What is the problem with misses of the new system ?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 D&D encounter design is that enemies will be dead by the 5th weapon swing most of the time unless they are a "boss encounter".

 

That is clearly not the case of POE/POE2, everything is basically an HP sponge. It's probably balanced like that because health/endurance regen and weapons are on paper dealing a lots of damage (but with DR and now AR that isn't what is happening).

 

End result: people stack damage to reduce TTK and assure the party survivability, because the game mechanics are piss poor in term of defensive support too (and even more in Deadfire, the Priest was nerfed so much in regard to that)

 

I really like that D&D had the general ambition of resolving combat resaonably fast. Sure, in NWN1/NWN2 3.0/3.5, in high level extreme cases, a swing fest can ensue for minutes.

But, for the most part, any non-boss enemy will be dead after the 5th weapon swing.

In part, you had much longer fly-swatting sessions in PoE1, and here in Deadfire it can go on for ages (see another topic of mine, concerning combat).

My solution, which would be in keeping with injuries and other game design in PoE, is to increase damage for each successful hit - nothing crazy - but just to speed stuff up.

So, five hits on a single non-boss baddie should be enough for most melee and ranged attacks, including all weapons from stiletto to halberd.

Of course, you could sort weapons into different categories, if you want. I dunno. I mean, three hits with a two-handed sword could be the same as five dagger stabs (obviously not backstabs).

There is nothing tactics-enhancing about one-on-ones taking minutes with lots of mosquito-swatting. I really want to see one-on-one combat like that get resolved within seconds, say in the ballpark of 10-20 s.

Edited November 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Why's everyone complaining?

 

Back in BG and NWN for the first half of the game you missed nearly every attack. It's like the good old days!

 

 

Well, it's one thing to miss with a bow or a sword swing when you can just swing again.

 

It's another to whiff completely with a spell you only get one cast of. 

 

Then if you're a cipher all that missing compounds because all the misses mean you can't get the focus to cast anything and even when you do your casts miss too!

 

In the abstract more missing just means longer fights, ok, that's not necessarily a bad thing, it means more space for tactics and gameplay that has time for thinking  instead of just spamming clicks. Great, in theory. The problem is that the higher miss rate hurts casters a lot more than it hurts the weapon classes.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Gromnir]

Why don't you go to that hole in the ground instead of using the water closet?

...

 

is amusing to see boeroer (and others) dismissing a nostalgia argument.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[daven]

!

Edited November 27, 2017 by daven

[Wormerine]

That is true. From what I remember of BG, the difficulty of the battle was to figure out how to hit enemies. Once hits started to land, combat was over rather quickly.

As far as the complaign of Deadfire enemies being HP sponges. Not from my experience, especially on my second playthrough. On veretan difficulty once I figured ways around the AP enemies tend to die quickly. A lot of "one round" enemy deaths.

I personally wouldnt want Obsidian to "hack" the hit rolls, with tricks like "first hit always hit" or "everytime you miss your chances of hitting increases." 

[dunehunter]

Why's everyone complaining?

 

Back in BG and NWN for the first half of the game you missed nearly every attack. It's like the good old days!

 

But in late game of BG, AC become useless because u can always hit or being hit because BAB is so high when high level.

[theBalthazar]

you missed nearly every attack

 

 

 

Strength 20 at the begining + Few levels of warrior = problem solved : p NWN1 or NWN2.

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[takamorisan]

The current system feels like I'm poking the enemy and then out of nowhere my character decided to simply pick his greatsword and stab the enemy in the face, several attacks doing 1 and 2 damage, then some attack decide to actually connect and goes on his way to hit 59-64. With a heavy hitting build it goes 105 spike damage almost one shotting enemies.

PoE 1 combat was more interesting because the damage felt it was more distributed during combat.

[Boeroer]

 

Why don't you go to that hole in the ground instead of using the water closet?

...

 

is amusing to see boeroer (and others) dismissing a nostalgia argument.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, as if I am the advocat of nostalgia. I thought over the last years in this forums I painted a more differentiated picture of myself...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

 

 

Why don't you go to that hole in the ground instead of using the water closet?

...

 

is amusing to see boeroer (and others) dismissing a nostalgia argument.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, as if I am the advocat of nostalgia. I thought over the last years in this forums I painted a more differentiated picture of myself...

 

recent history notwithstanding?

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

If you want to focus on my well-founded feedback about the backer beta and call it nostalgia...

[Gromnir]

If you want to focus on my well-founded feedback about the backer beta and call it nostalgia...

your feedback founded 'pon nostalgia for poe?   okie dokie.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[takamorisan]

 

This fight is getting cringy

Edited November 27, 2017 by takamorisan

[Boeroer]

 

If you want to focus on my well-founded feedback about the backer beta and call it nostalgia...

your feedback founded 'pon nostalgia for poe? okie dokie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

If it makes you happy...

[vanyel54]

Talking about missing, someone actually used the weapon proficiency "Rapid shot".

With -20 accuracy, it's miss fest .

Obsidian should rename it "Blind shot"... The same for the pistol i think.

A penalty of -20 accuracy is huge. And we haven't any more grazes to justify an effect on hit. That doesn't make sens to me.

[Climhazzard]

Can't be much worse than plus 100% recovery....  if you were using a two hander and wearing perhaps medium armor you'd have a 10 second recovery.  It's like your dude has to stop after every swing to gasp for breath for 9 seconds.

[vanyel54]

Can't be much worse than plus 100% recovery....  if you were using a two hander and wearing perhaps medium armor you'd have a 10 second recovery.  It's like your dude has to stop after every swing to gasp for breath for 9 seconds.

Yeah some weapon proficiency are really bad. 

Really strange choice from Obsidian to force you to take something It's really not my definition of RPG where you must have choice above all. And not restricted choices.

[theBalthazar]

Modal seems to be very very equilibrate. too much.

 

They could be 75 % bonus / 25 % malus. But by far, this is not the case...

[daven]

 

you missed nearly every attack

 

 

 

Strength 20 at the begining + Few levels of warrior = problem solved : p NWN1 or NWN2.

 

I know I get it. I'm just saying for most people who played the game for the first time and didn't know what the hell they were doing.

 

Like this... everyone's only just started playing and doesn't know what the hell they are doing.

 

Do I really need to explain this?!!"£$?

[Boeroer]

No.

But I already know what I'm doing in Deadfire and it still sucks to miss all the time OR that I have to cast superlenghty buffs in order to not miss all the time OR have to multicalss with a fighter in order to get Disciplined Barrage aka grazing. It's annoying and frustrating. Nostalgia or not, I believe the old solution was better.

Also, the argument of "we took it out because it confused people" gets reduced to absurdity once the same mechanic gets reintroduced, but you have to cast a spell or pick an ability in order to get it back. Like if that's less confusing...  

Edited November 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[the_dog_days]

Talking about missing, someone actually used the weapon proficiency "Rapid shot".

With -20 accuracy, it's miss fest .

Obsidian should rename it "Blind shot"...

"Spray and Pray" maybe you miss, and maybe you're Rambo.

[SaruNi]

Fireball actually does have graze. Would be nice if that were included in the spell description.

 

Part of the balance issue could be resolved if some enemies have high Deflection but relatively low Reflex, Will, or Fortitude defenses (at least one of them being low enough to consistently at least graze). Fighters and Monks are limited to targeting deflection or fortitude, while Paladins and Barbarians are limited to deflection or will. Rogues can target deflection, fortitude, or reflex, and Tricksters can also target will. Most casters can target any of them.

 

Of course, one problem is that you don't get to immediately see what the enemies' defensive values are. It would be cool if the Conjuror's familiar had an ability that would instantly reveal (at least one of) them (per usage...).

Edited November 28, 2017 by SaruNi

[Climhazzard]

Fireball actually does have graze. Would be nice if that were included in the spell description.

 

Part of the balance issue could be resolved if some enemies have high Deflection but relatively low high Reflex, Will, or Fortitude defenses (at least one of them being low enough to consistently at least graze). Fighters and Monks are limited to targeting deflection or fortitude, while Paladins and Barbarians are limited to deflection or will. Rogues can target deflection, fortitude, or reflex, and Tricksters can also target will. Most casters can target any of them.

 

Of course, one problem is that you don't get to immediately see what the enemies' defensive values are. It would be cool if the Conjuror's familiar had an ability that would instantly reveal (at least one of) them (per usage...).

 

 

Some kind of enemy scouting skill is actually a really good idea.  The current system relies pretty heavily on exploiting enemy weaknesses, both defense and armor weaknesses, but you don't really know what they are until you've missed with and got "no pen" with half your skills.

[Insidous]

I don't miss the old system in martial fighting and I like the way you need to buff yourself to graze.. even if the balance currently is a little off.

 

That being said casters who do a 6+ second spell and miss feel terrible to play. I would really like to see grazes either as a feature of most long cast spells or even better: 

A modal you can activate: offensive spells can graze, +33% cast time for offensive spells or something alike

[SaruNi]

 

Fireball actually does have graze. Would be nice if that were included in the spell description.

 

Part of the balance issue could be resolved if some enemies have high Deflection but relatively low high Reflex, Will, or Fortitude defenses (at least one of them being low enough to consistently at least graze). Fighters and Monks are limited to targeting deflection or fortitude, while Paladins and Barbarians are limited to deflection or will. Rogues can target deflection, fortitude, or reflex, and Tricksters can also target will. Most casters can target any of them.

 

Of course, one problem is that you don't get to immediately see what the enemies' defensive values are. It would be cool if the Conjuror's familiar had an ability that would instantly reveal (at least one of) them (per usage...).

 

 

Some kind of enemy scouting skill is actually a really good idea.  The current system relies pretty heavily on exploiting enemy weaknesses, both defense and armor weaknesses, but you don't really know what they are until you've missed with and got "no pen" with half your skills.

 

 

Part of it can be built into the game's reading material or dialogues---that would be fun.

 

One could justify giving some sort of "knowledge of enemy" ability to Chanters (lore), Ciphers (scanning minds), Rangers (at least for some enemies)... any class would have special knowledge of at least some types of enemies. Since iirc there's no random enemy defense / resistance generation (unless you count summoned blights, but their resistances are obvious) it wouldn't really affect balance, but it would be a fun and ergonomical addition. Ideally maybe each class would get a once per encounter instant-cast, 0 recovery time enemy identifying ability, with chance of success tied to a non-combat skill, and applicable enemies limited by class---with Chanters (because of their knowledge of lore) being able to recognize any enemies and also bosses. And maybe Ciphers too, but with a roll of Accuracy vs Will. Or it could be limited to Chanters, Ciphers, (maybe Rangers,) and the Conjuror's Familiars (and Expose Vulnerabilities...).

 

Or it could be a part of existing debuffs (one of the Chanter invocations, one of the Cipher spells, Wizard's Expose Vulnerabilities...). Maybe Rangers could do it outside of combat (Ranger vs. reflex to reveal one or two defenses / armor ratings with a 4 m and a 15 second cool-down to make the positioning aspect interesting). 

Edited November 29, 2017 by SaruNi