how does the penetration mechanic feels like?

[Ancelor]

From Josh' description it sounded like a bit of an overkill for me.

Does it work fine for you who played the beta?

[Novem]

I think that I have a much easier time telling if my attacks are going to deal damage to the target or not than I did in Pillars of Eternity 1.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Novem

[LampStaple]

From my experience so far, it means that you can't multiclass as a caster if you want to do any damage with your spells because your spells being cast at a lower power level means your spell penetration will always be significantly lower than your enemy's armor class. Shame, I wanted to mc a paladin with an offensive caster, "templar" and "arcane knight" and "liberator" all sound like offensive classes but you literally do a third of the damage a pure caster does.

[morhilane]

From my experience so far, it means that you can't multiclass as a caster if you want to do any damage with your spells because your spells being cast at a lower power level means your spell penetration will always be significantly lower than your enemy's armor class. Shame, I wanted to mc a paladin with an offensive caster, "templar" and "arcane knight" and "liberator" all sound like offensive classes but you literally do a third of the damage a pure caster does.

Penetration gained seems to be .5 per power level (going by what I saw on the Wizard last night). At max level, the difference is going to be a whooping 1 between multiclassed and not-multiclassed character.

 

Also, the power level improving abilities seems to be a Wizard only thing in the beta...

[Climhazzard]

I honestly think it's pretty bad.  There's such an incredible fall off in damage if you're lacking Pen that I think multi class devoted is going to be almost a requirement for any melee hoping to do damage.  I messed around quite a bit with the first few fights and multi class devoted using blunt weapons (higher pen) or dual damage type weapons (swords for example) was the only way to do consistent damage.  Right now I'm feeling a multi class devoted dual wielding mace user is going to be one of the only ways to do consistent damage. (hint: try devoted/cipher). 

 

Right now I feel like the system is a lot less intuitive and is more punishing than the system PoE used.  If I were going to suggest a change that would make the system better without completely overhauling and rebalancing it then it would be to make the falloffs and gains for Pen/armor more gradual.  

 

For example...

 

For each point of Pen over enemy armor rating gain 5% damage.

 

For each point of Pen under enemy armor rating lose 10% damage.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Climhazzard

[morhilane]

I personally had more issues with missing half the time than dealing low damage because of low penetration on weapons.

 

I feels like the dev removed grazing (by default), but didn't change the deflection/accuracy window to compensate for 35% more misses.

[Boeroer]

Yes. Grazing is part of abilites now (like Disciplined Barrage). I miss all the time - it's really frustrating. I don't get why they changed SO MUCH of the original mechanics. I liked most of PoE's mechanics - they were just not made clear enough. Now it feels like a different game. 

 

I have to say the more I play the more I dislike the new penetration mechanic.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm finding out right now that it dictates combat too much. It's like the factor for the most part. I'd like to see it taper off fast, and also I'd like it to be a bit more forgiving.

[Katarack21]

The combination of penetration *and* removing grazing *and* the injury system combines to make combat combat feel much more difficult. I'm missing all the time, it's much easier to not do any damage, and you can be knocked out much less often before needing to rest. It feels way more brutal.

[theBalthazar]

. I miss all the time - it's really frustrating.

 

 

 

 

I'm missing all the time, it's much easier to not do any damage, and you can be knocked out much less often before needing to rest.

 

 

 

I am at ease, I thought I was playing poorly : p

 

So, there is a bigger tendency to miss, that's what I thought ...

 

Actually it makes the fight more ... random from a certain point of view. (I would say like you that it's worse than POE1 on this one)

Edited November 16, 2017 by theBalthazar

[IndiraLightfoot]

My first build, a very tanky, but bad-hitting Herald had a stand off versus a Xaurip, where both of us had 15 health max, and we swung and swung and swung...

 

I got down to 7, and then 3. He had 2, and without a Xaurip priest to heal him, and my second wind already used up, it was like a cruel RNG lottery who would win the duel. 

It was me. I think our one-on-one fight took about 4 minutes!

Edited November 16, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[dam]

I honestly think it's pretty bad.  There's such an incredible fall off in damage if you're lacking Pen that I think multi class devoted is going to be almost a requirement for any melee hoping to do damage.  I messed around quite a bit with the first few fights and multi class devoted using blunt weapons (higher pen) or dual damage type weapons (swords for example) was the only way to do consistent damage.  Right now I'm feeling a multi class devoted dual wielding mace user is going to be one of the only ways to do consistent damage. (hint: try devoted/cipher). 

 

Right now I feel like the system is a lot less intuitive and is more punishing than the system PoE used.  If I were going to suggest a change that would make the system better without completely overhauling and rebalancing it then it would be to make the falloffs and gains for Pen/armor more gradual.  

 

For example...

 

For each point of Pen over enemy armor rating gain 5% damage.

 

For each point of Pen under enemy armor rating lose 10% damage.

 

Guys guys, please.

Let us not be hasty here.

 

A (closed) beta's never been about balance in the first place, to be honest.

 

It's about finding out how playable the game is (regardless of balance, indeed) and find the most severe and/or gamebreaking bugs.

An open beta widens the player base and thus, allows the finding of more difficult/discrete bugs, which require specific conditions or are simply very rare.

 

Then, you get to balancing your game

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me that obsidian waits to have a bigger player base to start tweaking around with the numbers.

[Boeroer]

This is exactly what the beta is for: to find out if the new mechanics work/get accepted or not.

 

Currently I also think that penetration dictates combat. It's a lot easier if you have means to lower DR or to raise penetration.

 

For example I did an Ogre Corpse Eater (Transmuter/Corpse Eater) and despite his absurdly high MIG when frenzied and his huge dmg per hit he couldn't kill stuff because his penetration was too low and he can't switch weapons (fixed Ogre clubs) and also clubs' proficiency don't grant extra penetration.

 

Then I did a Skald/Berserker with dual maces (lowers DR) and Hel Hyraf-inviocation (also lowers DR) and suddenly it all was a breeze. All my party members could wipe the floor with the enemies all of a sudden because they all had enough penetration.

 

This is too strong. As others have said: this needs tweaking.

[demeisen]

I don't get why they changed SO MUCH of the original mechanics. I liked most of PoE's mechanics - they were just not made clear enough. Now it feels like a different game.

 

I generally hold with that sentiment as well.  PoE1 was a fundamentally good, if slightly flawed system.  It's not radically broken, so doesn't need to be radically fixed.  IMHO it would be better served with more minor alterations to its core.

[Skaddix]

So Penetration is king which means the Devoted Fighter/Conjurer Wizard looks pretty promising. 

[Cynrical]

I basically just recreated my Cipher from PoE 1, focusing on ranged damage via pistol and spells, with a side of charm/dominate CC. I miss around half my attacks, and when I'm able to I do ~7-10 damage, with a pistol. Not to mention I went Ascended for my subclass for that sweet, sweet extra damage. Turns out that Ascended can't compete at all, with the incredibly reduced damage due to Penetration, and the low damage when I do hit doesn't fill my focus enough for my Cipher to be at his full potential. To play devil's advocate to myself, I didn't take the Pen talents in the cipher tree, but I don't feel as though I should be required to take certain talents just to be useful. It defeats the "no bad builds" motto of the first game.

 

Either I'm terrible with the new mechanics and I completely missed something, or Penetration needs some adjustments. I'm not entirely convinced 30% of damage will work for failing to meet the Pen cap. Maybe 50%, like how graze worked in the first game.

[cheesevillain]

It felt awful in the original game with the DR system when your weapons could penetrate the opponent's amor at all. I like that the new penetration system does away with that.

[Climhazzard]

It felt awful in the original game with the DR system when your weapons could penetrate the opponent's amor at all. I like that the new penetration system does away with that.

 

 

Honestly I think that problem is significantly more common in the new system than it was in PoE.  

 

Set the game to pause when weapons are ineffective and you'll realize just how bad it is.  Literally the game is always paused and you're constantly digging through the combat log to see who's attacking something they shouldn't be.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Climhazzard

[cheesevillain]

 

It felt awful in the original game with the DR system when your weapons could penetrate the opponent's amor at all. I like that the new penetration system does away with that.

 

 

Honestly I think that problem is significantly more common in the new system than it was in PoE.  

 

Set the game to pause when weapons are ineffective and you'll realize just how bad it is.  Literally the game is always paused and you're constantly digging through the combat log to see who's attacking something they shouldn't be.

 

 

 

But the weapons still do some damage when ineffective, unless the critter has a complete immunity, right?

[OrangePulp]

I don't get why they changed SO MUCH of the original mechanics. I liked most of PoE's mechanics - they were just not made clear enough. Now it feels like a different game. 

 

A common sentiment I've seen regarding this game (and one I share) is hoping that it would be Obsidian's BG2 to their PoE1 (as BG1). I personally felt like a big part of that was taking mechanics that they already refined over the years with PoE1, using them as a baseline, saving them from having to go back and tweak things retroactively like they did with the last game. And by changing up systems, it kinda feels like tossing all that out the window.

 

I can understand the desire for more simplicity with something like this; can be easier to balance and design around, etc, when you only have two possible outcomes (I suppose three with the overpenetration 30% damage buff, but that doesn't seem too significant to me). But personally I see that sort of binary reduction as a big step backwards. You lose the fast-versus-slow weapons choice, where one is more susceptible to armor than the other, but also benefits more from penetration. I also think it feels really bad to just be one point shy of penetrating, only to have to use some other weapon option; especially as something like an unarmed focused monk, or maybe a shifted druid. Obviously cases like this existed before, but felt much more infrequent. The lack of generic talents also definitely plays into it; you can't just go grab vulnerable attack to deal with higher armored targets.

 

Another side effect to this system is that it can make higher level enemies much tougher. I found myself doing the lagufaeth stuff right at the start, not realizing that it is (or seems to be, at least) a slightly higher level area, and had a really hard time with some of the enemies, because I just didn't have weapon types that penetrated, and the overall armor values were much higher than the main quest dungeon.

[OrangePulp]

 

 

It felt awful in the original game with the DR system when your weapons could penetrate the opponent's amor at all. I like that the new penetration system does away with that.

 

 

Honestly I think that problem is significantly more common in the new system than it was in PoE.  

 

Set the game to pause when weapons are ineffective and you'll realize just how bad it is.  Literally the game is always paused and you're constantly digging through the combat log to see who's attacking something they shouldn't be.

 

 

 

But the weapons still do some damage when ineffective, unless the critter has a complete immunity, right?

 

Not to double-post, but pillars 1 still had minimum damage at 20%. 2's minimum is 50% higher at 30%, but I'd hazard a guess that you're hitting that minimum way more often than with 1.

[Climhazzard]

 

 

It felt awful in the original game with the DR system when your weapons could penetrate the opponent's amor at all. I like that the new penetration system does away with that.

 

 

Honestly I think that problem is significantly more common in the new system than it was in PoE.  

 

Set the game to pause when weapons are ineffective and you'll realize just how bad it is.  Literally the game is always paused and you're constantly digging through the combat log to see who's attacking something they shouldn't be.

 

 

 

But the weapons still do some damage when ineffective, unless the critter has a complete immunity, right?

 

  

Complete immunties are in the game as well.  And yes they will always do a minimum amount of damage, but if you look at the numbers it's literally no different than the minimum amount of damage you'd do against a highly armored opponent in PoE and much more common of a problem in the new system.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Katarack21]

In PoE 1, you also had the option of switching out weapon types at will as needed to deal with DR or immunity problems, and *EVERY* character could select weapon proficiencies at level up whenever they wanted to help offset accuracy problems, so it was very easy and very fluid to adjust on the fly to DR resistance. You hovered over the enemy, saw what their DR was, and just switched to the weapon set that they weren't resistant to. I literally never had any problems.

The penetration system, not so much. The weapon proficiencies are gated behind certain levels or classes, so you can't adjust your accuracy with weapons as easily, which means you get locked into weapons more solidly. The penetration system also has much harder penelties for not beating the numbers. The talents to increase penetration compound this problem by becoming must-have talents, defeating the whole purpose of "make any build you want". It's just generally a harsher system.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Katarack21

[Lamppost in Winter]

I like the idea of the Penetration system, but to spitball some alternative scaling for Pen vs. AR difference:

-1-2 Pen vs. AR: -20% damage
-3-4 Pen vs. AR: -50% damage 
-5 or more Pen vs. AR: -70% damage

I'd probably keep damage bonus from excess Penetration capped at +30% or have it scale much more gently.
 

[morhilane]

Looked at math tonight and discovered why my wounding shot was so good.

 

The penetration I get is 7 + 1 + 50% for a total of 12. The 7 is the base for wounding shot. The + 1 is from using a War Bow. The 50% is from critting (accurate wounding shot accuracy is 70). Critting increase penetration of normal weapons too, I saw it on rogue weapon attack.

 

In other word, you'll have better penetration with one-handed weapons, because of the accuracy bonus.

 

Also, looks like Josh lied again. Class do not have all the same base accuracy. Rogue/Fighter have 25, Ranger/Priest/Wizard have 20 (that's my current party, didn't check the others). Now Wonder wizard misses all the time now that grazing is gone.

Edited November 17, 2017 by morhilane