Masculinity; What is it? Is it bad?

[Guard Dog]

I'm reading a book about John Wayne and John Ford:

 

 

It's not really what I was expecting when I bought it. It does recount how their friendship began and what came of it. Much of it I already knew. John Ford was a real a-----e to everyone, especially Wayne despite the latter's career long admiration of him. And it was pretty much commonly known the real John Wayne was nothing like any of his movie roles. Rumors have persisted he was secretly homosexual. Now? No one cares. Back then it was a big deal. I seriously doubt it was true but it would not change anything about him or his legacy if it were.

 

Anyway, I'm getting off track here. The gist of the book is actually a criticism of what their relationship created. John Ford wanted to create an icon. An enduring example of American machismo for men to aspire to and of course pay money to watch their movies. He was creating the ideal American male. And he used Wayne to do it. Based on my father's attitude towards Wayne I'd say for that generation they were successful.

 

Now of course we are told masculinity it toxic. It's hurting us. Stuff like that. The Atlantic Magazine wrote a review of this book that was particularly spiteful (well it is the Atlantic after all) saying: "From the bulk of the evidence here, masculinity (like the Western) is a by-product of nostalgia, a maudlin elegy for something that never existed—or worse, a masquerade that allows no man, not even John Wayne, to be comfortable in his own skin."

 

I'm curious. What do you folks think is the "ideal" male. What should a man aspire to be? What traits should a man have? And is masculinity really toxic?

 

 

 

[Guard Dog]

For my part the key words for what a man should be is self sufficient. I don't mean in the frontier kind of way. A man should earn his own living, care for and provide for his family, and keep his commitments. If I look you in the eye and tell you I'll do something it's very important to me that I follow through on that. To me that is not to say those are not admirable traits in women as well. Certainly they are. But in my own opinion for a male, that is the price of admission That is the minimum bar you have to meet. You don't need to be the strongest, best fighter, best shot, run faster, farther, longer etc. Just pull your weight and take care of your own.

[213374U]

To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women.

[Gizmo]

Now of course we are told masculinity it toxic. It's hurting us. Stuff like that.

Who is espousing that its toxic? Is this some sort of indoctrination in the (everybody wins for showing up) school system?

 

For my part the key words for what a man should be is self sufficient. I don't mean in the frontier kind of way. A man should earn his own living, care for and provide for his family, and keep his commitments. If I look you in the eye and tell you I'll do something it's very important to me that I follow through on that. To me that is not to say those are not admirable traits in women as well. Certainly they are. But in my own opinion for a male, that is the price of admission That is the minimum bar you have to meet. You don't need to be the strongest, best fighter, best shot, run faster, farther, longer etc. Just pull your weight and take care of your own.

 

I fully agree; though I don't see much of it very often where I live. [uS]

 

Things have gone wrong (as they always do), out with the old, and in with the —eew. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women.

At this point, it's become the other answer; the one before that one. Edited November 16, 2017 by Gizmo

[Heijoushin]

Yeah, society (or at least social media) spends a lot of its energy these days validating women. Not to be bitter, but it does make one wonder if men have any value anymore.

 

I basically agree with the traits you mentioned in your 2nd post Guard Dog. Not every man can be an action hero, but we can: 1) stand on our own two feet, 2) be a pillar of stability for our family, and 3) honor our word. I guess the beauty of masculinity is a sort of "stoicism"; taking what life dishes you without getting too worked up or emotional.

 

As for the Japan pic (and I know you're joking), their actors and idols may be pretty boys, but the backbone of Japanese society is still the underappreciated, relatively unattractive salaryman, who trudges to work everyday to bring home the bacon. 

[Guard Dog]

Gizmo a five minute search on google will turn up more articles on how masculinity is bad, a negative influence on boys, men, society, etc than you can read in a day.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Gizmo]

Gizmo a five minute search on google will turn up more articles on how masculinity is bad, a negative influence on boys, men, society, etc.

No doubt...

 

(But do you believe them?)

 

___________

 

John Wayne (Marion Morrison) was given the script for Blazing Saddles; and loved it, but declined to accept the offered part because of his public image...

his opinion, it was just too dirty a script for —John Wayne.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Gizmo

[Malcador]

Wayne thought The Green Berets was a good idea, his opinion counts for little

[Gfted1]

Hmm, I wonder what this red button does...*pushes button*

 

Imo, societal masculinity has an inverse relationship with technology.

[redneckdevil]

It's not bad and it is needed BUT not from everyone, just like femininity.

 

It all boils down to everything else, be what you want but respect those around you.

[213374U]

I have to wonder why you're even wasting your time pondering this question. Just do your thing. Is it manly? Is it womanly? Who cares. From what little I know about you, you're -wisely- well past the point where you give two ****s about attracting women in this fashion, so it's a completely useless spook from which you should free yourself. You hit the nail on the head: it's about conforming to an ideal, in this case, exploited to sell you on John Wayne's (& co.) stuff.

 

Traditionally, masculinity has been strongly associated with aggression, physical or otherwise. It is what it is. In this day and age, anything even remotely referencing aggression is deemed "toxic", and by association, so is old skool masculinity. No doubt masculinity will be soon redefined, into something every man who prizes himself must learn to conform to.

[Malcador]

Masculinity is gaming on a PC.

[213374U]

Nah. At GD. I just ramble a lot, so your confusion is understandable.

[ShadySands]

Real men take bubble baths

[Guard Dog]

I have to wonder why you're even wasting your time pondering this question. Just do your thing. Is it manly? Is it womanly? Who cares. From what little I know about you, you're -wisely- well past the point where you give two ****s about attracting women in this fashion, so it's a completely useless spook from which you should free yourself. You hit the nail on the head: it's about conforming to an ideal, in this case, exploited to sell you on John Wayne's (& co.) stuff.

 

Traditionally, masculinity has been strongly associated with aggression, physical or otherwise. It is what it is. In this day and age, anything even remotely referencing aggression is deemed "toxic", and by association, so is old skool masculinity. No doubt masculinity will be soon redefined, into something every man who prizes himself must learn to conform to.

Trust me, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. Let me put it this way. When I want steak for dinner I go the the grocery store. When i want to fix my fence I go the hardware store. When I want a sip of Kentucky's finest I go the liquor store. When I want and entertaining conversation and a little debate with a wide range of different opinions i come here. But you have to bring something to the table. Today I brought a take on a book I'm reading.

[Guard Dog]

Hmm, I wonder what this red button does...*pushes button*

 

Imo, societal masculinity has an inverse relationship with technology.

You know I think you're wrong here. I hear a lot of men discussing their computers, smart phones, tablets, apps, etc in much the same tones you or I might have discussed our cars in back in the '80s!

[213374U]

Right. Sorry if that came across as patronizing. It's just that I can't help but smirk when this topic is discussed. I honestly cannot ascribe any values to men that should be regarded as more valuable than they would be for women, in a context where women are fully capable of earning their own keep... or at least as capable as men.

[pmp10]

What is the idea of masculinity?

I'd say a attempt to steer male risk-taking behavior onto something socially beneficial.

 

Is is toxic?

If society has no use for any such behavior then I suppose it is.

Today in developed world may very well qualify.

[Hurlshort]

In a kind of similar vein, I always find it odd when I'm at the store with my kids, old people will come up to us and be like "Dad's in charge today!" They say it like it is some sort of rare occurrence, like I am filling in for my wife for a day. It's so bizarre. The reality is the opposite, I probably have them on my own more often due to my wife's schedule, and I'm damn good at it. 

[HoonDing]

"To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women."

 

came here to post this

[Gfted1]

In a kind of similar vein, I always find it odd when I'm at the store with my kids, old people will come up to us and be like "Dad's in charge today!" They say it like it is some sort of rare occurrence, like I am filling in for my wife for a day. It's so bizarre. The reality is the opposite, I probably have them on my own more often due to my wife's schedule, and I'm damn good at it. 

 

That exactly illustrates the societal changes from yesteryear. In their day, dads worked and moms raised children. Now the norm is two working parents. Times and technology will further change that when "mens jobs" (typically labor) are replaced by automation.  

[Fiach]

I love John Wayne movies, Maureen O'Hara paid a beautiful tribute to him on the occasion of wanting a medal struck in his honour

 

http://alamosports.proboards.com/thread/570/john-waynes-commemorative-gold-medal

Edited November 16, 2017 by Fiach

[HoonDing]

True men go down like in the Alamo

 

[Blarghagh]

I didn't read all the responses so maybe I'm treading old ground, but can I just say something?

 

I think the term "toxic masculinity" is misused constantly by almost everyone who uses it. Somehow it has morphed into a single term when it is and has always been meant to be taken the way it is written; an adjective and a noun. Toxic masculinity shouldn't mean that all masculinity is toxic just as "broken machinery" doesn't mean all machinery is broken.

 

I know this definition as a single term came from crazy tumblr feminists originally misusing the term and the subsequent pushback, but it irritates me to no end when someone says "now we're told masculinity is toxic" and defends the concept of masculinity from something that was never meant to be an attack on the entire thing. This isn't entirely sparked by this thread, just if I see one more response to a mention of toxic masculinity that proceeds to bitch that men have it much worse because look at the young male suicide rate, I might freak.

 

There are many positive traits that are traditionally seen as masculine. Courage, strength, ambition, competition, rationality, assertiveness and protectiveness are fantastic masculine ideals men are expect to aspire to. But in some ways they are also mandatory. You can't lose so you must win, you must not avoid risks whether they're dumb or not, you must ignore emotions in favour of indifferent rational thought, protectiveness becomes obsessiveness, assertiveness become domineering and you must not show weakness. These traits are not inherently toxic but societal pressures and expectations can warp them and when this happens they become toxic masculinity. This can lead to men viewing these traits as having more rights than others, ignoring mental and physical health problems and not accept it when their ambition and competition for social status isn't rewarded to their expectation.

 

It's easy to forget in the world of 4chan, reddit and tumblr that these buzzwords like "toxic masculinity" or "patriarchy" exist for a reason and merit consideration despite their dogmatic followers. Patriarchy exists and it hurts men too. That rise in young male suicide rates? That's the work of toxic masculinity right there.

Edited November 16, 2017 by TrueNeutral

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Masculinity depends on the context of culture and time, if John Wayne were to imported from his prime he'd be called a skinnyfat and told to do starting strength. It could absolutely be toxic, just consoder the example of Wayne being a possible homosexual, such a thing is today considered feminine and would have been even worse back then. If this was the case, it would have caused Wayne a lot of grief. For a more modern example consider the toxic effect virginity has on men over 16, I challenge you to look at various incel forums or /r9k/ and then make an argument that failing to meet percieved standards of masculinity is not harmful.