Should Might stay multiplicative or return to additive?

[tinysalamander]

Give back Healing and I’ll join the additive fray

 

Additive weapon damage only and no Healing make STR a fairly poor attribute.

 

How about ±0.4 penetration bonus? I need my healing on Res

 

// Although that sounds pretty unlikely.

[JerekKruger]

When we started with the beta we had (still have until the next update) multiplicative MIG with Healing. Did anybody complain it was OP or it overshadowed other stats? I seem to recall our complaints all centered around RES’s being bad. What was the answer? To nerf MIG—and now you’re suggesting to nerf it some more because... reasons?

 

Well we don't really know what other +Damage bonuses will be available at higher levels/with better gear. It's why I am in the "on the fence" camp. I like Might being multiplicative but could definitely see a situation where it leads to problems.

[dunehunter]

I don't like Might to be a multiplier for 3 main reasons:

 

1) There are already two multipliers in POE 2, one is Lash, another is Overpenetration bonus. If we make Might a 3rd multiplier, it will make damage too high and be inconsistent with the hp we and enemies have.

 

2) Making Might a multiplier force DPSers to max it. Dex, in contrast, is not a must stats for DPSers, Dex is important for Auto Attackers, but not for Spikers, like assassins and paladins, or riposte abusers, it's a less important or even dump stats. But if Might is a multiplier, it becomes too important to not max.

 

3) Making Might an addictive will give classes who have bonus basic damage (Cipher, Rogue) a chance to pick other stats, aka provide them more choices. While at same time let those who don't have bonus basic damage (All other classes) can still be viable DPSers by maxing Might.

Edited December 1, 2017 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

I would rather make overpenetration additive and keep MIG multiplicative, to be honest.

[dunehunter]

I don't like Might to be a multiplier for 3 main reasons:

 

1) There are already two multipliers in POE 2, one is Lash, another is Overpenetration bonus. If we make Might a 3rd multiplier, it will make damage too high and be inconsistent with the hp we and enemies have.

 

2) Making Might a multiplier force DPSers to max it. Dex, in contrast, is not a must stats for DPSers, Dex is important for Auto Attackers, but not for Spikers, like assassins and paladins, or riposte abusers, it's a less important or even dump stats. But if Might is a multiplier, it becomes too important to not max.

 

3) Making Might an addictive will give classes who have bonus basic damage (Cipher, Rogue) a chance to pick other stats, aka provide them more choices. While at same time let those who don't have bonus basic damage (All other classes) can still be viable DPSers by maxing Might.

 

Forget to mention that Dex has diminishing on DPS because the more you put into it, the less u you get due to how it is calculated.

[OrangePulp]

 

I don't like Might to be a multiplier for 3 main reasons:

 

1) There are already two multipliers in POE 2, one is Lash, another is Overpenetration bonus. If we make Might a 3rd multiplier, it will make damage too high and be inconsistent with the hp we and enemies have.

 

2) Making Might a multiplier force DPSers to max it. Dex, in contrast, is not a must stats for DPSers, Dex is important for Auto Attackers, but not for Spikers, like assassins and paladins, or riposte abusers, it's a less important or even dump stats. But if Might is a multiplier, it becomes too important to not max.

 

3) Making Might an addictive will give classes who have bonus basic damage (Cipher, Rogue) a chance to pick other stats, aka provide them more choices. While at same time let those who don't have bonus basic damage (All other classes) can still be viable DPSers by maxing Might.

 

Forget to mention that Dex has diminishing on DPS because the more you put into it, the less u you get due to how it is calculated.

 

What's the calculation on that? I had thought that each point would be more valuable, as it's a reduction from 100%, and each point reduces by 3% (so if you had it down to 50%, hypothetically, another 3% reduction would be twice as valuable as when it was at 100%). Is it done differently?

[KDubya]

For healing received  I'd actually like to see it moved to Constitution. More con gets you better healing.

 

Multiplicative Might is just too good in my opinion. It trumps all other design decisions and by a large margin. Additive Might leads to more design flexibility as perception and dex compete favorably with an additive Might.

 

A helwalker will still be self buffing up to a 36 Might for a +78% damage boost which is massive. A multiplicative 1.78 is game breaking (not saying it wouldn't be really fun but it would be too much) 

[dunehunter]

For healing received  I'd actually like to see it moved to Constitution. More con gets you better healing.

 

Multiplicative Might is just too good in my opinion. It trumps all other design decisions and by a large margin. Additive Might leads to more design flexibility as perception and dex compete favorably with an additive Might.

 

A helwalker will still be self buffing up to a 36 Might for a +78% damage boost which is massive. A multiplicative 1.78 is game breaking (not saying it wouldn't be really fun but it would be too much) 

 

Yeah too many multipliers and the unpolished penetration system makes physical attack outperforms spells. Because you can make damage really high by boost these multipliers. And you can change weapon with different penetration, but for spells you cannot.

[AndreaColombo]

Overpenetration should be additive and gradual (which I believe we can mod in from the next beta build); it would keep the incentive to pursue penetration without making it overpowering.

 

I agree multiplicative MIG can get out of hand; I would be OK with MIG as it was in PoE 1, but not with additive STR. No need to punish Fighters and hybrid builds because casters aren’t good. Make casters good instead

[hilfazer]

Overpenetration should be additive and gradual (which I believe we can mod in from the next beta build); it would keep the incentive to pursue penetration without making it overpowering.

 

Hmm, could be confusing since underpenetration is multiplicative and will stay this way.

[AndreaColombo]

Do we know for sure that underpenetration is multiplicative? What other damage penalties can be tested in conjunction with it?

[theBalthazar]

I agree multiplicative MIG can get out of hand; I would be OK with MIG as it was in PoE 1, but not with additive STR. No need to punish Fighters and hybrid builds because casters aren’t good. Make casters good instead   

 

 

Note that... In POE1 most of spells had +10 accuracy...

[KDubya]

Do we know for sure that underpenetration is multiplicative? What other damage penalties can be tested in conjunction with it?

 

Looking at the detailed combat log it shows your damage being adjusted by all your normal modifiers and then that total gets hit with the 0.3 multiplier for under penetration.

[hilfazer]

Do we know for sure that underpenetration is multiplicative? What other damage penalties can be tested in conjunction with it?

 

I'm 'only' 99% sure it is. Everyone and his brother says it is very important to not have Pen below enemy armor. I never saw anyone saying +% damage bonus could be an alternative.

 

If it was additive it would not be that good for dealing with high powered attack (with big +% damage) and that is half of the reason for changing armor system.

[JerekKruger]

Note that... In POE1 most of spells had +10 accuracy...

 

Yes but most spellcasters had lower base accuracy than martial classes. Now everyone has the same base accuracy.

[OlleDenStore]

I think it should be kept as multiplicative for one simple reason. It's easy to understand. If it says DMG is increased a certain amount. It really should be that amount and not some additive value that you need a calculator to figure out. Anything else would be unfair to the casual players that don't spend all their time on this forum

If the DMG is currently too high then that is just a balancing issue. Lower the amount of DMG per point of STR if you have to, but don't obfuscate the mechanics.

[JerekKruger]

I think it should be kept as multiplicative for one simple reason. It's easy to understand. If it says DMG is increased a certain amount. It really should be that amount and not some additive value that you need a calculator to figure out. Anything else would be unfair to the casual players that don't spend all their time on this forum

If the DMG is currently too high then that is just a balancing issue. Lower the amount of DMG per point of STR if you have to, but don't obfuscate the mechanics.

 

The same argument would apply to all other damage bonuses though, and either you make them all minuscule or you have a serious problem with damage bloat.

[theBalthazar]

Where you see damage is too high ?

 

Wizard are in a catastrophic situation. You want to kill them ? : p

 

If you want nerf a thing, it is better to nerf 50 % hits to crits. (like 30 % hits to crits) And boost accuracy AND damages of spells.

 

If ONE point active abilitie = ONE point for spells (llike now) :

 

There a major problem with a disciplines barrage (Instant). VS a spell with 6 seconds + 3 recovery. With bad damages and bad accuracy.

Edited December 2, 2017 by theBalthazar

[KDubya]

Where you see damage is too high ?

 

Wizard are in a catastrophic situation. You want to kill them ? : p

 

If you want nerf a thing, it is better to nerf 50 % hits to crits. (like 30 % hits to crits) And boost accuracy AND damages of spells.

 

If ONE point active abilitie = ONE point for spells (llike now) :

 

There a major problem with a disciplines barrage (Instant). VS a spell with 6 seconds + 3 recovery. With bad damages and bad accuracy.

 

Spells do not have any damage adders to multiply with Might, they only get Might. So changing multiplicative to additive makes no difference to a spell caster.

 

Melee gets lots of damage adders.

My Witch Berserker/Soul Blade gets

• 1.48 multiplier from his base 21 Might with +5 from Frenzy. This multiplies all his other adders
  • +40% Biting Whip
  • +15% Fine Weapon
  • +25% when Blooded gets activated
  • +20% when One Stands alone gets activated
  • Total of +100% or +75% if not blooded
• His fast attack speed clubs do on average 13 damage base and 38.5 damage fully buffed (33.5 without blooded) at an attack speed of 0.3 seconds and a recovery of 0.5 seconds

In the time it takes your Wizard to cast a single spell at 3 seconds I will have had 3.75 attacks and an average damage of 125 damage done.

 

Now do the same with additive and you get 

• +148% damage fully buffed or +123% without Blooded
• Average damage of 13 base and 32.2 fully buffed and 29 damage w/o Blooded. In the 3 seconds he now only does 108.7 damage.

[theBalthazar]

Spells do not have any damage adders to multiply with Might, they only get Might. So changing multiplicative to additive makes no difference to a spell caster.

 

 

The problem is here ! You must reinforce spells. Base damage. And not the contrary.

 

 

Melee gets lots of damage adders.

 

 

You pay for it. You cannot buff, you cannot have paladin accuracy etc.

Edited December 2, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

I don't like Might to be a multiplier for 3 main reasons:

 

1) There are already two multipliers in POE 2, one is Lash, another is Overpenetration bonus. If we make Might a 3rd multiplier, it will make damage too high and be inconsistent with the hp we and enemies have.

 

2) Making Might a multiplier force DPSers to max it. Dex, in contrast, is not a must stats for DPSers, Dex is important for Auto Attackers, but not for Spikers, like assassins and paladins, or riposte abusers, it's a less important or even dump stats. But if Might is a multiplier, it becomes too important to not max.

 

3) Making Might an addictive will give classes who have bonus basic damage (Cipher, Rogue) a chance to pick other stats, aka provide them more choices. While at same time let those who don't have bonus basic damage (All other classes) can still be viable DPSers by maxing Might.

 

Forget to mention that Dex has diminishing on DPS because the more you put into it, the less u you get due to how it is calculated.

 

What's the calculation on that? I had thought that each point would be more valuable, as it's a reduction from 100%, and each point reduces by 3% (so if you had it down to 50%, hypothetically, another 3% reduction would be twice as valuable as when it was at 100%). Is it done differently?

 

 

 

Yeah I'd like to see the actual math on dexterity in this game before I really commit to a position on Might. If they've fixed the various other issues around attack speed, then Dex might be just as good as multiplicative Might / Strength, except boosting both spell and weapon damage (since action speed passively buffs everything you're doing). 

[AndreaColombo]

In the time it takes your Wizard to cast a single spell at 3 seconds I will have had 3.75 attacks and an average damage of 125 damage done.

 

Average damage of 13 base and 32.2 fully buffed and 29 damage w/o Blooded. In the 3 seconds he now only does 108.7 damage.

 

The difference doesn't seem all too dramatic. It's 17 points of damage distributed on 3 attacks, or 5.6 damage per attack. Hardly game-breaking.

 

The problem is here ! You must reinforce spells. Base damage. And not the contrary.

 

Agreed. If the problem is that casters suck, you can make everyone else suck just as much or you can make casters as good as everyone else. I think it's clear which of the two makes for the most fun game

[fiddlesticks]

What's the calculation on that? I had thought that each point would be more valuable, as it's a reduction from 100%, and each point reduces by 3% (so if you had it down to 50%, hypothetically, another 3% reduction would be twice as valuable as when it was at 100%). Is it done differently?

 

In PoE1, action speed is calculated using the following formula:

 

(Time without Dex adjustment) / (1 + Bonus from Dex).

 

To make an easy example, let's assume a single action takes exactly one second to perform without factoring in the bonus/malus you get from Dexterity. Now take a look at the following graph:

 

 

The x-axis shows the Dexterity score, the y-axis the actual time it takes to perform the action in seconds. As you can see, the value of an additional point of Dex decreases the more Dex you already have. Going from 10 to 40 Dex roughly cuts the time in half, but going from 10 to 70 Dex only cuts it by about two-thirds.

Edited December 2, 2017 by fiddlesticks

[JerekKruger]

@fiddlesticks - you're comparing the wrong values. The important value is not the Action Duration (the time it takes to perform an action), but rather the Action Rate* (number of actions performed per second). This value scales exactly as you would expect i.e. going from Dexterity 10 to Dexterity 20 increases your Action Rate by 30%, and going from Dexterity 10 to Dexterity 30 increases it by 60%.

 

To show this let's assume, for simplicity, that an action takes 1 second. Then at Dexterity 10 you perform that action once per second. At Dexterity 20 that action takes 1/1.3 seconds and hence you perform it 1.3/1 = 1.3 times per second. At Dexterity 30 that action takes 1/1.6 seconds and hence you perform it 1.6/1 = 1.6 times per second.

 

Thus the absolute value of each point of Dexterity is the same i.e. an increase in Action Rate of 3%. Of course the relative value of +1 Dexterity does indeed diminish e.g. 1.3 is 30% more than 1, but 1.6 is only 23.1% more than 1.3.

 

Actually the story isn't quite that simple thanks to the delay portion of an action cycle. You see, each action cycle is made up of several parts: the action itself, the recovery, sometimes the reload, and the delay. The first three of those are affected by Dexterity exactly as described above, however the delay is always 5 frames long no matter what your Dexterity is. This does in fact cause the absolute value of additional points of Dexterity to diminish, although if you actually run the numbers for realistic PoE values (Dexterity between 2 and 30) the difference is fairly minimal.

 

*In Pillars of Eternity this is called Attack Speed, although it applies to actions other than attacks and doesn't involve distance travelled so I prefer Action Rate.

 

EDIT: as a side note, if the bonus to Action Duration (not Action Rate) from additional points of Dexterity didn't diminish then you would, with high enough Dexterity, reach negative Action Duration. Hopefully it should be clear that this would be unwanted behaviour.

Edited December 2, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Stormhammer117]

I vote for multiplicative Might as it allows for more creativity with damage builds.  I like building characters with a ton of different modifiers and getting an impressive result.