!

 

They still benefit from extra penetration.

[Climhazzard]

If you go by the damage tiers it seems like penetration is valued more highly than other bonuses.  I'm not a math wiz who knows if that should be true or not, so I won't comment on it.  What I find odd is that penetration weapons are basically 3rd tier damage while dual damage weapons are first tier damage, but in a way their bonuses do the same thing.  Dual damage might not be as effective at penetration but it's still better than single damage weapons, yet it has the highest base damage.

 

I was wondering on people's thoughts about the best weapon choices for a Devoted if and when they make it so a Devoted can only pick a single weapon type?  I was honestly thinking dual damage weapons to avoid immunities and have a fairly good chance to always be able to penetrate your opponent's armor with a good base damage.  Dual swords is my current top pick.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Climhazzard]

Let’s not give the devs ideas on how to nerf the only good thing left (i.e. dual wielding)

 

Modals need a rethink, IMO. They are way too extreme in general, to the point most them are actually never useful.

 

 

Highly agree with this.  Some of them might be ok, like deflection malus..  but others are terrible, like 100% recovery malus.  Take mace for example, the effect is pretty nice, but you could easily give yourself a longer recovery than the duration of the effect, lol.

[AndreaColombo]

Dual sword is also my current pick for Devoted builds.

[Climhazzard]

 

Two interesting observations I've made:

 

 

Dual wielding a Sabre and a pistol or blunderbuss gets you the dual weapon attack speed boost to both. So if you have only one good sabre you can dual wield a pistol, shoot at the start and then rush into battle while getting the attack speed applied to only your good sabre.

 

 

 

That's really cool...  I wonder if it's intended, it's like having the benefits of two weapon sets in one slot, minus a bit of pistol alpha.

[Climhazzard]

 

What about unarmed attacks?

 

Unarmed are bugged in that after a save/load you lose the benefits of being a Monk and the damage drops to nothing.

 

It also doesn't help that you can't mouse over your fists and see the attack speed and recovery like you can with everything else. I think fists are as fast as fast weapons but have no idea what their base damage is or how it compares to weapons.

 

 

 

A level 6 monk and multi class monk fists have the same damage as a fine one handed sword with attack and recovery times of fast weapons.  I'm guessing, at least before your first load, they're probably the top tier weapon right now.  Minus the fact you'll be missing out on cool enchantments or whatever, so basically they're similar to what they were in PoE, but better with power level bonuses like that of nature godlike.  I imagine the benefits of power level bonuses will taper off as power levels get higher overall though.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Climhazzard

[KDubya]

If you go by the damage tiers it seems like penetration is valued more highly than other bonuses.  I'm not a math wiz who knows if that should be true or not, so I won't comment on it.  What I find odd is that penetration weapons are basically 3rd tier damage while dual damage weapons are first tier damage, but in a way their bonuses do the same thing.  Dual damage might not be as effective at penetration but it's still better than single damage weapons, yet it has the highest base damage.

 

I was wondering on people's thoughts about the best weapon choices for a Devoted if and when they make it so a Devoted can only pick a single weapon type?  I was honestly thinking dual damage weapons to avoid immunities and have a fairly good chance to always be able to penetrate your opponent's armor with a good base damage.  Dual swords is my current top pick.

 

For a Devoted I'd go with dual Sabres for the bonus 20% damage. Swords with dual damage types would be a strong choice as well with Great Sword topping out the choice for two handed.

 

If I ever encountered a slash immune I'd have dual rapier or clubs on switch so their +5 accuracy would partially offset the -10 malus. Or just single wield anything for the +12 accuracy.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think the weapon prof modals are too extreme, for example Savage Attack for greatswords cripples accuracy to the point of dealing less damage than regular attacks despite the massive bonus to base damage. Haven't done much with companion modals, but just looking at them makes me think they're too situational to use regularly.

[KDubya]

I think the weapon prof modals are too extreme, for example Savage Attack for greatswords cripples accuracy to the point of dealing less damage than regular attacks despite the massive bonus to base damage. Haven't done much with companion modals, but just looking at them makes me think they're too situational to use regularly.

 

I'd guess that situationally useful is what they were going for.

 

A set and forget would be not very tactically challenging. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I think the weapon prof modals are too extreme, for example Savage Attack for greatswords cripples accuracy to the point of dealing less damage than regular attacks despite the massive bonus to base damage. Haven't done much with companion modals, but just looking at them makes me think they're too situational to use regularly.

 

 

I'd guess that situationally useful is what they were going for.

 

A set and forget would be not very tactically challenging.

I understand that but it needs to be tuned to fit more situations. For example the greatsword modal has a whopping -20 accuracy penalty and that prevents it from being useful on enemies I've fought in the beta so far.

[AndreaColombo]

Agreed. I don’t need an extra 50% damage to mop the floor against under-leveled enemies I can still hit after taking a -20 Accuracy penalty. If they’re so much below my level, I’ll kill them quickly enough already.

[Answermancer]

Agreed. I don’t need an extra 50% damage to mop the floor against under-leveled enemies I can still hit after taking a -20 Accuracy penalty. If they’re so much below my level, I’ll kill them quickly enough already.

Yup.

 

I thought everyone agreed about this years and years ago with ****ty implementations of Power Attack.

[Wormerine]

So far my impression is that the most important stat of any weapon is penetration. Most enemies have around 10 AR making weapons with low penetration situational. I wish firearms did crush damage, as it seems ranged characters don't really have a way to effectively apprach an enemy with high piercing resistance.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

So far my impression is that the most important stat of any weapon is penetration. Most enemies have around 10 AR making weapons with low penetration situational. I wish firearms did crush damage, as it seems ranged characters don't really have a way to effectively apprach an enemy with high piercing resistance.

 

 

Yeah I've been on the "make the arquebus do crushing damage" train for a while now. Maybe the pistol too. 

 

That said, war and hunting bows are pierce/slash now, with the somewhat comical result that arrows are more effective against skeletons than guns are.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Tardigrade]

I think the main problem is not two handed weapon too weak, but the inner bonus of dual wielding is too much. That -50% recovery time is balanced based on POE 1 penetration system. If single handed gives 12 Accuracy(which equals to 12 Perception), then dual wielding should be slower, maybe gives -30% recovery time.

 

I think this is a great suggestion. There doesn't seem to be a good reason why dual-wielding should have a bonus that's much larger than the other styles with the new armor system. Tuning the bonus of dual-wielding down to bring it closer to the bonus received by the other styles makes those other styles more attractive, and also serves as a small step in closing the power gap between physical damage-dealing vs. spells. Also, given that I've seen quite a few voicing the opinion that PoTD is currently easy with an all-melee team, it would help to increase the challenge a little bit. Dual-wielding would still have the substantial extra benefit of full attacks.

 

On the other hand, I actually hope that there will be fewer ways to reduce recovery in Deadfire compared to PoE, and that reaching zero recovery without dual-wielding is essentially impossible. If you cannot easily reach zero recovery while single-wielding or using a two-handed weapon, then you don't need to worry that you're essentially just giving up 12 accuracy, a shield, or the bigger damage of a two-hander late-game if you choose to dual-wield.

 

(first post, so hi!)

Edited December 29, 2017 by Tardigrade

[AndreaColombo]

I dearly hope 0 recovery can be reached in Deadfire, and with all weapons to boot. It’s the holy grail of DPS and running a DPS-oriented character who doesn’t have 0 recovery makes me feel like I’m gimping myself. Appreciate others may have different tastes and play styles, but 0 recovery is essential to my fun and, as it is, you already need to sacrifice a number of skill points to get it while negating speed-boosting abilities that don’t stack.

 

EDIT: Moreover, making 0 recovery attainable by just one style is a bad idea. That style would always be the strongest by far and trump all others. If all styles can reach it, you can afford the luxury to choose whichever you prefer without feeling like you’re curbing your DPS potential. Granted, 0 recovery on a 2-hander is going to be more powerful than with DW but you’ll need to pull a few extra somersaults to achieve it—as was the case in PoE. Whether that’s worth it depends on you, and I think that is good.

Edited December 29, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[NerdCommando]

EDIT: Moreover, making 0 recovery attainable by just one style is a bad idea. 

 

Actually, 0 recovery is not attainable by the dual-wielding. It provides a multiplier, not a straight bonus. It can easily put you low and it can negate lots of the other negatives, but it can't get you in that zero zone and, actually, the more action discounts you're getting, the worse it becomes. I.e., if you have full 100% recovery, dual-wielding cuts 50% from that. But if you already have 50 only, you're getting nothing but 25. So actual speedsters (if they'll be present) won't bother with dualing as much.

[Tardigrade]

I think I agree with your edit Andrea, and I'd be fine with no styles, including dual-wielding, being able to reach 0 recovery. With the increases to recovery times relative to attack time, reduced recovery is much more powerful in Deadfire than it was in PoE1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I understand in PoE1 recovery duration was 1.66 of attack animation (for slow one-handers and two-handers). In Deadfire it's closer to 4.3 times attack duration for that class of weapons. So the relative gain of reaching zero recovery is much, much larger, and I wouldn't mind that it's not obtainable at all, but only something that approximates the relative speed gain you were able to get in PoE1.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Mathematically, what would a 30% dual weilding bonus rather than a 50% bonus do to the numbers above? Would it be enough to bring dual scepters in line with other weapons?

[AndreaColombo]

This is another good example of why ditching slow mode was a mistake. Now normal combat is slower, which makes 0 recovery more powerful, so we must ditch 0 recovery—which was never a design goal in the first place. If a change in design results in a cascade of band aids, it wasn’t a very good change.

 

I don’t like sitting through recovery and watching my DPS-oriented characters (generally more than half of my party) do nothing while a gold bar expires over their heads. If I can’t get rid of it, then I have bad/weak DPS-oriented characters; the kind of characters I’ll soon lose interest in.

Edited December 29, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Dr <3]

They should make longer attack animation and slower recovery time, to reach a ratio similar to PoE1.

As other said 0-recovery is not OP per se, but while in poe1 that meaned slight more than 2x dmg, now is between 4x and 5x dmg. That is OP.

 

And we can still observe only a minor part of the game ( no speed enchanted weapons, no high lvl abilities, a small selection of potions, ecc) so i can bet that in the full game 0 recovery will be achieveble with more or less the same difficult than poe1 or even easier ( for the happyness of Andrea)

[dunehunter]

If the attacking animation is 0.5 and you have 0 recovery time. You can attack a caster 12 times when they cast in a 3 cast time + 3 recovery time cycle....

Edited December 29, 2017 by dunehunter