COMPILATION THREAD - balance, classes, feedback, game mechanics

[IndiraLightfoot]

MaxQuest also found the action speed formula:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95847-attackaction-speed-thread/

 

Its the first post in this thread and its really complicated, so the link should be enough.

 

MaxQuest had also a table with all weapons (damage, penetration, speed, weapon specific bonus, what the profiency modal does, . . . ), similar to the stat effect table he posted above.

I would like to post it as well, but I cannot find it at the moment.

MaxQuest, oh grand master of game mechanics , would you please grant your infinite knowledge to the dump masses and post the table here too.

It's actually in that thread, marked as "link". His third post, mebbe?

[Madscientist]

^That's what I like about the blights right now. I can DW them with a melee weapon and fire at speed. Let's not advertise it too much or they'll take that away from us

Can you dual wield them together with a 1h ranged weapon too?

It feels strange when you fight with ranged+melee weapon in close combat.

 

@IndiraLightFoot: MaxQuest posted a link to his table here.

 

I think some ranged weapons give a penalty in close combat and some do not.

I am not sure which ones and what the penalty is exactly. ( I think it was a defense malus when being attacked in melee.)

[Boeroer]

Yes you can, but that would severely gimp your dps. The fun thing about wand + melee weapon is that you get the speed bonus of dual wielding while only attacking with the wand (when not in melee range).

[Madscientist]

Yes you can, but that would severely gimp your dps. The fun thing about wand + melee weapon is that you get the speed bonus of dual wielding while only attacking with the wand (when not in melee range).

 

- I guess you mean the summoned blights.

I see no reason why dual wands should be worse than wand+melee and you attack only with the wand.

 

- I think this might be a bug.

Lets say a wand is like an automatic gun. With a gun in both hands you can shoot more bullits in the same time compared to using only one gun. But having a gun in one hand and a sword in the other does not let you shoot faster.

Dual wielding reload weapons means only that you can shoot twice before reloading. You need both hands for reloading, so having a weapon in the other hand does not make reloading easier. ( . . Aaaand another BIG minus point for me for referring to realism . I should collect them in a box.))

[Boeroer]

I see no reason why dual wands should be worse than wand+melee and you attack only with the wand.

Yes, I meant the Blights. But even if you use non-summoned weapons:

 

Usually you have one (unique) wand/scepter that is superior to the others you own. If you can only attack with this one wand/scepter but retain the speed of dual wielding you will have a better result than alternating between superior and inferior wand/scepter.

 

If both wands/scepters are the same or complement each other very well (like for example one causes affliction on hit and the other does Sneak Attack) then you are correct.

 

At the same time you might profit from the melee weapon's modal without having to deal with the backdraws: a dagger + modal will give you +10 deflection. But since you don't attack with it the reduced damage doesn't matter at all.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Boeroer

[InsaneCommander]

How many skill points do you get when leveling up? Is there a distinction between passive and active skills points? I'm already planning my character skills and it would be good to know that.

[Boeroer]

1 for active skills (contains Athletics/Stealth/Arcane/Alchemy and so on)

 

and 1 for the passive skills. There is no cost progression like in PoE. So, getting from 0 to 1 costs 1 point and getting from 9 to 10 also only costs 1 point.

[JerekKruger]

Personally I think you should be able to cast Minor Blights a second time and dual wield those

 

More seriously I also like the fact that even if you don't equip a melee weapon in your offhand you get the +12 accuracy for using a single weapon. Makes the Blights, which already have a big accuracy buff, very accurate.

[Madscientist]

Here is the correct damage formula for beta version 4:

I do not know if the formula from MaxQuest I have posted earlier was correct during beta version 2 or if he made a mistake.

Many thanks to kmbogd for finding it out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every dmg bonus/malus has an actual "step" associated to it.

 

 

Since damage bonuses are positive in nature their step is positive and equal to the percentage damage increase. Some examples of steps of dmg bonuses:

• Weapon specialization bonus(+10% dmg) => step=0.1
• Crit damage bonus (+25% dmg) => step=0.25
• Sneak attack bonus (+50% dmg) => step=0.5

 

In the case of maluses the formula for the step is a bit different: 1-1/(1-malus). Here are some examples of steps of dmg maluses:

• Graze malus (-50%) => step=1-1/(1-0.5)=1-1/0.5=1-2=-1
• Light under-penetration (-25%) => step=1-1/(1-0.25)=1-1/0.75=1-4/3=-0.333
• Severe under-penetration (-75%) => step=1-1/(1-0.75)=1-1/0.25=1-4=-3

 

Now, all the steps of the dmg bonus and maluses (except might) are summed up together.

 

If the sum is >=0 you have the formula that you mentioned: rolled_dmg * (Step_SUM + 1) * MightModifier. For example if the sum steps turns out to be 0.75 then your damage would be rolled_dmg (0.75+1) * MightModifier.

 

If the sum is <0 you have the following formula: rolled_dmg/(1-Step_SuM) * MightModifier. For example if the sum of the steps turns out to be -0.75 then yout damage would be rolled_dmg/(1-(-0.75)) * MightModifier = rolled_dmg/1.75 * MightModifier

 

 

 

Might has a step of it's own computed in the same way as for the other bonuses/maluses. If the the step is positive (at least 10 might): MightModifier=1+MightStep. If the step is negative (below 10 Might): MightModifier=1/(1-MightStep).

Edited May 4, 2018 by Madscientist

[Madscientist]

This was my comment to the damage formula from the other thread:

 

So this means:

- If there is only a single modifier the effect is exactly what it says: sneak attack = +50% damage, graze = -50% damage

- If there are several bonusses and no penalties the bonusses are added: 50% sneak attack + 40% biting whip = +90% damage

- If there are several penalties and no bonusses the penalties have diminishing returns, which means that several penalties result in a bigger penalty than every single one of them but the total penalty is smaller than the sum of all penalties ( because otherwise you could have negative damage )

- If you have both bonusses and penalties, the penalties have a bigger wight than the bonusses

 

result:

If you have several bonusses and penalties it is impossible to determine the effect of each modifier unless you are a math expert or you use a calculator. It is hard to tell if a specific combination of modifiers result in more or less damage than normal. The combat log will be confusing for many players because the can see +X% damage from something and -Y%damage from something else but the numbers do not add up.

[MaxQuest]

Here is the correct damage formula for beta version 4:

 

I do not know if the formula from MaxQuest I have posted earlier was correct during beta version 2 or if he made a mistake.

For beta2, this was pretty accurate   

As I have checked the source code, tried to interpret it, and after that checked how (additively or multiplicatively) Might is stacking with crit/graze/overpenetration/underpenetration/sneak-attack/soul-whip/weapon-type damage bonuses in-game.

 

I haven't retested this in beta3 or beta4 through. Waiting for the release.

 

Now, all the steps of the dmg bonus and maluses (except might) are summed up together.

That's interesting.

Do I read it right that Might is now completely in a group of it's own?

 

In beta2 the formula was the same as you described above, but damage malus of [graze] and [under-penetration] were belonging to the same group as Might, and it was very strange.

[kmbogd]

I think that in beta 2 there were some bugs and that's why graze and under-penetration appeared in the same group as might. Probably they fixed this in Beta4. Now it seems that only might has a group of its own, everything else  is added in the other group.

Edited May 4, 2018 by kmbogd

[MaxQuest]

Now it seems that only might has a group of its own, everything else  is added in the other group.

Good. Am glad that graze is in the same group as crit then; and underpen malus in the same group as overpen bonus.

 

And would be even more glad if [underpen + overpen] were moved in a separate group of their own. As this would also help remedy such tooltip errors like: 45.7 x 1.3 = 51.3 (image)

Edited May 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

So regarding damage and speed we can give the following rule of thumb:

 

Stack as many bonusses as possible and avoid penalties like hell.

If you cannot avoid a penalty ( like you wish to fight in heavy armor regarding speed or you wish to activate a modal that lowers damage ) you might as well add some more penalties if you think they give a useful advantage in return.

 

Regarding stacking: all passive stuff stacks but active stuff does not.

passive = talents that give a bonus but you cannot use this talent as active ability, all equipment

active = abilities you have to activate ( like frenzy ), potions, auras, weapon modals

 

Is that correct?

The list of active and passive stuff is definitely not complete, but I think Boeroer confirmed the general rule that passives stack and actives do not.

[MaxQuest]

Stack as many bonusses as possible and avoid penalties like hell.

If you cannot avoid a penalty ( like you wish to fight in heavy armor regarding speed or you wish to activate a modal that lowers damage ) you might as well add some more penalties if you think they give a useful advantage in return.

Generally yes. When you have bonuses AND maluses, because of double inversion, maluses do have a higher impact than a bonus of the same amplitude.

 

At the same time, if I can secure under-penetration on most incoming damage, I'll take the heaviest armor even on the damage dealers. Think of: equiping plate/brigandine can make you take up to x4 less damage; but will unequiping it make you deal up to x4 more damage?

 

Regarding stacking: all passive stuff stacks but active stuff does not.

passive = talents that give a bonus but you cannot use this talent as active ability, all equipment

active = abilities you have to activate ( like frenzy ), potions, auras, weapon modals

 

Is that correct?

The list of active and passive stuff is definitely not complete, but I think Boeroer confirmed the general rule that passives stack and actives do not.

That is corrent. And I've seen even a tooltip ingame that reads exactly this. Passive stuff stacks, active doesn't.

 

The problem is that it's not always intuitive what is passive and what is not.

- for instance the game treats auras as actives because they come from modals which the player has to toggle. But I still view auras as passives, since they have indefinite duration.

- another case is: Smart from Clarity of Mind with Intellect bonus from Duality of Mortal Presence. They stack (at least in beta3 they did for sure) and honestly I like that... but, they both qualify as active (per game's description), don't they?

Edited May 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[kmbogd]

And would be even more glad if [underpen + overpen] were moved in a separate group of their own. As this would also help remedy such tooltip errors like: 45.7 x 1.3 = 51.3 (image)

 

No need as the UI has been also fixed in Beta 4 (see picture attached). The combat log shows only the outcome: "no penetration", "penetration", "over-penetration". If you press shift to get more info, you get the detailed list of bonuses/maluses including the one from penetrating or not.

Edited May 4, 2018 by kmbogd