How 'bout some actual caster weapons

[MaxQuest]

 

For example The Flames of Fair Rhîan sabre.

On account of what, giving you extra Fireballs?

 

Well, technically it is.

It is pretty bad from from auto-attacking perspective since there are better alternatives.

But at the same time it's a simple sabre with basically 3 "Bonus rank 3 spell" talents, although hard-selected to be fireballs.

 

But yes, generally I understood your stance, and I agree that it would be nice to have weapons that augment spells power, effects or duration.

 

Heh, atm I have my ranged fire priest running with Abydon's hammer, because of the per-encounter stun and 4 MIG.

 

Casters don't really use weapons and it doesn't really make much sense for a weapon to affect spells, unless it's a magically enchanted weapon specifically for that purpose.

What about wizard + staff stereotype? I was under impression that some staves make it easier to channel direct spells. And serves as some conductors of sorts.

 

Sawyer is a bit of an RPG elitist. He doesn't want to play the normal, typical RPG and if you do, he is frustrated by you and doesn't understand you. "Player inertia" in this context is literally just "people don't want to play that, they want to play this".

Looks pretty accurate.

If only he would add a bit of hardcore to that elitism, because atm Obsidian does balance the game only around Normal and Hard difficulties, which means... little love for rogues, and single-target dps builds.

Edited October 17, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Fardragon]

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

[Wormerine]

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

I want historical RPG Josh is mentioning. In of the interview Feargus mentioned an idea to do Noir RPG which is something I have been wanting for a long long time. I would take Cyberpunk over space opera.

[Lephys]

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

 

I love fantasy, but I just wish the industry would ditch their preconceptions about magic. I'm still waiting to be able to play a Wizard/Mage who grabs a chain, enchants it, then fights with that like Ghost Rider. Or, there's always the lightning whip from GW2/ Brontide spell from Dragon's Dogma.

 

There are just so many more creative ways for magic to be used than "I'm a pansy and stand far away and hope no one notices whilst I summon meteor storms." There's still this overly rigid "you're a ranged projectile wielder" preconception about casters in RPGs, especially fantasy settings. About the only magic we ever see applied to melee is merely to amplify existing melee capabilities (i.e. "I'm faster/stronger/shielded now!"). Even magical summoned weapons tend to just be essentially existing enchanted weapons in the game world, just without you having to go loot/enchant them. Or maybe they have some specific combo/degree of enchantments that you can't actually craft into a weapon, so it's like "Oh, this leeches 3 health on hit AND has +3 to hit." It's just not very reinforcing of "a spell freakin' wove this object into existence."

[Valci]

Why is this a "preconception" in the world of PoE though? As far as I can remember the idea is that magic takes a lot of study and is also physically demanding. It's all about "mens sana in corpore sank" for me... But it also implies that the character didn't have the time to dedicate to martial training which others like the fighters were doing from a young age. It makes sense in the setting at least.

In addition to that it's about trade offs and balance too... Why would you ever pick a fighter of you can just pick a mage that can fight just as well while at the same time having the ability to enhance himself, his weapons and their the occasional fireball at you? Moreover, in Deadfire we have multiclassing and something like a fighter/mage will more or less be able to do just that... The trade off being that since you focus on 2 disciplines simultaneously you'll gain your powers slower and won't specialize as far as a single class will (won't gain access to the very high end abilities)... As far as we know all multi classes will also have a stand alone name like "battlemage" ... So I don't really see the problem here...

Edited October 17, 2017 by Valci

[Fardragon]

 

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

I want historical RPG Josh is mentioning. In of the interview Feargus mentioned an idea to do Noir RPG which is something I have been wanting for a long long time. I would take Cyberpunk over space opera.

 

 

Cyberpunk has been done - the Shadowrun games aint bad, and there are others. Anyway, I am sick and tired of grimdark. I want bright colours, rocket ships, ray guns, and small furry aliens from Alpha Centuri.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

I want historical RPG Josh is mentioning. In of the interview Feargus mentioned an idea to do Noir RPG which is something I have been wanting for a long long time. I would take Cyberpunk over space opera.

 

 

Cyberpunk has been done - the Shadowrun games aint bad, and there are others. Anyway, I am sick and tired of grimdark. I want bright colours, rocket ships, ray guns, and small furry aliens from Alpha Centuri.

 

Shadowrun ain't Cyberpunk.  It has qualities from Cyberpunk, but it has dwarves, elves, orcs, magic, etc that detracts from the cyber and punk elements that are meant to be the heart of cyberpunk. 

[Fardragon]

 

 

 

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

I want historical RPG Josh is mentioning. In of the interview Feargus mentioned an idea to do Noir RPG which is something I have been wanting for a long long time. I would take Cyberpunk over space opera.

 

 

Cyberpunk has been done - the Shadowrun games aint bad, and there are others. Anyway, I am sick and tired of grimdark. I want bright colours, rocket ships, ray guns, and small furry aliens from Alpha Centuri.

 

Shadowrun ain't Cyberpunk.  It has qualities from Cyberpunk, but it has dwarves, elves, orcs, magic, etc that detracts from the cyber and punk elements that are meant to be the heart of cyberpunk. 

 

 

Shadowrun has fantasy elements because Cyber and Punk alone = real life.

[Lephys]

Why is this a "preconception" in the world of PoE though? As far as I can remember the idea is that magic takes a lot of study and is also physically demanding. It's all about "mens sana in corpore sank" for me... But it also implies that the character didn't have the time to dedicate to martial training which others like the fighters were doing from a young age. It makes sense in the setting at least.

 

I never said it was a problem in the setting. However, the setting was hand-crafted by human brains with a preconception of magic. Or, more specifically, it's not really Obsidian's fault that I don't get more than one preconception of magic in games. It's more the industry as a whole. PoE's a lot better than others. The worst culprits are the "You get firebolt, ice bolt, or lightning bolt. Then you get fire AoE, ice AoE, or chain lightning. BOOM! You're a mage! Creativity, FOREGONE!" games.

 

But, really, just the idea that anyone who wields magic must be a squishy, ranged person who just tosses out giant bombshells and hopes they never get close to someone is pretty prevalent in fantasy RPGs. You don't see a lot else. Even when you do, it's just a 50/50 blend of regular weapon fighting and ranged bomb-tossing to make a super edgy/cool "battlemage." Which is cool, I suppose, but they're just missing so many good opportunities to say "Hey, what about just a melee mage, whose magic was designed around fighting up-close?" It would just be a different approach to the employment of magic, entirely.

 

I'm not saying no one's ever done it. It's just extremely rare. I believe the fundamental preconception of how magic works is a barrier to creative design.

[smjjames]

 

 

 

 

I think it would be easier to ditch player's preconceptions if they just ditched the fantasy genre.

 

But that's me, waiting for a space opera crpg since forever.

I want historical RPG Josh is mentioning. In of the interview Feargus mentioned an idea to do Noir RPG which is something I have been wanting for a long long time. I would take Cyberpunk over space opera.

 

 

Cyberpunk has been done - the Shadowrun games aint bad, and there are others. Anyway, I am sick and tired of grimdark. I want bright colours, rocket ships, ray guns, and small furry aliens from Alpha Centuri.

 

Shadowrun ain't Cyberpunk.  It has qualities from Cyberpunk, but it has dwarves, elves, orcs, magic, etc that detracts from the cyber and punk elements that are meant to be the heart of cyberpunk. 

 

 

Shadowrun has fantasy elements because Cyber and Punk alone = real life.

 

 

Doesn't shadowrun have elements of steampunk as well? Plus it's in freaking outer space, or am I thinking of a different DnD spinoff? Or rather it has outer space as a 'plane' or something. Edit: Actually, I'm thinking of Spelljammer I believe.

Edited October 18, 2017 by smjjames

[Valci]

 

Why is this a "preconception" in the world of PoE though? As far as I can remember the idea is that magic takes a lot of study and is also physically demanding. It's all about "mens sana in corpore sank" for me... But it also implies that the character didn't have the time to dedicate to martial training which others like the fighters were doing from a young age. It makes sense in the setting at least.

I never said it was a problem in the setting. However, the setting was hand-crafted by human brains with a preconception of magic. Or, more specifically, it's not really Obsidian's fault that I don't get more than one preconception of magic in games. It's more the industry as a whole. PoE's a lot better than others. The worst culprits are the "You get firebolt, ice bolt, or lightning bolt. Then you get fire AoE, ice AoE, or chain lightning. BOOM! You're a mage! Creativity, FOREGONE!" games.

 

But, really, just the idea that anyone who wields magic must be a squishy, ranged person who just tosses out giant bombshells and hopes they never get close to someone is pretty prevalent in fantasy RPGs. You don't see a lot else. Even when you do, it's just a 50/50 blend of regular weapon fighting and ranged bomb-tossing to make a super edgy/cool "battlemage." Which is cool, I suppose, but they're just missing so many good opportunities to say "Hey, what about just a melee mage, whose magic was designed around fighting up-close?" It would just be a different approach to the employment of magic, entirely.

 

I'm not saying no one's ever done it. It's just extremely rare. I believe the fundamental preconception of how magic works is a barrier to creative design.

I agree that there are a lot of creative ways you can "work the magic" as it were ... But for me a lot would be non combat related to tell you the truth...

... Either way, I believe that what you're taking about could feasibly work but less so in a class based system imho. At least not in a meaningful enough way to differentiate from already existing classes while not making them redundant at the same time... At least to me (and plz correct me if I'm wrong) it looks like what you're talking about is sort of a paladin but instead of faith/belief giving him "powers" it's arcane knowledge... Now, in a skill based (classless) system which is balanced as such you could feasibly build such a character but as it is in PoE you either get something that's too similar or something that is so powerful that it makes other classes redundant. Or maybe I'm just lacking in imagination... there's always that possibility

Edited October 18, 2017 by Valci

[Lord_Mord]

Doesn't shadowrun have elements of steampunk as well? Plus it's in freaking outer space, or am I thinking of a different DnD spinoff? Or rather it has outer space as a 'plane' or something. Edit: Actually, I'm thinking of Spelljammer I believe.

 

You do. Shadowrun is that thing with dragons leading megacorporations, techno shamans and ****ed up, drugged elven whores with brain implants.

 

 

 

Which is cool, I suppose, but they're just missing so many good opportunities to say "Hey, what about just a melee mage, whose magic was designed around fighting up-close?" It would just be a different approach to the employment of magic, entirely.

 

Personally I would choose a totally different path, make fighting low priority for mages and go for mind control, illusions, all kinds of utility spells or even cheap card tricks and stuff. But basically your right. Especially the part with firebolt, icebolt and lighning bold. That is so annoying. And the reason I never finished Tyranny, even if I liked the story and setting.

[injurai]

I think some of this concern is partially being met by weapon's unique specials/modals that are unlocked through weapon proficiencies.

 

 

Yes, if you look at Sawyer's recent talk, he is trying to get away from the wizards in dresses using staves and daggers trope, and is somewhat frustrated by player-inertia.

Sawyer is a bit of an RPG elitist. He doesn't want to play the normal, typical RPG and if you do, he is frustrated by you and doesn't understand you. "Player inertia" in this context is literally just "people don't want to play that, they want to play this".

It helps to make him a really good game designer, as long as he's bound by editors and rules to prevent himself from going to far.

 

 

I think we need people like Sawyer to move rpgs forward. Forward doesn't even have to be a specific direction, simply off the map into uncharted territory. Sometimes you just need a whole new set of first principles to hang your mechanics from.

[Lephys]

... Either way, I believe that what you're taking about could feasibly work but less so in a class based system imho. At least not in a meaningful enough way to differentiate from already existing classes while not making them redundant at the same time... At least to me (and plz correct me if I'm wrong) it looks like what you're talking about is sort of a paladin but instead of faith/belief giving him "powers" it's arcane knowledge... Now, in a skill based (classless) system which is balanced as such you could feasibly build such a character but as it is in PoE you either get something that's too similar or something that is so powerful that it makes other classes redundant. Or maybe I'm just lacking in imagination... there's always that possibility

 

I understand that differentiation could be a concern. I'm not really looking for a specific class to be created. I'm more commenting on how Wizard/Mage class magic is treated, and how it could probably be expanded upon pretty easily. The melee-mage is just always my go-to example, because generally games have Mages = ranged. You get some short-ranged spells, sure, but they're still just ranged spells, by design. I think an expansion of creativity in the approach to magic would greatly benefit most fantasy RPGs.

 

I'm playing Dragon's Dogma right now (the newest release on PS4, even though the original game's a PS3 game from 2012), and even being the older game that it is, they do a LOT of fun stuff with the magic/ability system. There's a Magic Archer class (hybrid Ranger and Mage) that uses Magic Bows (exclusive weapon type - can't use ammo, so no poison arrows or fire arrows, etc.) that basically fires Magic Missiles in place of arrows. So already, just the basic attack is different and interesting. Then, all their abilities are very archer-like, but feel like completely different abilities, for the most part. It feels like what you'd do if you were a mage, but wanted to be an archer. "I'll use magic to fire my bow, and design my spells around archer/dagger abilities!".

 

This is a bit separate, and more of a presentation thing, but I feel like often the spells used by Mages tend to feel too much like their own things. Like you have a bunch of grenades in your inventory, but only Class X can pull the pin and throw them, if that makes sense. It doesn't feel very much like how you behave in combat is different from another class. Especially when you get the DnD style Mages, plus Priests, plus Druids, etc. Everyone just feels like people with exclusive access to different types of grenades, to an extent. So, making the feel of a class fit the style can go a long way, is all. The way in which casters use weapons makes a big difference.

[Mikey_205]

Baldurs Gate had some cool items for spell users. Have them add more spell uses, reduce spell time, cast from the item etc... That's more interesting than straight up increases. How about make them into robes of sequencong. Cast a spell on it and it stores that spell for n uses per day.

[1varangian]

In a furious attempt to get away from the "staff and robes" type of Wizard, they turned it into "stick and a book" type of Wizard. A bit underwhelming I think.

 

Why not give complete freedom from cliches then?

 

1. Separate the magical basic attack from equipment so you can use whatever weapon you want.

2. Create different kinds of arcane implements that buff spellcasting ability. Rods, orbs, books, staves, amulets, rings, whatever or craft your own style.

[anameforobsidian]

Baldurs Gate had some cool items for spell users. Have them add more spell uses, reduce spell time, cast from the item etc... That's more interesting than straight up increases. How about make them into robes of sequencong. Cast a spell on it and it stores that spell for n uses per day.

 

Pillars has those items too.  Any dex gear increases speed, there are tons of cast from item, and there are several rings of wizardry.  Robes of sequencing is a fun idea though.