Should Might stay multiplicative or return to additive?

[KDubya]

This would also apply to the new Resolve which will be for spells.

 

For the math challenged:

• Multiplicative means that the damage total gets multiplied by the Might value. Example you hit for 10 damage and have +100% from Sneak attack, soul whip and an enchantment, your Might is 26 which is +48%. Your 10 damage gets increased by 100% to 20 and then multiplied by 1.48 (your Might) for a total of 30 damage done.
• Additive means that your Might damage gets summed up with everything else. Same example as above has your base 10 being increased by 148% for a total of 25 damage. To get to the same damage you'd need Might to be 43 instead of 26.

 

PoE was additive.

 

The implications of an Additive system is that Might becomes less important the more modifiers that you have. Sneak attack adding +50% makes the 3% per point from Might not so important. This leads to character designs that leave Might at base and using those points elsewhere. Characters with few damage modifiers like Spell Casters (I believe only Might, soon to be Resolve, actually affects spell damage) need as high of a Might as they can as its the only increase available.

 

A Multiplicative system makes it so that the more damage modifiers that you have the more you want to have Might as it multiplies a larger number. Here the Rogue with his +50% sneak attack want to have as large of a Might as he can as it will pay off. This makes character design concentrate on raising Might as much as possible if you want to do even more damage.

 

I believe that an Additive system lends to more interesting character build decisions as maxing Might is not the answer to everything like it is now. Points not added to Might can be used on dexterity or perception or in increasing your defenses.

 

Perhaps Might, if we revert back to an Additive system, needs to be increased to 4% or even 5% per point to raise its relative value and make it a harder decision. At 3% anyone with sneak attack or soul whip is better putting the points elsewhere.

[dunehunter]

I prefer an additive, now Might is too important for DPSer because it boosts your damage too much imo.

[AndreaColombo]

I like it multiplicative, obviously

 

I won’t die if it goes back to additive, though.

[Climhazzard]

Hmmm well if they end up splitting the damage between strength and resolve it might need to stay as it is so that hybrid builds don't suffer to much?  Tbh I don't care as long as attributes have close to equal value, but if strength or resolve end up being much more important than dex or perception then it'll be messed up.

[KDubya]

I like it multiplicative, obviously

 

I won’t die if it goes back to additive, though.

 

In the case of your Lady of Pain:

• In the multiplicative system you are going with a Helwalker/Devoted in order to really maximize the Might gaining up to another +10 from wounds.
• If the system went back to additive would you still want a Helwalker or would a Soul Blade become the top contender due to Biting Whip?

Which would make for a more interesting build?

[KDubya]

Hmmm well if they end up splitting the damage between strength and resolve it might need to stay as it is so that hybrid builds don't suffer to much?  Tbh I don't care as long as attributes have close to equal value, but if strength or resolve end up being much more important than dex or perception then it'll be messed up.

 

With spells not having any multipliers besides the new Resolve it doesn't really matter whether its additive of multiplicative, you will want as high a Resolve as you can get in order to do as much damage with spells as possible.

 

Strength being additive would actually help hybrids such as a Cipher as they have one of the biggest damage adders with Biting Whip. They could leave Strength at base 10 and still do great damage via Soul Whip and spend points on Resolve so that their Cipher powers would hit hard.

 

Melee monsters such as the Witch Berserker/Soul Blade would still be melee monsters with an additive system, they just wouldn't be breaking the damage scale as they currently can between a 21 Might that gets increased to 26 via berserk and then multiplying a list of damage adders like Biting Whip, One Stands Alone, Bloodied and enchantment.

[dunehunter]

Or let Might has a diminishing effect to damage, same as Dex.

[AndreaColombo]

KDubya: I really like the Devoted/Soulblade combo, but for my main I’d still take the Hekwalker. The Monk class has too many good abilities and it synergizes too well with Fighter to let go of it.

 

In PoE Might was additive, as you rightfully point out, and the LoP still went for max Might. It’s in the spirit of the build

[AndreaColombo]

An additional thought: of healing is taken out from Might (which we know it is) and the damage bonus is switched to additive, Fighter builds in general are heavily penalized. Not only do they lose a bonus to Constant Recovery, they also deal substantially less damage.

 

If Might ends up restored to what it was in the first game (and is in the current beta build), I can live with additive though I prefer multiplicative.

[KDubya]

An additional thought: of healing is taken out from Might (which we know it is) and the damage bonus is switched to additive, Fighter builds in general are heavily penalized. Not only do they lose a bonus to Constant Recovery, they also deal substantially less damage.

 

If Might ends up restored to what it was in the first game (and is in the current beta build), I can live with additive though I prefer multiplicative.

 

If Strength becomes additive then there is less need to max it and those points could be placed in Resolve for better healing/Constant Recovery or into another stat like Perception or Dex for more accuracy or attack speed. As it is its just too easy to max Might and then spend the points on whatever is left.

 

Currently I find melee to be great at its job, maybe even too good. Especially dual wielding fast weapons (I'm avoiding the heavier one handers as they are obviously bugged and broken) when you have the Penetration handled via a Skald, Devoted or Berserk. Even my Inquisitor Goldpact/Soul Blade in plate is attacking 0.5 seconds with a 1.5 second recovery with no speed boosts or dex bonus. When the Witch Berserker/Soul Blade gets to rocking with Frenzy, Bloodlust, Biting Whip, Blooded and One Stands Alone its less than a second combined attack and recovery. Add in 50% hit to crit and **** just blows up  

[AndreaColombo]

Yeah but I like max-MIG builds; why gimp them? They’re fun

[Aramintai]

I've question - will Resolve be multiplicative or additive when it comes to spells? I think it should be the same as Strength when it comes to counting damage.

[KDubya]

I've question - will Resolve be multiplicative or additive when it comes to spells? I think it should be the same as Strength when it comes to counting damage.

 

I'm pretty sure that Might, or Resolve in the next patch, are the only modifiers on spells so its all the same as there is nothing else to add to or multiply except for the base damage of the spell itself.

 

Now if 'Sneak Attack' applied to spells that'd make a big difference and be quite interesting. Or Sworn Enemy/Marked Prey or any other type of damage booster.

[Madscientist]

I think that might (or strengh and resolve after the next patch) should be additive like in PoE1.

As you have said it: In PoE1 might was just one damage modifier among others so some chars could live without it. In my rogue build https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93566-class-build-the-fast-assassin-dual-wielding-rogue/I have calculated that the damage difference between a rogue with zero might bonus and 50% might bonus would only be about 15%. (The exact numbers depend on your equipment, buffs, . . . so this is just a rough guess). In the new system where might is a multiplicative factor, the difference would be 50%. This is most importent for chars with lots of damage modifiers ( e.g. rogue/cipher with sneak attack + backstab + biting whip ).

For casters it does not matter since might (or resolve ) will be the only source of damage most of the time. With the absence of Talents like scion of flames, the difference between additive and multiplicative stats is zero.

 

I think healing modifiers were already multiplicative in PoE1 but I am not sure. Boeroer or MaxQuest could you please confirm (or falsify) this ?

[JerekKruger]

I'm not really sure. I like the idea that, by making Might multiplicative, it sets attributes apart from other bonuses and makes attributes a little more fundamental. That said, unlike Dexterity which has a sort of natural diminishing returns built in, Might could quickly spiral out of control if stacked on top of enough other bonuses.

 

I think healing modifiers were already multiplicative in PoE1 but I am not sure. Boeroer or MaxQuest could you please confirm (or falsify) this ?

 

I'm fairly certain they were additive, but there were so few other +healing modifiers available it made very little difference.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Personally I'm leaning multiplicative because

 

1) Might has lost its role of "punching through" enemy DR; with the penetration system, big damage numbers are less necessary, making might's bonus less necessary, and

 

2) Dexterity is multiplicative, so for parallel utility between stats, etc.

 

But I'm open to persuasion. Like, Dex doesn't give a 3% bonus to damage -- it's slightly less because of irreducible frames and so forth. So this makes Might clearly better than Dex, which isn't good either.

[theBalthazar]

Additive : good with double check magic + physical.

 

If you stay in separate way like now with resolve and strength, multiplicative finish with a perfect purpose.

Edited December 1, 2017 by theBalthazar

[hilfazer]

Additive, easily.

 

Cipher is going to need some love once Strength hits beta. With additive dmg bonus Cipher will not need Strength bonus as much.

Rogue will also need Strength less and that's good because this class does not strike me as exceptionally mighty. They are more of an opportunists.

 

Obsidian went crazy with damage bloat because they have % damage reduction now. But if player can penetrate enemy armor that % reduction does exactly nothing. And the game is designed around player being able to penetrate armor - this is why being below enemy armor gave huge damage penalty.

Edited December 1, 2017 by hilfazer

[AndreaColombo]

Changing to additive because a questionable change to attributes makes Ciphers suck more than they already did would be poor design, though.

[hilfazer]

Changing to additive because a questionable change to attributes makes Ciphers suck more than they already did would be poor design, though.

 

That's not the only reason and also not primary one. Primary reason is preventing damage bloat.

Perhaps i should have ordered my post differently.

[Dr <3]

I think that we need more testing aboit this, but i'm leaning to additive nontheless. Just because classes with intrinsic high dmg boost ( rogue/ chiper) that are going to max out might will be able to rech extremly high numbers.

Take a muliclass rogue/chiper:

Sneak attack + dethblows + soul whip + bitting whip + something else --> probably over ~> 250% dmg. Then you multiply for high might ( let's say 20 --> x1,3), and then you could even multiply again for another 1,3 if you have high penetration. I think that the whole thing could escalate way too high.

 

In the old system it was the opposite: if you had intrinsic high dmg boost you could even go for *less* strenght, since that had a lower relative value. I mean: sneak attack alone was worth alone about ~16-17 points of might

Edited December 1, 2017 by Dr <3

[AndreaColombo]

Give back Healing and I’ll join the additive fray

 

Additive weapon damage only and no Healing make STR a fairly poor attribute.

Edited December 1, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Dr <3]

Give back Healing and I’ll join the additive fray

 

Additive weapon damage only and no Healing make STR a fairly poor attribute.

For your build is still op, you know it

[JerekKruger]

I mean, if Healing is removed from Might, Might should surely become exponential right? Otherwise it's just useless.

[AndreaColombo]

Precisely

 

When we started with the beta we had (still have until the next update) multiplicative MIG with Healing. Did anybody complain it was OP or it overshadowed other stats? I seem to recall our complaints all centered around RES’s being bad. What was the answer? To nerf MIG—and now you’re suggesting to nerf it some more because... reasons?

Edited December 1, 2017 by AndreaColombo