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EbonyBetty

Games so good it costs human misery to make them.

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CDPR isn't even among the worst. Check out the stories from Rockstar and Japanese development. The book "Blood, Sweat, and Pixels" has some fascinating accounts on the issue. The industry has a massive problem with handling this, expecting so many many to place their entire lives into the job. And even this ****show is not as bad as the situation in silicon valley.

Yup, everyone interested in how games are being made should read the book. Crunching is a wide spread problem in the industry unfortunately

Crunching isn't the issue; poorly managed projects due to upper management ****ing up and having the workers fixing up their mistakes so they can write themselves a big fat bonus, is the problem.

I firmly believe in letting things break and become the worst, that seems the only way to get upper management to get with project.

Well crunch is the problem, but management is the cause (for the most part, probably are some cases when it can be other areas). Project management sure isn't easy, have to deal with a lot of politics some of the time which causes screw ups. My current company has that issue in spades.

 

I should clear up, I consider project managers below upper management. I'm talking CFO, CEO, COO and those directly below them; I'm a position to know that PMs have it way too hard. 


I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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I mean, is any of this even new?  We've known for years how exploitive (for lack of a better word) the game industry can be to its workers.

 

It seems like it's suddenly "come to light" because of a few complaints about the newest industry darling (CDPR), not because this is somehow a new thing.


"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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"African American MALES only making up 9% of the industry"

 

I know this isn'ty an Ameirkan company... but what % do you think AA MALES make up in the US or this country's population?  AA totally make up approximately 13% of the US population for example so I am going to hazard a guess that AA males more than have their share of representation. Other minorities likely not so much...

 

What are you responding to?

 

 

The OP said this. It's not wrong, but Volourn is also not wrong. I think African American (male) representation in the games industry is pretty good comparatively. Any kind of woman... not so much although that's getting a lot better.


The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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I doubt the numbers are so low because everyone's a racist, but because there aren't enough such skilled people in the field. Pretty sure that if you're a great programmer or graphic designer, nobody is going to pass up on you just because you're black or a woman. That would be hella stupid in todays industry.

Edited by Lexx
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"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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Hah! Airconditioning is for servers, not puny game devs! And offices are optional for QA at least. I knew people in QA who worked in temporary cubicles in empty warehouses with porta-potties instead of indoor plumbing. If that's how game devs are treated now, maybe I'll go back to it. I worked in everything from basements to "refurbished" apartments sitting next an old bath tub myself. Another local company that I haven't worked for so I can name them, Grendel Games, built up their offices in a former century-old prison.

Edited by TrueNeutral
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The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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Gummy bears made by slaves

 

Well, poor guys. They have it almost as bad as game industry workers sitting in air-conditioned offices with thousands of dollars salaries, almost as bad...

I can see both issues as unjust without having to compare them, my personal grievance is that after emigrating to what I thought would be a better place I find the same cage except now its gilded. The sheer stupidity of not asking to better your conditions because someone has it worse is ridiculous, they can care for themselves and I will do the same for myself. The worst is when this argument comes from people who are not themselves in optimal conditions and ask others to sacrifice their standards for others. Asking the barista at Starbucks to not have AC so that children in Third World countries can have it better; whilst the 1% still have it worlds above better than everyone, that just sounds like the stupidest form of Socialism ever.

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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Gummy bears made by slaves

 

Well, poor guys. They have it almost as bad as game industry workers sitting in air-conditioned offices with thousands of dollars salaries, almost as bad...

Blessed is he who learns to love the lash

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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"I can see both issues as unjust without having to compare them, my personal grievance is that after emigrating to what I thought would be a better place I find the same cage except now its gilded. The sheer stupidity of not asking to better your conditions because someone has it worse is ridiculous, they can care for themselves and I will do the same for myself. The worst is when this argument comes from people who are not themselves in optimal conditions and ask others to sacrifice their standards for others. Asking the barista at Starbucks to not have AC so that children in Third World countries can have it better; whilst the 1% still have it worlds above better than everyone, that just sounds like the stupidest form of Socialism ever."

 

Agreed. the diea that equality should be achieved by lowering the satndards for everybody is dumb.  The goal should be raising the standards for everybody. Rise up not bring down.

 

It is like non contract/non gov't workers whining about union/gov't workers doing better than them. Instead of demanding those workers get screwed over by having their benefits slashed the push should be to get non union/non gov't workers UP to their level. LMAO

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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So, what you're saying is game devs should just suck it up and accept their privelige?


The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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I guess so actually when it's common place for the hourly workers are working in areas that aren't fully staffed and having to do what they do as well as the jobs they didn't hire anyone for because why when u can overwork workers and get rid of them when they can't keep up with 3-6 people's job they supposed to be doing because there's tons more waiting to be wrong out as well.

 

Meaning weither u work hourly/salary/independent, ur gonna get wrung out eventually and deal with real ****ty work standards and practices. And what are we told and tell everyone, if ya don't like it find a different job.

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Gummy bears made by slaves

 

Well, poor guys. They have it almost as bad as game industry workers sitting in air-conditioned offices with thousands of dollars salaries, almost as bad...

I can see both issues as unjust without having to compare them, my personal grievance is that after emigrating to what I thought would be a better place I find the same cage except now its gilded. The sheer stupidity of not asking to better your conditions because someone has it worse is ridiculous, they can care for themselves and I will do the same for myself. The worst is when this argument comes from people who are not themselves in optimal conditions and ask others to sacrifice their standards for others. Asking the barista at Starbucks to not have AC so that children in Third World countries can have it better; whilst the 1% still have it worlds above better than everyone, that just sounds like the stupidest form of Socialism ever.

 

Sure, everyone is entitled to better his/hers condition. That is indisputable and normal. So choose the company you want to work with, leave if it's not suitable, ask for raise or enhancing of condition to your superiors, even sue if your rights are violated. I'm all for that.

However if you whistleblow to public opinion and paint yourself as the most oppressed and exploited people you need to be prepared that people would call you out on that and not nod in agreement with you. That's all.

 

The whole point of whistleblowing is to better the overall conditions by forcing management to make a change, or at least pretend to just for the sake of public's opinion. If all the public thought like you do they could get away with anything since its not going to affect their stock and no one is going to boycott them.

Moreover, you make it sound as if workers have a plethora of options, which they don't. Once you bring family and kids into the mix, you are stuck within a radius and if there's only one company from your industry within that radius you're **** outta luck. Unless you manage to convince your spouse to move to a different place, which becomes very complicated.

Finally, I don't think I need to explain the dangers of rocking the boat. That's just painting a target on your back asking to be demoted to part timer and then slowly pushed out. Why not outright fired? Cause they don't want to pay unemployment benefits.

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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"I doubt the numbers are so low because everyone's a racist,"

 

Those numbers for black men in the industry (if they are accurate) arne'tlow at all. In fact,  going by general population numbers in  NA and likely Europe, black men probably have a % of shares compared to the general population. Again, blacks are about 13-14% of the US population. At 9% that is more than likely more than they have  since men-women are  almost 50-50 (slight edge to women). That means to have  true population repsentation black men should approx. 6-7%, They have 9%. They are ahead of the game. Othe rminorities  are the ones trailing.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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OP wrote about black + woman.


"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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I thought the Polish jokes came from the apocryphal story about Polish cavalry charging German tanks in WW2?

 

Does every industry in Poland have unions? Most tech jobs in the US do not.

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That's all well and good, but when jobs demand far outstrips jobs supply, the collective bargaining power of workers is greatly diminished. They simply have no leverage because they can be easily replaced. And the gap between demand and supply is only going to get wider.

 

Furthermore, it's contradictory that workers would be unwilling to cause trouble by organizing collective protests and strikes to obtain better working conditions for fear of damaging the company they also are a part of if they are certain they can easily find work elsewhere, if their demands aren't met.

 

However, it's absolutely true that anyone can find work if they really want to. Just ask the Chinese slaves building high rises in Dubai, or the Eastern European girls selling their bodies for £4 in Liverpool.

 

So stop demanding handouts and pull yourselves up by your bootstraps.

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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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"OP wrote about black + woman."

 

The OP specifically posted the 9% number for black males and made the point that the number was 'low' and 'unfair' when it clearly isn't. The number for  black males (again, if the number used is accurate) is more than fair.  Black males - by that number - are very likely 'over represented' so why bring it up at all? Where are the numbers for black women or other minorties who might actually be getting the shaft (in terms of  numbers not in actual; racism)?


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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And my post was about nobody passing up on skilled folks because of their color or gender. If you're a good programmer, you could still find a job in the industry even if you're pink and got 5 legs.

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"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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And my post was about nobody passing up on skilled folks because of their color or gender. If you're a good programmer, you could still find a job in the industry even if you're pink and got 5 legs.

 

Actually I'd hire women if at all available and qualified. I hear they work for much less than their male counterparts. ;)

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And my post was about nobody passing up on skilled folks because of their color or gender. If you're a good programmer, you could still find a job in the industry even if you're pink and got 5 legs.

Eh, I dunno. Been through hiring processes and see good people binned for the most nonsensical of reasons.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Then the company didn't really need the set of skills. :cat:

Edited by Lexx

"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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Then the company didn't really need the set of skills. :cat:

Yeah, other than one time someone not wanting someone who was "obviously" gay, most of the reasons have been stupid rather than discriminatory. Funniest reason was that the guy was too into programming to be hired as a programmer


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Well, then I dunno. It's the gaming biz, so in worst case one can try to do stuff on their own, indie-style. Might be harder and doesn't necessarily work out, but it can totally be done. There's lots of studios now working purely via the internet as well, so you don't even have to see each other anymore face to face either.

Edited by Lexx

"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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Then the company didn't really need the set of skills. :cat:

Yeah, other than one time someone not wanting someone who was "obviously" gay, most of the reasons have been stupid rather than discriminatory. Funniest reason was that the guy was too into programming to be hired as a programmer

 

Oh yeah, that one I've seen too. The last opening we filled didn't go to the nerd who showed up in a Slayer sweatshirt* because, uhm, he was a "full-blooded" coder. The main concern was that someone like that wouldn't be able to understand the needs of the users and would produce needlessly complex modules that nobody can work with - just like the guy who quit did (except that guy got his "skills" during his electrical engineering education... programming microcontrollers which he picked up as an ECA of all things).

 

*I have to admit that I was impressed that this wasn't cited as the reason for not hiring the guy. Much less impressed with the real reason tho. Especially because the guy we hired had prior experience in... programming microcontrollers. Man, what could possibly be any more removed from OOP development of ERP software modules? *sigh*

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Well Slayer sucks so that's reason enough :p

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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