Resolve! Huh, What is it good for?

[Climhazzard]

Assuming the changes go forward, I think Strength should stay for summoned weapons. Flavour-wise, they're supposed to be physical objects that are conjured into existence. Perhaps some exceptions for things like Kakaloth's Blights. Mechanics-wise, would it not stop melee wizards from being uber-tanks, since they have to split between weapon damage and the deflection boost/traditional spell damage? Though were I to make a melee summoned weapons wizard, I'd probably find the damage increase from Might to be more worth it than the bump in Deflection from Resolve.

 

I wasn't around for the PoE beta/early patches, but from what I heard Deflection used to be governed by Per? Anybody remember why that was changed? I feel like moving Deflection to Per wouldn't make it too OP, especially since Per-based Interrupts are out.

 

When PoE was first released both perception and resolve governed deflection but it allowed for builds to stack a lot of deflection.

[KingDiamond]

 

 

A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

You are assuming wrongly that all spellcasters have 18 resolve. Give 18 resolve to your melee character if you want them to have higher deflection. 

[Aramintai]

 

 

 

A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

You are assuming wrongly that all spellcasters have 18 resolve. Give 18 resolve to your melee character if you want them to have higher deflection. 

 

For melee classes there is no point in pumping Resolve other than deflection, so not many builds will want to sacrifice their recommended attributes for Resolve. That's why with this new system most melee classes (except fighter) will have inferior deflection than your average spellacaster. Spellcasters, on the other hand, don't have to sacrifice anything for Resolve as it's already gonna be their recommended attribute. Combine that with the fact that if you wanna stay pure spellcaster you don't need Strength as well, so you can spend more points on Constitution and make your average spellcaster an above average tank. Just below fighter in fact.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Aramintai

[Skaddix]

 

Summoned weapons will still be governed by Strength. 

Weird.

 

 

 

Balance I suppose in theory since Resolve affects Deflection it be a God Stat for Conjuration Wizard. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 

A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

You are assuming wrongly that all spellcasters have 18 resolve. Give 18 resolve to your melee character if you want them to have higher deflection. 

 

For melee classes there is no point in pumping Resolve other than deflection, so not many builds will want to sacrifice their recommended attributes for Resolve. That's why with this new system most melee classes (except fighter) will have inferior deflection than your average spellacaster. Spellcasters, on the other hand, don't have to sacrifice anything for Resolve as it's already gonna be their recommended attribute. Combine that with the fact that if you wanna stay pure spellcaster you don't need Strength as well, so you can spend more points on Constitution and make your average spellcaster an above average tank. Just below fighter in fact.

 

If there is something, though, that I can predict Josh will do in the near future, even in the upcoming patch, is his tweaking deflection class distribution, and also how it will work with Resolve or even other attributes. It's a really easy thing to adjust and then finely tune.

[morhilane]

 

 

 

A 3 points difference in deflection does not make you a  significantly better tank.

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be.

 

 

I'm confused. Spellcasters start with a penalty to their deflection, which isn't overcome even by maxing out Resolve. How will they be better tanks in the new system?

 

 

Only barbarians have lower base deflection, and only Fighters have higher. Everyone else starts with 20 so a Paladin = Wizard = Rogue

 

The Paladin base deflection doesn't include their "faith & conviction" bonus, they actually have the highest "base" deflection of all the classes.

 

And without the stats change, the Wizard were already the kings of deflection. Their instant cast defensive spells grants at least +40 deflection right now.

Edited November 29, 2017 by morhilane

[DigitalCrack]

For Cipher I think the best way to change the class would be making soulwhip have damage that scales with resolve spell damage. Instead of however it works now, you just have the extra damage it applies scale up with resolve. Strength becomes less needed as you gain more extra damage from soul whip when rolling high resolve. That way the damage needed from weapons to build focus takes less of a hit with the new stat setup.

[KDubya]

For Cipher I think the best way to change the class would be making soulwhip have damage that scales with resolve spell damage. Instead of however it works now, you just have the extra damage it applies scale up with resolve. Strength becomes less needed as you gain more extra damage from soul whip when rolling high resolve. That way the damage needed from weapons to build focus takes less of a hit with the new stat setup.

 

What then happens in the case of a multiclass Cipher or even a pure Cipher who pumps both Might and Resolve?

 

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

[theBalthazar]

resolved summon weapon create a another way to play.

 

I think it is a better option. A soul weapon controled by determination (resolve) = can work RP speakly.

 

 

What then happens in the case of a multiclass Cipher or even a pure Cipher who pumps both Might and Resolve?

 

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

 

 

Not false... Pure concept have an advantage. Mixed concept pay for their crime of diversification. while it's not even a multiclass for once.

 

If that problem concerned only multiclass, I could appreciate the idea of this change. But here, internal concept are not in equity. (Druid, Cipher, Paladin mainly).

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

For Cipher I think the best way to change the class would be making soulwhip have damage that scales with resolve spell damage. Instead of however it works now, you just have the extra damage it applies scale up with resolve. Strength becomes less needed as you gain more extra damage from soul whip when rolling high resolve. That way the damage needed from weapons to build focus takes less of a hit with the new stat setup.

 

 

THe problem with this idea is that the extra damage from soul whip is just a percentage, so you're talking a percentage of a percentage. You'd need a huge bonus to make a difference --

 

and then someone would multiclass cipher [resolve class] and suddenly cipher/priests are doing massive damage in melee AND with spells.

 

Like I said above, I don't see any way to fix this for single class ciphers that doesn't create huge balance problems with overpowered multiclass ciphers.

[DigitalCrack]

 

For Cipher I think the best way to change the class would be making soulwhip have damage that scales with resolve spell damage. Instead of however it works now, you just have the extra damage it applies scale up with resolve. Strength becomes less needed as you gain more extra damage from soul whip when rolling high resolve. That way the damage needed from weapons to build focus takes less of a hit with the new stat setup.

What then happens in the case of a multiclass Cipher or even a pure Cipher who pumps both Might and Resolve?

 

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

While I agree that this stat change creates more issues then it fixes, I think soulwhip scaling with resolve could work. The extra damage it provides would have to start lower than it currently does for it to balance out properly. Edited November 29, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

While I agree that this stat change creates more issues then it fixes, I think soulwhip scaling with resolve could work. The extra damage it provides would have to start lower than it currently does for it to balance out properly.

 

 

 

I don't really see where you're coming from on this -- do you have any numbers to back that up or is it just intuitive?

 

Because if it's just an intuitive argument I'd ask you to look at the numbers instead. Mathematically, 18 might would give a 24% damage bonus; that's higher than the base soul whip bonus of 20%. Now with this change, those points need to go somewhere else (if, say, you ever want to do damage with a power cast, etc.) 

 

Remember: Ciphers gain focus from weapon damage dealt. A 24% drop in their weapon damage dealt means a corresponding 24% drop in their focus gained. 

 

This change doesn't just shift some numbers around. Imagine if wizards lost a quarter of their spell list every fight. That's the equivalent of what this change does to ciphers. 

 

And there's no way to "balance this properly" because if you gave Ciphers enough of a damage bonus to even this out -- say, an additional 24% bonus to Soul Whip -- suddenly Soul Whip is doing +44% damage! (Base, not counting Biting Whip etc).  AT that point, multiclass cipher/melee classes become absurdly powerful just from the bonus damage, without ever bothering to actually cast cipher powers!

 

It's a @#$@$ mess.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[AndreaColombo]

If a change to one system forces you to enact several other changes to other systems that were already working fine, then it was probably not a good change.

 

I don’t think we should rebalance classes around the new attribute properties. We should change attributes in a way that makes sense in conjunction with the rest of the system that has already been designed.

[JerekKruger]

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

 

Agreed, and the solution isn't to put a plaster on each of the new problems as they raise their head, the solution is to keep Might as it is and find a different way of buffing Resolve.

[KDubya]

 

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

 

Agreed, and the solution isn't to put a plaster on each of the new problems as they raise their head, the solution is to keep Might as it is and find a different way of buffing Resolve.

 

 

Maybe Resolve could like decrease affliction durations per stat point above 10 and increase the duration below 10.

 

I think I saw that suggested somewhere and I don't recall any complaints.  

 

This would make Resolve useful but not required and painful to dump. All current classes and builds are just as viable as they are now. Then you can look at any specific shortcoming such as pure casters and address their specific issues.

[Sedrefilos]

 

This idiotic stat change is just going to make a whole series of cascading problems.

 

Agreed, and the solution isn't to put a plaster on each of the new problems as they raise their head, the solution is to keep Might as it is and find a different way of buffing Resolve.

 

Sawyer answered to me in twitter regarding this and he was adamant that there was no other way and, when I mentioned that there are several interesting proposals in these forums, he said he didn't see any that looked workable for him.

That's why I said that dump stats is a reality - it seems that this is the way the design team feels at the moment and it won't change before the next beta update, unfortunately.

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

While I agree that this stat change creates more issues then it fixes, I think soulwhip scaling with resolve could work. The extra damage it provides would have to start lower than it currently does for it to balance out properly.

 

 

I don't really see where you're coming from on this -- do you have any numbers to back that up or is it just intuitive?

 

Because if it's just an intuitive argument I'd ask you to look at the numbers instead. Mathematically, 18 might would give a 24% damage bonus; that's higher than the base soul whip bonus of 20%. Now with this change, those points need to go somewhere else (if, say, you ever want to do damage with a power cast, etc.)

 

Remember: Ciphers gain focus from weapon damage dealt. A 24% drop in their weapon damage dealt means a corresponding 24% drop in their focus gained.

 

This change doesn't just shift some numbers around. Imagine if wizards lost a quarter of their spell list every fight. That's the equivalent of what this change does to ciphers.

 

And there's no way to "balance this properly" because if you gave Ciphers enough of a damage bonus to even this out -- say, an additional 24% bonus to Soul Whip -- suddenly Soul Whip is doing +44% damage! (Base, not counting Biting Whip etc). AT that point, multiclass cipher/melee classes become absurdly powerful just from the bonus damage, without ever bothering to actually cast cipher powers!

 

It's a @#$@$ mess.

Nope, dont have any specific numbers to propose. Also Soulwhip is how they collect focus according to lore. Without it they gain nothing from hitting people with various implements.

 

"Soul Whip is the Cipher's passive ability that activates in combat as long as the Cipher's Focus level is below maximum. Causes the Cipher's weapon(s) to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher. It can be used with ranged weapons."

Edited November 29, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[JerekKruger]

Sawyer answered to me in twitter regarding this and he was adamant that there was no other way and, when I mentioned that there are several interesting proposals in these forums, he said he didn't see any that looked workable for him.

 

I don't buy his answer. I can't see how, for example, leaving Might as the sole +damage attribute but moving +healing to Resolve isn't workable. I think he just doesn't want to have the discussion right now: he wants to implement the change in the next beta patch and see how it goes. That's fine of course, but I don't actually believe his answer.

 

Having Resolve reduce the duration of Afflictions is another great suggestion (it even fits with the name of the attribute) but I'm willing to believe that might be harder to implement.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

Nope, dont have any specific numbers to propose. Also Soulwhip is how they collect focus according to lore. Without it they gain nothing from hitting people with various implements.

 

"Soul Whip is the Cipher's passive ability that activates in combat as long as the Cipher's Focus level is below maximum. Causes the Cipher's weapon(s) to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher. It can be used with ranged weapons."

 

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of how Soul Whip is defined in the lore. In practice, Soul Whip boosts all cipher physical damage, and physical damage in turn generates focus. 

 

 

Sawyer answered to me in twitter regarding this and he was adamant that there was no other way and, when I mentioned that there are several interesting proposals in these forums, he said he didn't see any that looked workable for him.

 

I don't buy his answer. I can't see how, for example, leaving Might as the sole +damage attribute but moving +healing to Resolve isn't workable. I think he just doesn't want to have the discussion right now: he wants to implement the change in the next beta patch and see how it goes. That's fine of course, but I don't actually believe his answer.

 

Having Resolve reduce the duration of Afflictions is another great suggestion (it even fits with the name of the attribute) but I'm willing to believe that might be harder to implement.

 

 

 

Leaving Resolve broken and useless would have been preferable to this change. He's fixing a dud-stat problem by creating the larger problem of making hybrid builds much less effective -- in a game where they're introducing multiclassing as a core selling point.

[Aramintai]

 

 

Leaving Resolve broken and useless would have been preferable to this change. He's fixing a dud-stat problem by creating the larger problem of making hybrid builds much less effective -- in a game where they're introducing multiclassing as a core selling point.

They may as well drop Resolve altogether. But I guess we'll have to test iterations of overcomplicated fumbling in the dark.

[Wormerine]

Leaving Resolve broken and useless would have been preferable to this change. He's fixing a dud-stat problem by creating the larger problem of making hybrid builds much less effective -- in a game where they're introducing multiclassing as a core selling point.

Would you mind elaborating a bit? I have never done much of multiclassing but from what I saw and tried it works the best if ones combines abilities of both classes to enhance each other, rather than doing everything at once.

 

Let’s take fighter/wizard. With new system it will be difficult to build a character who focuses on dealing damage with weapons and spells. But you wouldn’t do that right? Casting fireball from first raw of combat is risky as you can get interrupted. It is more likely you will buff yourself with magic to get better protection or better damage or debuf enemies. You won’t need resolve for that.

 

You can also create tanks damage dealer - you engage enemies and lock them with you, and use spells like fan of flames to damage enemies.

[DigitalCrack]

@Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

 

Not gonna debate it beyond this but according to its definition, Soul whip doesn't contribute to focus gain its the sole reason a cipher collects any focus at all from physical attacks. That is simply how it is, no other way of interpreting it. So Its not unreasonable to think that having soul whip damage scale instead of being a fixed percentage would directly help with focus gained on hit since its how a cipher is even able to obtain focus to begin with. So instead of making a cipher's melee damage dependant on the weapons damage via strength you could get the same affect by boosting resolve thus boosting overall weapon damage utilizing soulwhip instead of the weapon itself which woukd fix the cipher issue of having too many stats that need a decent point investment.

[theBalthazar]

Possible that Josh Sawyer want that we were testing, before that we should make a criticism.

 

The problem is : globally its work. In terms of pure concept. That or something else.

 

But there is comprehensible disfavor consequences for some classes.Where the principle of equity is not respected.

 

Perhaps it is intended. Perhaps not. But this, we can say it before we even play. Because these are "logical switches".

 

It's all the more unfortunate that the paladin was starting to become fun for me. Not god tiers, but very fun. Cipher wasn't need that. Druid was awsome in spirit**** but awful with spells.

 

So I resume with a physical class : the panel of your class is fully referrent to Strengh (Core+Active Abilities). Resolve dump.

 

With a druid : For the same value of attribute, spiritshifting is strength, spells is resolve. I can not use my entire panel at the same power, when other classes can. To equal attribute points.

 

Which leads to an ultimate question? Intended or not ? Compensation or not ?

 

I also think that it displeases people on paper because it can discourage them to multi-class in a way too crazy, mixing physical and magic for exemple. By optimizing, they will realize it, and some combos (Wizard + Barbarian) may not be used frequently. Or for buff aspect only (not the full potential...).

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Leaving Resolve broken and useless would have been preferable to this change. He's fixing a dud-stat problem by creating the larger problem of making hybrid builds much less effective -- in a game where they're introducing multiclassing as a core selling point.

Would you mind elaborating a bit? I have never done much of multiclassing but from what I saw and tried it works the best if ones combines abilities of both classes to enhance each other, rather than doing everything at once.

 

Let’s take fighter/wizard. With new system it will be difficult to build a character who focuses on dealing damage with weapons and spells. But you wouldn’t do that right? Casting fireball from first raw of combat is risky as you can get interrupted. It is more likely you will buff yourself with magic to get better protection or better damage or debuf enemies. You won’t need resolve for that.

 

You can also create tanks damage dealer - you engage enemies and lock them with you, and use spells like fan of flames to damage enemies.

 

 

 

I did earlier in the thread in more detail, but the way ciphers work, mechanically, it's a hose -- they deal physical damage on the front end, then spells come out the other end. But if you pinch off either end, nothing happens -- no spells come out.

 

This change basically means you have to pinch one end at least, because there aren't enough stat points to keep both ends of the hose open. Either you sacrifice weapon damage or you sacrifice spell damage. Either way, it's a dramatic nerf to damage dealt ,and ciphers are supposed to be a "striker" class for whom damage dealing is a core class element. 

 

The same general principle is true to a lesser extent for any other class that tries to do both weapon and spell damage, which is what I mean by hybrid. Before, you could easily build a damage-focused priest or druid or paladin or w/e because there wasn't a conflict between weapon damage and spell damage. Now there is, so you have to pick one, and if you're picking just one, you aren't a hybrid any more. 

 

That said you're correct that a lot of classes can just choose to specialize in one or the other now and it isn't as big a deal. But Ciphers can't make that choice.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

@Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

 

Not gonna debate it beyond this but according to its definition, Soul whip doesn't contribute to focus gain its the sole reason a cipher collects any focus at all from physical attacks. That is simply how it is, no other way of interpreting it. So Its not unreasonable to think that having soul whip damage scale instead of being a fixed percentage would directly help with focus gained on hit since its how a cipher is even able to obtain focus to begin with. So instead of making a cipher's melee damage dependant on the weapons damage via strength you could get the same affect by boosting resolve thus boosting overall weapon damage utilizing soulwhip instead of the weapon itself which woukd fix the cipher issue of having too many stats that need a decent point investment.

 

 

Right, ok, sure, but . . . 

 

Let's say you do that and you just give Soul Whip a huge resolve-based damage boost to even it out. Heck, make all Cipher weapon damage resolve-based instead of might-based.

 

What happens then?

 

What happens is you get crazily overpowered Paladin / Soul Blade builds that just stack resolve like crazy for megadamage from the Soul Whip bonus and use the focus just for bonus Soul Annihilation damage, and don't bother with powers.

 

 

That's the thing -- mechanically, any bonus you give ciphers to "balance" this, can effectively be reduced to "the equivalent of X number of free stat points," and then those bonuses -- whatever they are -- will in turn make multiclass ciphers overpowered. 

 

They're putting ciphers in a nerf box and I don't see a way out of it.