SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

[MortyTheGobbo]

That said, I agree it would provide a nice extra mechanic for restricting characters who dump strength.

 

It never has before, not sure why it would suddenly start now.

[Wormerine]

C'mon, in a game where you know you might get more companions or run into unexpected situations where that particular axe might be useful, all the while it has all the glow and polish of a soulbound item, you know full well that he item *might* come handy at some point in the game. You're making it sound like the player is a complete imbecile.

 

I am not necessarily assuming that player is a dummy, but I do assume he/she is not familiar with RPG conventions. And if it’s assumed that you will keep every shiny item and drop common items:

1) why limit you carry weight at all if you need to have enough space anyway to carry all the shiny stuff.

 

2) why drop common items if you are expected to not pick them up.

 

In the end PoE doesn’t have “strategic layer” which would benefit from restrictions on what you can carry with you. In one of the other threads I made a statement I am really proud of, so I will repeat it here:

 

A failure, perma death or permanent loss in a game is a good thing only if it’s leads to interesting gameplay, rather than cut interesting gameplay from the game. Does limiting how much you can carrry lead to meaningful and engaging decision making, or does it limit amount of customization/builds you can do or just add extra dead time between realising you should change strategy (aka. Swap equipment) and being able to do it (jog to the keep and back again).

 

EDIT: also, what the hell are you talking about, that Rick Dangerous is an awesome game! Now I know what we're going to play when celebrating new years eve drunk :D

 

EDIT EDIT: 7840 on my fourth or so attempt, how on earth can this masterpiece scar anyone? xD

:-D it is THE game of my childhood. Tried to give it ago a while go and “wow!” My tolerance for insta death traps you couldn’t possibly see coming is much lower than it was when I was 5ve. I hope you won’t run out of alcohol before beating it;-) Edited December 26, 2017 by Wormerine

[Ninjamestari]

In the end PoE doesn’t have “strategic layer” which would benefit from restrictions on what you can carry with you. In one of the other threads I made a statement I am really proud of, so I will repeat it here:

A failure, perma death or permanent loss in a game is a good thing only if it’s leads to interesting gameplay, rather than cut interesting gameplay from the game. Does limiting how much you can carrry lead to meaningful and engaging decision making, or does it limit amount of customization/builds you can do or just add extra dead time between realising you should change strategy (aka. Swap equipment) and being able to do it (jog to the keep and back again).

 

Ya, perhaps. I just wish there *was* a strategic layer to the game :D

 

Anyway, I think having to face a tough encounter without the benefits of said unique item counts as interesting gameplay. The point is, the restrictions could *add* that layer of strategic gameplay, and not only would you have to decide what loot to take and leave, but also what kind of equipment you prepare your adventure with, you know, potions, scrolls etcetera. I admit that dropping ordinary stuff seems kinda pointless, but that's the beauty of having high strength characters; they can carry more loot and have to be less picky about the stuff they carry back home, which would again tie in with that layer of game-play, and if you choose a party without a high STR character, you'll have to adjust your decision making accordingly, just like if you lack an arcane spellcaster or a healer. It's true though that for any of this stuff to really have an impact, resting would need to be restricted more as well, and there couldn't be any out of combat passive regenerations by default. I always liked regeneration being something really special that you really would have to work for, as it is such a powerful ability in more strategic games where limited resources are an actual issue.

 

And don't worry, the guy who hosts the party has had a rather rough few months at work, and he's been whining for quite a while on how he wants to get wasted at new years, I bet we're all passed out long before we run out of booze. Whether or not we can beat the game in that condition is another thing entirely 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Adventurer]

I know that i might be going against the stream here but I was really annoyed by the might stat in poe 1 ! (muscle wizards )

 

Resolve always been a dump stat especially for power gamers so i welcome the change to make it way more meaningful for caster builds

 

I really hope the developers wont cave in again. As i have seen in other posts some people complain about this change but at the same time would not be against to give I believe it was the deflection bonus to eighter INT or PER those two stats are already plenty useful as they are

 

The one stat that really needed a buff here was resolve wich they tried to adress and i think obsidian did a good job (at least on the drawing board i dont have beta access) the one stat that still could use a slight buff beside resolve is constitution in my opinion

[Osvir]

I know that i might be going against the stream here but I was really annoyed by the might stat in poe 1 ! (muscle wizards )

 

Resolve always been a dump stat especially for power gamers so i welcome the change to make it way more meaningful for caster builds

 

I really hope the developers wont cave in again. As i have seen in other posts some people complain about this change but at the same time would not be against to give I believe it was the deflection bonus to eighter INT or PER those two stats are already plenty useful as they are

 

The one stat that really needed a buff here was resolve wich they tried to adress and i think obsidian did a good job (at least on the drawing board i dont have beta access) the one stat that still could use a slight buff beside resolve is constitution in my opinion

Of course, but now you just simply shift the dump stat from Resolve to Strength for Casters/Power Gamers.

 

So it's not really any different in any particular way, unless you play a specific type of Melee-Caster hybrid (for example: Druid with Shapeshifting).

 

I did try out a Multi-Class Transmuter(Wizard)/Fighter(Devoted) with this spread in Attributes:

 

Strength 14 (+1 Living Lands) = 15

Constitution 12

Dexerity 13

Perception 10

Intellect 16

Resolve 12

 

I could probably optimize it much more... I also don't think I even need Resolve for this sort of build at all (Spell Damage~ Don't think Conjured weapons are affected by it...?).

 

I choose Disciplined Barrage and Concelhauts Parasitic Staff as my main weapons and in just one fight the damage is great. Highest single target damage 55,4. In comparison that's, surprisingly, the Mercenary Priest who is closest, with 44.9. Might be from a Spell cast though.

 

Battlemage: 5 Crits and 8 Hits, ~430 total damage, ~55 damage single target

Merc Fighter: 2 Crits, 10 Hits, ~180 total damage, ~24 damage single target

Merc Rogue: 8 Crits and 12 Hits, ~340 total damage, ~24 damage single target

Merc Wizard: 4 Crits and 17 Hits, ~290 total damage, ~35 damage single target

Merc Priest: 6 Crits and 59 Hits, ~360 total damage, ~45 damage single target

 

Stacking. Two-Handed Weapon Style, Devoted with Quarterstaff proficiency, and then some defensive spells (Arcane Veil, Infuse with Vital Essence, Spirit Shield, Concelhauts Corrosive Siphon). That's the jist of it~ preeeetty strong. Also Pike Weapon Proficiency~ but don't know/think you can get to the level needed in Beta to reach that Spell level (a Multiclass can't even get last tier spells? Because there's a Pike Conjured weapon at the end).

[JerekKruger]

Might as a concept is inferior

Why?

 

and only the small minority of players who have some personal stake in Might truly share your view.

I love it when people make claims about being in the majority when they can't possibly know that.

 

Also what personal stake could we possibly have? Shares in the Great Might Company? We have a personal preference yes, as do those who prefer the new strength/resolve system.

[Ninjamestari]

 

Might as a concept is inferior

Why?

 

and only the small minority of players who have some personal stake in Might truly share your view.

I love it when people make claims about being in the majority when they can't possibly know that.

 

Also what personal stake could we possibly have? Shares in the Great Might Company? We have a personal preference yes, as do those who prefer the new strength/resolve system.

 

 

- The reasons the concept of Might is inferior have been explained so many times now by me and others, in this very thread no less, that I must assume you already know and simply pretend that the answer doesn't exist.

 

- The people who want Might first did so simply because they wanted to be perceived as different and sophisticated, and now they have argued so long for it that they cannot change their 'side' even though they know that they are wrong. This stuff should be obvious to anyone who isn't a complete loon.

[Sedrefilos]

 they cannot change their 'side' even though they know that they are wrong. This stuff should be obvious to anyone who isn't a complete loon.

 

There is no right and wrong here. It's just a way to play the game. Like Pillars 1 was unplayable because of that. Some like it generic others like to try new stuff. What can we do?

You think the devs were "complete loons" for designing the game like that, I presume?

Edited December 27, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[JerekKruger]

- The reasons the concept of Might is inferior have been explained so many times now by me and others, in this very thread no less, that I must assume you already know and simply pretend that the answer doesn't exist.

 

People have given reasons, those reasons aren't convincing to me and, presumably, others who are against the change.

 

- The people who want Might first did so simply because they wanted to be perceived as different and sophisticated, and now they have argued so long for it that they cannot change their 'side' even though they know that they are wrong. This stuff should be obvious to anyone who isn't a complete loon.

 

Wow, you really do have an impressive knowledge of other peoples inner thoughts and motivations 

 

When you have to resort to "I know most people agree with me" and "the people who disagree with me are being dishonest" it's time to admit your position isn't as strong as you'd like others to think it is. As Sedrefilos says this is largely a matter of preference: some people disliked Might governing spell damage and would prefer something more traditional, others like what Obsidian did with Might and want it to remain. Neither side is right and neither is wrong and, ultimately, Obsidian will have to make a decision one way or the other. I just want to make sure they're aware that there are people who liked Might, since until this change only those who didn't were vocal.

Edited December 26, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Wormerine]

As a person so far liking change to strength/resolve I won’t argue there was clarity and elegance in “might” stat. But I would also like to see more disctinction to weapons, though luckily modals make up the fact that all of them pretty much play the same.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I'm not married to the concept of a "might" attribute, but it's a solution to a very common problem with systems that use a traditional "strength" one. Though not a very elegant one. I feel like merging strength and constitution, then spreading damage bonuses for different sources thereof might have been better... but it's a few years too late for that.

 

Besides, splitting damage types across different attributes begs the question of where we draw the line. A greatsword uses strength for damage, but what about a rapier? Dagger? Sabre?

Edited December 26, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[No idea]

When both physical prowess and magic "power" depended on Might it made sense to name it Might. Now that it is gone it makes far more sense to call Might Strenght. A different thing is the balance issues that arise due to the change on relevant stat.

[Ninjamestari]

What balance issues? There was no balance to begin with because the basic concepts of the system are flawed! When you have three stats that essentially do the same thing, you know you've got a problem (Might is + damage, Dexterity is faster attacks and spells, which is essentially the same as +damage, perception increases accuracy, which is again, essentially +damage). This is why you want to tie the stats to real-life concepts instead of arbitrary abstract ones, reality gives you easy access to concepts for consequences if you lack certain stats or if certain stats are incredibly high. This is why the concepts of D&D stats work so well, and that isn't some subjective 'my point of view', that is objective logical reality that doesn't change, which is why I find it so hard to believe that intelligent and thinking people could honestly dismiss that with only vague non-arguments like "just another way to play the game".

 

Each stat needs a unique purpose, and that cannot be found by twiddling around the same mechanical gaming-concepts, you need to create new ones, or just copy old ones that served this purpose extremely well and for some bizarre reasons got cut from the game.

 

And all this has been explained, time and time and time again. So the only logical explanation, given the assumption that people here are intelligent, thinking individuals, is that their reasons aren't entirely honest and rational, but rather that they've got their egos somehow bound to the whole argument. Besides, that's the case most of the time in so called "rational arguments" anyway, it usually still boils down to bruised egos, so making that guess isn't that much of a stretch.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Sedrefilos]

@Ninjamestari, there is no real life tight on how magic works. If you're intelligent, as you say, you should know that. It can work with strength (I don't care about stat names, only their function), dexterity, resolve, body heat, bone mass or farts (yeah, in South Park TSOT you use fart power for magic - why not?).

Thus, the only illogical thing about might (or strength) is how it affects guns. If you want to argue about that it's ok by me but saying might is no good for magic effetcs is equally logical as resolve or intellect is good for magic effects.

 

The only real issue here is the design philosophy: do you design around traditional D&D dump-stats mentality or you go for the opposite? You pick one, stick with it and design around that. This new change, eh, it might work better for Deadfire, true, but there might be other ways to buff resolve without moving away from your initial design goal (no dump stats - no useless build, which D&D that you constatly praise, is full of). 

 

And DnD may get away with the above problems because it is a tabletop game and you get to roleplay whoever the hell you want and the DM and team plays around that so you can have a great time since the campaigns are constatly evolving and designed around specific players/characters. But when you have a standard video game you have to make it anjoyable for all those who care about it and the DnD style is, maybe, the worst design for such a game. Its system is one that translate badly into video games imo.

[MortyTheGobbo]

What balance issues? There was no balance to begin with because the basic concepts of the system are flawed! When you have three stats that essentially do the same thing, you know you've got a problem (Might is + damage, Dexterity is faster attacks and spells, which is essentially the same as +damage, perception increases accuracy, which is again, essentially +damage). This is why you want to tie the stats to real-life concepts instead of arbitrary abstract ones, reality gives you easy access to concepts for consequences if you lack certain stats or if certain stats are incredibly high. This is why the concepts of D&D stats work so well, and that isn't some subjective 'my point of view', that is objective logical reality that doesn't change, which is why I find it so hard to believe that intelligent and thinking people could honestly dismiss that with only vague non-arguments like "just another way to play the game".

 

Just because you dismiss your opponents' arguments as "vague non-argument" doesn't mean that's all there is. It just means that's all your acknowledge, while repeatedly asserting things you believe to be true.

 

The only one I see here with a personal, ego-driven stake in the argument is you. You've propped D&D attributes up on a pedestal and aggressively attack any departure from them, while praising them for virtues they don't have and have never had.

Edited December 27, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Ninjamestari]

 

What balance issues? There was no balance to begin with because the basic concepts of the system are flawed! When you have three stats that essentially do the same thing, you know you've got a problem (Might is + damage, Dexterity is faster attacks and spells, which is essentially the same as +damage, perception increases accuracy, which is again, essentially +damage). This is why you want to tie the stats to real-life concepts instead of arbitrary abstract ones, reality gives you easy access to concepts for consequences if you lack certain stats or if certain stats are incredibly high. This is why the concepts of D&D stats work so well, and that isn't some subjective 'my point of view', that is objective logical reality that doesn't change, which is why I find it so hard to believe that intelligent and thinking people could honestly dismiss that with only vague non-arguments like "just another way to play the game".

 

Just because you dismiss your opponents' arguments as "vague non-argument" doesn't mean that's all there is. It just means that's all your acknowledge, while repeatedly asserting things you believe to be true.

 

The only one I see here with a personal, ego-driven stake in the argument is you. You've propped D&D attributes up on a pedestal and aggressively attack any departure from them, while praising them for virtues they don't have and have never had.

 

 

What you just did there was an example of a vague non-argument. No specific points, no reasoning, absolutely nothing of substance. Just empty platitudes. I've provided the logic and the reasoning you need to understand *why* D&D is the gold standard, and all you've done in return is give me this bull****. Let me be specific so you understand this situation: your 'arguments' aren't non-arguments because I dismiss them, I dismiss your arguments because they *are* indeed non-arguments.

 

EDIT: in fact, *you* have dismissed every single argument I've made, and then you have the gall to accuse me of dismissing yours. I mean what you're doing is simply appalling, you ought to be ashamed. Just because I refuse to kiss your ass after you lower yourself to speak with us mere mortals in your divine righteousness, doesn't mean I'm not right. About everything.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[MortyTheGobbo]

I've been providing you with arguments in the other thread on the subject, and so have others. In return, you mostly gave us insults and repeated demands that either we agree with your absolutist statements or are stupid, delusional etc. You really don't have the moral or intellectual high ground here. You're getting unreasonably angry about fictional numbers in a fictional video game and trying to paint others as the emotional, unreasonable ones.

Edited December 27, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Ninjamestari]

@Ninjamestari, there is no real life tight on how magic works. If you're intelligent, as you say, you should know that. It can work with strength (I don't care about stat names, only their function), dexterity, resolve, body heat, bone mass or farts (yeah, in South Park TSOT you use fart power for magic - why not?).

Thus, the only illogical thing about might (or strength) is how it affects guns. If you want to argue about that it's ok by me but saying might is no good for magic effetcs is equally logical as resolve or intellect is good for magic effects.

 

The only real issue here is the design philosophy: do you design around traditional D&D dump-stats mentality or you go for the opposite? You pick one, stick with it and design around that. This new change, eh, it might work better for Deadfire, true, but there might be other ways to buff resolve without moving away from your initial design goal (no dump stats - no useless build, which D&D that you constatly praise, is full of). 

 

And DnD may get away with the above problems because it is a tabletop game and you get to roleplay whoever the hell you want and the DM and team plays around that so you can have a great time since the campaigns are constatly evolving and designed around specific players/characters. But when you have a standard video game you have to make it anjoyable for all those who care about it and the DnD style is, maybe, the worst design for such a game. Its system is one that translate badly into video games imo.

 

Yeah, the magic stuff was bad sentence structure on my part, but it is 'reality' in the context of the fantasy setting. Wizards do carry around spellbooks and their powers are indeed called spells, which they read from books, which they have learned through arduous study. This is all defined in the game lore, PoE doesn't have fart magic.

 

What you don't understand is that D&D isn't "dump stat mentality", it's actually quite the opposite. The mechanics as they are represented in video games fail to represent that, but the concepts behind them definitely punish 'dump stats' heavily. I mean, I've tried to explain the distinction between the mathematical representation of the stats and the concept behind them in several posts now, it can't be that difficult to grasp.

 

And the D&D automatically translates badly to video-games simply isn't true, not when talking about the concepts themselves. The fact that they have been previously translated very badly is another issue. I mean, no one here wants to see AD&D stats, but 3rd edition stats already work a lot better, especially if you take the more modern point-buy system that prevents you from lowering a stat below 8 and has progressive costs beyond 14.

 

The fact is, I don't think that you actually understand what you want, you cannot have six different stats and not have some stats that are more important for certain types of characters than others, which if you're allowed to distribute points freely will lead to ridiculous min-maxing, that is inevitable. What you need to do is design the stats in a way that severely punish dump stats, and D&D concepts offer an incredibly easy and straightforward, and IMMERSIVE way to do that. What you're arguing is that "because D&D isn't god-like-perfection, we must choose this vastly inferior concept that offers none of the benefits of the D&D one."

 

EDIT: I'm not saying that I want D&D stats, what I'm saying is that through their connection to reality, they posses properties that would solve every single problem the current system has.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[MaxQuest]

- The people who want Might first did so simply because they wanted to be perceived as different and sophisticated, and now they have argued so long for it that they cannot change their 'side' even though they know that they are wrong. This stuff should be obvious to anyone who isn't a complete loon.

Uhm. Using bulverism followed by appeal to shame doesn't look really efficient in making a point.

[Amigo345]

Yeah, one could question the reasoning behind reinvention of the wheel and creation of the new rule set. I mean D&D system has been around for years. It works. Why make something different? Actually there are other systems AFAIK - Drakensang, Pathfinder. They look kinda similar.

 

The answer is probalby business related - licensing, money, etc. So they went with their own ruleset. Here's another question - does it need to be complex? Like for example take a look at Dragon Age Origins. I think it's overrated but it's a nice game nevertheless. Obviously it's roots are in D&D but does it have a complex new ruleset? No, it doesn't. It has a simple system of skills and classes which works for that specific game.

 

As I see it what they wanted with POE was to create a game with rules not so complex and overwhelming as D&D but at the same time quite similar to D&D. Have they succeded? Well obviosuly it worked. POE was a success. This ruleset is not going anywhere. They are going to continue to reiterate and work on it. The trick is to look at at and see not D&D but just a set of rules for this specific game. Enjoy the game.

[MaxQuest]

I mean D&D system has been around for years. It works. Why make something different?

Josh goes in-detail about this during his presentation here.

And before that, he talks about attributes in D&D2, AD&D and D&D3.x.

[Ninjamestari]

A foolish goal if there ever was one. No bad builds can only happen if your choices have next to no consequences, which is in essence the least interesting way to make an RPG. I think Josh among others have realized this mistake.

[Wormerine]

A foolish goal if there ever was one. No bad builds can only happen if your choices have next to no consequences, which is in essence the least interesting way to make an RPG. I think Josh among others have realized this mistake.

 

Ambitious, not foolish. An idea that your choice of attributes should change the way your class plays rather than making it unplayable is a good one. If picking a class forces you to choose certain attributes, than there is no point of an attribute system as class already defined it. Later D&D edition made the system better, but frankly the whole thing is extremely convoluted. 

 

Never played PnP D&D but as much as I love IE games and NWN2 the system doesn't really translated well into real time cRPG. Searching for new way of doing things (even if it creates new problems) is the only way forward I can think of.

[Ninjamestari]

Doesn't mean you've got to start completely from scratch, searching for a new way of doing things doesn't mean you have to throw out the basics. If you don't build upon what already is, you're not really making any progress, you're just changing stuff aimlessly. I mean, the guys who made D&D had a vision, and that vision was a good one, PoE attributes on the other hand obviously lack one, as the stats are so disconnected from the fantasy setting as can be, they're nothing but combat modifiers that give zero identity to the characters. If you design without a clear vision, you're doomed to failure. There's no reason to stumble aimlessly in the dark when the D&D boys have already mapped and lit the way; obviously you don't have to do copy-paste, but you at least need to adopt the original philosophy of what the stats mean, and the mechanical meaning can be derived from there. In D&D your character's abilities affect every single aspect of the gameplay, in PoE they're merely the indication of whether you're a tank, a dps, a healer/buffer or a controller, that's pretty much everything there is to them. It's not as bad as the holy trinity in modern MMOS, but it's not much better.

 

And still, no bad builds means there's absolutely no consequence to your stat choices, and you might as well let your cat do your build for you.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Wormerine]

Many things I disagree with but I will give you that: PoE attributes only mostly combat. Overall, PoE systems seem to support a very seperate combat/exploration/interaction design with different “aspects” of you character interacting with one of those branches, but rarely with multiple. That is a flaw of the design making those branches of gameplay feel more seperate. Probably comes from following IE games design which barely utilised your character beyond combat (with exception of Torment using stats in conversations and Icewind Dale 2). PoE expands on that design rather than remaking it.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Wormerine