Removing non class specific talents was a bad idea

[theBalthazar]

Why not stay on the logical.

 

Barbarian + Fighter + Paladin = Access to Two handed fighting style +15 % damage. (If really Obsidian don't want of general pool... An extension is necessary...)

 

AND

 

Combine a double option. +15 % in barbarian. +15 % in a fighter = 30 % with the duo in multiclass !

 

Single class side :

A BIG bonus for empower, like +2 level (compared to now and compared to multiclass mostly). A specialization is not a hollow concept.

 

More choice, even more choice. More Combo possible ! It is the road of pleasure for Build a character.

 

Barbarian is already not the best class.

 

Think to a single class...

 

Barbarian don't have much more option than POE1...

 

-------

 

Exemple : We are on FIRE EMBLEM. A basic exemple.

 

A swordmaster, specialist of his art have a BONUS for his specialisation (+20 % critical). He handles a single type of weapon with counterpart of master his sword.

 

Here, there is a very limited counterpart. For me, when a single class empower, he gives everything and do amazing damage. If not : why single class ? It is a powerful specialisation...

Edited November 17, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Katarack21]

 

Why is Two Handed Style fighter exclusive without multiclassing? Why?

Because Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin, Monk get class flavored version that do similar things that didn't exist in POE1 (for the most part, some stuff was tweaked too). Ranger need to be "fixed" to get their own.

Are you talking about Blooded and Retribution? Because those are entirely different abilities--Blooded only comes into play when your near-dead and Retribution only comes into play when your taking damage. And Retribution is the only one there that's new and could be claimed to be added to replace Two-Handed Style.

 

Blooded was a worthless talent because Two-Handed style existed, but removing the ability to take Two-Handed Style doesn't *improved*  Blooded. It's still a **** talent; it's just now the only option for improving weapon damage with my barbarian. It doesn't make me like the talent any more. It doens't make the talent intrinsically better, it just removes better choices.

[Boeroer]

And still single classes are boring to level because there are not enough abilites in each tier to choose from (because talents got removed and now it's only a few abilites). Honestly: where is the fun to always pick 2 out of 3 abilites in one tier? Now, instead of inventing a lot of new abilites to remove that problem I'd say make more abilites universal (preferably those that were universal talents before - seriously Deep Pockets only for rogues?) so that the pool for every class is bigger - without inventing anything new.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

The way they have things currently set up, my cipher is going to be drowning in weapon proficiencies they don't want by like level eight.

 

Return some general "weapon group" proficiencies like Two Handed Style or Gunner to the "choose a proficiency" table everyone can pick from, seems like it would be a good idea. It's a nice character building thing too, you want the feeling your character has specialized in guns or bows or whatever, or hasn't.

 

I think this might work, and the classes that currently have these things as talents could get something to further specialize them in these styles.  

 

For instance, a Fighter could gain bonus accuracy or damage as a Weapon Mastery type of Talent.  A Ranger get a further bonus to Marksman or gunner, as well.  I would move them a little further down the class tree to require some investment in the class before obtaining them.  Heck, they might get those now after level 5 for all we know.  I don't know. 

[DigitalCrack]

 

The way they have things currently set up, my cipher is going to be drowning in weapon proficiencies they don't want by like level eight.

 

Return some general "weapon group" proficiencies like Two Handed Style or Gunner to the "choose a proficiency" table everyone can pick from, seems like it would be a good idea. It's a nice character building thing too, you want the feeling your character has specialized in guns or bows or whatever, or hasn't.

I think this might work, and the classes that currently have these things as talents could get something to further specialize them in these styles.

 

For instance, a Fighter could gain bonus accuracy or damage as a Weapon Mastery type of Talent. A Ranger get a further bonus to Marksman or gunner, as well. I would move them a little further down the class tree to require some investment in the class before obtaining them. Heck, they might get those now after level 5 for all we know. I don't know.

The Ranger needs so many other things besides more ranged options.. That class dissapointed me the most with its current state considering Josh came out and said that Rangers have melee as an option (by design) this time around and that's absolutely false. Even the "melee" ranger subclass has ZERO melee abilities haha. Literally all Ranger subs play exactly the same way and sharpshooter sub is the only one thats even worth taking since most all ranger abilities are ranged only he gets a decent boost. Edited November 17, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[Ganrich]

Oh, I am definitely not saying that is all the ranger needs.  Particularly the Stalker.  Just giving the general idea of what might be an appropriate olive branch in respect to the grievances of the thread. 

[theBalthazar]

Except with multiclass, the game is less "sandbox", sadly.

 

For me the definition of "talent" in POE1 is "free developpement, without link with the class"

 

If not, you have ABILITIES. It was class specific.

 

For me, this repartition is smart. In POE2 beta, we lost this specificity, this flexibility. It is a bad thing.

 

There is no excuse of "if not everybody take the same talent" Oh yes and with this system ? It is worst ! Talent being locked, that will be worst ! (+ with less talents to chose atm)

Edited November 17, 2017 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

Okay, having spent more time in the beta I find myself agreeing with Boeroer's sentiment completely. The removal of universal talents is a mistake and makes single class characters feel very railroaded in their development. I find it particularly bizarre that mages and priests (possibly other classes?) get no talent options at all.

[Doppelschwert]

This thread is blatantly blowing the 'limited' build options of characters out of proportions; at least if you treat PoE as the holy grail with this regard.

 

The ratio of class abilities per level that you can take them in is more or less constant if you compare PoE to PoE2, at least for all the martials. If you're shoehorned into making a specific build in PoE2, you were as well during the uneven levels of PoE1;

 

As for the general talents, which everyone can find here:

 

The passives just increase your numbers, and technically don't give you an edge over another class in the first place - if a fighter and a priest take weapon focus, their accuracy has the same differences as if they don't take them. In the end, it only boils down whether the game is balanced around assuming you have them or not.

 

Take a moment and imagine a world where PoE2 is balanced around not assuming everyone has +6 accuracy on their equipped weapon: mind = blown.

 

Most of the modals have been kept for specific weapons, so you can still access them through weapon proficiencies.

 

Which talents really added something besides flatout increasing some numbers?

I'd say quick switch, deep pockets, and arm bearer, since the healing skills are obsolete now.

 

Don't get me wrong - there certainly are classes that need more talents and most numbers need to be tweaked to make things more attractive alternatives, but in terms of numbers, if you remove the ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats, you have as many options in PoE2 as you had in PoE, and the game is far from finished, and neither is there an expansion that could improve this even more. Claiming the single classes lack from build option is ridiciolous.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[DigitalCrack]

@doppelschwert lack of options for single classes isnt "ridiculous" to say as really there are about 4 classes that are at least acceptable (to me anyway) however that isnt the norm. If you look at the priest, wizard, and ranger (best examples) tell me how to build them even slightly different without multiclassing? they are simply too heavily focused and limited to a single role. If you play a ranger you are ranged thats its even if you pick their "melee" subclass it doesnt change anything at all you are still stuck being exclusively ranged..

[PrimeJunta]

Put another way: my favourite P1 Watcher is a Pale Elf wizard focused toward maximum damage with implements. 

 

I can't do that in P2 as a pure wizard. The closest I can do in P2 is a Wizard/Ghost Heart Ranger, which is a pretty drastic change to the concept. This is a problem, as I would really like to continue as the character I finished with, even if I've been reset to level zero.

[fiddlesticks]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the game nixed stuff like Two-Handed Style entirely because purely number-increasing talents are always a boring choice that you only pick because they're mathematically advantageous rather than because they truly offer more interesting gameplay. But I can understand that some people would really like to make a very passive character whom they don't have to manage a whole lot, so leaving them to Fighters or Rangers or whatever seems like the next-best choice.

 

Put another way: my favourite P1 Watcher is a Pale Elf wizard focused toward maximum damage with implements. 

 

I can't do that in P2 as a pure wizard. The closest I can do in P2 is a Wizard/Ghost Heart Ranger, which is a pretty drastic change to the concept. This is a problem, as I would really like to continue as the character I finished with, even if I've been reset to level zero.

 

 

Isn't that the point of multiclassing though? If a pure Wizard were as good at fighting as a Fighter/Wizard, why even offer the second as an option?

Edited November 17, 2017 by fiddlesticks

[Breckmoney]

@DigitalCrack I mean his last paragraph was about exactly the stuff you're talking about. And I agree with him that so long as the game is balanced around everyone not having a certain talent then there's no actual gameplay difference. People may still want it as a flavor kind of thing I suppose but I'd rather they just craft more specialized class abilities instead.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Breckmoney

[IndiraLightfoot]

This thread is blatantly blowing the 'limited' build options of characters out of proportions; at least if you treat PoE as the holy grail with this regard.

 

 

As for the general talents, which everyone can find here:

 

The passives just increase your numbers, and technically don't give you an edge over another class in the first place -

 

 

Which talents really added something besides flatout increasing some numbers?

I'd say quick switch, deep pockets, and arm bearer, since the healing skills are obsolete now.

 

Don't get me wrong - there certainly are classes that need more talents and most numbers need to be tweaked to make things more attractive alternatives, but in terms of numbers, if you remove the ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats, you have as many options in PoE2 as you had in PoE, and the game is far from finished, and neither is there an expansion that could improve this even more. Claiming the single classes lack from build option is ridiciolous.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss 50+ general talents (You even give us the link), since you, personally, only liked three?

The rest are "ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats".

From this, you conclude: "Claiming that single classes lack build options is ridiculous".

 

This is not very objective of you. How about stepping back and consider the impact for all sorts of players:

-The newbies (who I mentioned earlier may be content in picking those talents you described as "boring")

-The casuals (They often pick whatever, and they like a lot to pick from, and don't care about system sleekness or effectiveness)

-The experienced PoE players (They love to adapt their characters to their playthroughs)

-The build experimenters (They thrive on choice and numbers.)

 

I want Deadfire to fit and accommodate for all these groups. PoE did a good job in that department, and now with multiclassing, I reckon only the sky is the limit.

Then we have the PoE2 of all of our hopes and dreams.

Edited November 18, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[MortyTheGobbo]

I really question whether such talents/abilities should exist at all. I rather hoped they'd get folded into proficiencies. Since most characters will take them anyway, why not assume that and apply it across the board? I'd really rather not pick between something fun and unique to my class and something that'll just bump my numbers up. Even if the bump in numbers is effective.

[JerekKruger]

The passives just increase your numbers, and technically don't give you an edge over another class in the first place - if a fighter and a priest take weapon focus, their accuracy has the same differences as if they don't take them. In the end, it only boils down whether the game is balanced around assuming you have them or not.

 

Take a moment and imagine a world where PoE2 is balanced around not assuming everyone has +6 accuracy on their equipped weapon: mind = blown.

 

I don't miss the Weapon Focus talents. I do miss the ability to give my Paladin Weapon and Shield Style, or my Wizard Secrets of the Rime, or balance out the Defences of my characters by taking the appropriate universal defensive talent.

[DigitalCrack]

@DigitalCrack I mean his last paragraph was about exactly the stuff you're talking about. And I agree with him that so long as the game is balanced around everyone not having a certain talent then there's no actual gameplay difference. People may still want it as a flavor kind of thing I suppose but I'd rather they just craft more specialized class abilities instead.

I am not saying I want generic stat boosters for every class. I would rather see Melee talents specialized for a ranger for example or even their ranged only active and passives allow for melee. The real thing people are looking for is at least a little flexibility within a single class which just simply doesnt exist. Your choices for diversity are either in even split with multiclassing (which sacrifices your top tier class abilities) or single class with no flexibility at all outside of 4 classes. I think its a valid criticism that why should a player have to suffer the sacrifice of multiclassing to quite literally have access to a single Talent that logically should be generic? Like sword and shield styleor two handed style, why arent these just general proficiencies (which makes more sense) instead of class specific talents?

Edited November 17, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[theBalthazar]

Don't get me wrong - there certainly are classes that need more talents and most numbers need to be tweaked to make things more attractive alternatives, but in terms of numbers, if you remove the ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats, you have as many options in PoE2 as you had in PoE, and the game is far from finished, and neither is there an expansion that could improve this even more. Claiming the single classes lack from build option is ridiciolous.

 

 

Except that a game system (numbers) is globally an illusion. A pretty illusion, but still an illusion.

 

But I prefer 50 illusions of choice rather than 10 illusions (the actuals talents are the same for 90 %)

 

Even a +10 % here and here create an interrest. EVEN a not selected talent offers a possible DIFFERENTIATION (even if the player don't chose the talent at the end)

 

THE CHOICE for players ^^ More possibilities, not less possibilities.

 

Stiffen everything is not a good idea. The best games RPG I played have OPEN system and severals approach.

 

Original SIN ! Talents + Traits + Abilities + Attributes.

 

All this is OPEN, without classes. A class can handle abilities, technical details (accuracy etc). But more it is a bad balancing. A boulevard... A streaming boulevard each level.

 

If the game go out now, at the time of the "original sin" etc, he will be crucified.

Edited November 17, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Doppelschwert]

@doppelschwert lack of options for single classes isnt "ridiculous" to say as really there are about 4 classes that are at least acceptable (to me anyway) however that isnt the norm. If you look at the priest, wizard, and ranger (best examples) tell me how to build them even slightly different without multiclassing? they are simply too heavily focused and limited to a single role. If you play a ranger you are ranged thats its even if you pick their "melee" subclass it doesnt change anything at all you are still stuck being exclusively ranged..

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, as you may see in this quote:

 

Don't get me wrong - there certainly are classes that need more talents and most numbers need to be tweaked to make things more attractive alternatives, but in terms of numbers, if you remove the ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats, you have as many options in PoE2 as you had in PoE, and the game is far from finished, and neither is there an expansion that could improve this even more. Claiming the single classes lack from build option is ridiciolous.

 

This IS a problem, but rather with execution than with design.

 

 

Put another way: my favourite P1 Watcher is a Pale Elf wizard focused toward maximum damage with implements. 

 

I can't do that in P2 as a pure wizard. The closest I can do in P2 is a Wizard/Ghost Heart Ranger, which is a pretty drastic change to the concept. This is a problem, as I would really like to continue as the character I finished with, even if I've been reset to level zero.

 

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it's a duck. You can build the same character in PoE, only difference is that he's not called a wizard anymore. What's the actual problem? Why does the regular wizard need to be the guy to pull it off? You even keep all the wizard related dialogue options.

I'm not trying to mock you, that's a sincere question.

 

 

 

This thread is blatantly blowing the 'limited' build options of characters out of proportions; at least if you treat PoE as the holy grail with this regard.

 

 

As for the general talents, which everyone can find here:

 

The passives just increase your numbers, and technically don't give you an edge over another class in the first place -

 

 

Which talents really added something besides flatout increasing some numbers?

I'd say quick switch, deep pockets, and arm bearer, since the healing skills are obsolete now.

 

Don't get me wrong - there certainly are classes that need more talents and most numbers need to be tweaked to make things more attractive alternatives, but in terms of numbers, if you remove the ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats, you have as many options in PoE2 as you had in PoE, and the game is far from finished, and neither is there an expansion that could improve this even more. Claiming the single classes lack from build option is ridiciolous.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss 50+ general talents (You even give us the link), since you, personally, only liked three?

The rest are "ACTUAL boring talents that generically increase your stats".

From this, you conclude: "Claiming that single classes lack build options is ridiculous".

 

This is not very objective of you. How about stepping back and consider the impact for all sorts of players:

-The newbies (who I mentioned earlier may be content in picking those talents you described as "boring")

-The casuals (They often pick whatever, and they like a lot to pick from, and don't care about system sleekness or effectiveness)

-The experienced PoE players (They love to adapt their characters to their playthroughs)

-The build experimenters (They thrive on choice and numbers.)

 

I want Deafire to fit and accommodate for all these groups. PoE did a good job in that department, and now with multiclassing, I reckon only the sky is the limit.

Then we have the PoE2 of all of our hopes and dreams.

 

 

I disregard the passive talents because they don't change how you can play the game. All the active abilities come from class talents, and those have stayed roughly the same in number. My conclusion is that all the general talents have achieved is shifting some number upgrades around. Do you have a different build when you trade a talent that adds accuracy for one that adds deflection? How can anyone claim the general talents opened up more builds when they don't change your toolkit in the slightest?

I don't even like quick switch, deep pockets, and arm bearer, but I can acknowledge that they allow you to approach the game differently. The passives all just depend on the assumptions the game makes about your stats. If you take them away and the game balances accordingly, what have you truly lost in terms of options? Nothing, you can play the same characters as before.

 

And the single classes will still get exclusive access to the two highest power level abilities.

 

 

EDIT:

Also, regarding the weapon styles:

You still get the benefits of all the styles, just like in the original game:

Two-handers deal more damage, dual wielding slightly reduces recovery, shields increase deflection and one-handed increases accuracy.

The only thing you are missing is having bigger numbers, but the tactical considerations of each setup are still there.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[Breckmoney]

 

@DigitalCrack I mean his last paragraph was about exactly the stuff you're talking about. And I agree with him that so long as the game is balanced around everyone not having a certain talent then there's no actual gameplay difference. People may still want it as a flavor kind of thing I suppose but I'd rather they just craft more specialized class abilities instead.

I am not saying I want generic stat boosters for every class. I would rather see Melee talents specialized for a ranger for example or even their ranged only active and passives allow for melee. The real thing people are looking for is at least a little flexibility within a single class which just simply doesnt exist. Your choices for diversity are either in even split with multiclassing (which sacrifices your top tier class abilities) or single class with no flexibility at all outside of 4 classes. I think its a valid criticism that why should a player have to suffer the sacrifice of multiclassing to quite literally have access to a single Talent that logically should be generic? Like sword and shield styleor two handed style, why arent these just general proficiencies (which makes more sense) instead of class specific talents?

I haven't seen anyone arguing that classes shouldn't be fleshed out further. Some more than others, but everyone could use more options. I just think that giving everyone some generic number-increasing talents is pretty uninteresting. They make sense on a fighter - he's a very uninteresting guy. Almost everything on the class is about making his back and forth trading power in combat virtually unmatched. It's his thing. I just want Paladins to have a different thing that works towards the same ideal. Two-handed Style doesn't do anything unique that the Paladin would be losing, it just makes the numbers go up. So why not have a more thematic way of making numbers go up?

 

I realize this is a lot to ask of game designers and if they put in a pool of generic abilities I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'd just rather it be this way instead.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Breckmoney

[theBalthazar]

I haven't seen anyone arguing that classes shouldn't be fleshed out further. Some more than others, but everyone could use more options. I just think that giving everyone some generic number-increasing talents is pretty uninteresting.

 

 

If you want class specific, there is abilities.

 

If the devs WANT an additionnal 15 % for x reasons. CREATE a new abilitie ! During 45 seconds, the fighter gain +15 % in two handed. End.

 

It is clear and simple!^^

 

but keeping more options is worth more than a differentiation that does not make sense.

 

I asked the question again, why, the barbarian could not have this talent ? When over talent is duplicate for several classes. (Will reflex etc especially)

Edited November 17, 2017 by theBalthazar

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I disregard the passive talents because they don't change how you can play the game. All the active abilities come from class talents, and those have stayed roughly the same in number. My conclusion is that all the general talents have achieved is shifting some number upgrades around. Do you have a different build when you trade a talent that adds accuracy for one that adds deflection? How can anyone claim the general talents opened up more builds when they don't change your toolkit in the slightest?

I don't even like quick switch, deep pockets, and arm bearer, but I can acknowledge that they allow you to approach the game differently. The passives all just depend on the assumptions the game makes about your stats. If you take them away and the game balances accordingly, what have you truly lost in terms of options? Nothing, you can play the same characters as before.

 

And the single classes will still get exclusive access to the two highest power level abilities.

 

Hm, let me see if I get you here. I think you mean that almost all those passive talents only change numbers, like, they're only minor adjustments under the hood of a machine? 

And then something like Deep Pockets at least alters gameplay a little bit?

I respect your opinion on this, but know this:

Most people who played PoE 1 had factual and lasting alterations of their playthrough because of their choices of the aforementioned passive talents.

Compare this to a computer. It's like one of them makes the sound system slightly crisper, or the motherboard a bit more reliable, or perhaps, you do get a somewhat faster response time on your hard drive. And for tech nerds (in this case build enthusiasts), all this tech and all these numbers make up fun and important choices for how they build their machine or character.

 

As for the single classes getting exclusive talents. Well, yes, at the end, but I've played through PoE1 a number of times, and it was never necessary for me to reach the top levels. It's too little, too late, I reckon.  

Edited November 17, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

@DigitalCrack I mean his last paragraph was about exactly the stuff you're talking about. And I agree with him that so long as the game is balanced around everyone not having a certain talent then there's no actual gameplay difference. People may still want it as a flavor kind of thing I suppose but I'd rather they just craft more specialized class abilities instead.

I am not saying I want generic stat boosters for every class. I would rather see Melee talents specialized for a ranger for example or even their ranged only active and passives allow for melee. The real thing people are looking for is at least a little flexibility within a single class which just simply doesnt exist. Your choices for diversity are either in even split with multiclassing (which sacrifices your top tier class abilities) or single class with no flexibility at all outside of 4 classes. I think its a valid criticism that why should a player have to suffer the sacrifice of multiclassing to quite literally have access to a single Talent that logically should be generic? Like sword and shield styleor two handed style, why arent these just general proficiencies (which makes more sense) instead of class specific talents?

I haven't seen anyone arguing that classes shouldn't be fleshed out further. Some more than others, but everyone could use more options. I just think that giving everyone some generic number-increasing talents is pretty uninteresting. They make sense on a fighter - he's a very uninteresting guy. Almost everything on the class is about making his back and forth trading power in combat virtually unmatched. It's his thing. I just want Paladins to have a different thing that works towards the same ideal. Two-handed Style doesn't do anything unique that the Paladin would be losing, it just makes the numbers go up. So why not have a more thematic way of making numbers go up?

 

I realize this is a lot to ask of game designers and if they put in a pool of generic abilities I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'd just rather it be this way instead.

I am more or less in agreement with you and I am not terribly interested in how its done but individual classes just are not fleshed out as they should be and they need to allow some flexibility role wise without going full-on multiclass just to deviate slightly role wise.

[Breckmoney]

 

I haven't seen anyone arguing that classes shouldn't be fleshed out further. Some more than others, but everyone could use more options. I just think that giving everyone some generic number-increasing talents is pretty uninteresting.

 

If you want class specific, there is abilities.

 

If the devs WANT an additionnal 15 % for x reasons. CREATE a new abilitie ! During 45 seconds, the fighter gain +15 % in two handed. End.

 

It is clear and simple!^^

 

but keeping more options is worth more than a differentiation that does not make sense.

 

I asked the question again, why, the barbarian could not have this talent ? When over talent is duplicate for several classes. (Will reflex etc especially)

I guess I don't get why it doesn't make sense. A paladin as a class is balanced in part around doing a certain amount of damage. If you just give him a talent that can make you do 20% more damage then you need to curtail his other abilities a bit or make enemies a bit beefier. Instead the abilities specific to a Paladin should come together to make up his offensive abilities and he should get talents that reflect that it's a different class, even if they do the exact same thing. Like instead of Two-Weapon Style you get to modify Faith and Devotion to increase your damage by a certain % with certain conditions, whatever. They're both just ways that increase your auto attack damage themed differently.

[theBalthazar]

I guess I don't get why it doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

Analyse of NWN1 and 2

Recall of facts :

 

NWN Feats (Equivalence of Talents in POE) = Class feats + Racial Feats + GENERAL feats + CONDITIONNAL feats (Constitution 21+ etc)

 

Level of liberty = 90 %

 

------------

 

POE2 beta Talents = Class talents.

 

Level of liberty = 20 % (Chose a class and it is all)

Edited November 17, 2017 by theBalthazar