Remove Restrictions and let this game breath

[daven]

COULDN'T CARE LESS!!!

 

Anyway, I have 0 interest in rest bonuses. I didn't care in the first game, not going to care here. It just feels like such a game-y sort of thing. Also eating fish wouldn't make you smarter for a few hours or whatever. Just make potions or whatever give bonuses. Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation.

 

ANYWAY!

[Ancelor]

I

 

COULDN'T CARE LESS!!!

 

Anyway, I have 0 interest in rest bonuses. I didn't care in the first game, not going to care here. It just feels like such a game-y sort of thing. Also eating fish wouldn't make you smarter for a few hours or whatever. Just make potions or whatever give bonuses. Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation.

 

ANYWAY!

I AGREE!!!

[Wormerine]

COULDN'T CARE LESS!!!

 

Anyway, I have 0 interest in rest bonuses. I didn't care in the first game, not going to care here. It just feels like such a game-y sort of thing. Also eating fish wouldn't make you smarter for a few hours or whatever. Just make potions or whatever give bonuses. Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation.

 

ANYWAY!

But... but... but...

 

Fish makes you smarter!

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/8846225/Eating-fish-can-make-you-smarter.html

[Lephys]

Now PoEII offers: get in fight-->die--->get injured-->rest to become uninjured--->rested too many times now a malus--->profit? I know, I know, the answer is to die less.

 

I honestly don't think that resting too many times directly bestows a malus upon you. You simply use up all your bonuses if you rest "too many times." It's like saying "if you use healing items too much, you will be forced to play with bad heals." If every time you take 15 damage, you use a 150-HP-healing potion, you will at some point run out of those, and be forced to use lesser, more common healing potions.

 

If this is not the case, and there's actually a "resting too much" malus ("unwell rested"? hehe), then they worded it VERY strangely, indeed.

[Lephys]

Also eating fish wouldn't make you smarter for a few hours or whatever. Just make potions or whatever give bonuses. Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation.

 

So... if you put gelatin into a "potion," and make it a solid that you could then eat, is it food, or is it a potion? What makes a potion magical and food not-magical, in a world in which magic exists and ingredients/reagents can have magical properties?

 

Also, just FYI, you're sending mixed signals by saying you haven't a care in the world about this, then proceeding to present arguments about it. o_O

[Goddard]

 

Also eating fish wouldn't make you smarter for a few hours or whatever. Just make potions or whatever give bonuses. Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation.

 

So... if you put gelatin into a "potion," and make it a solid that you could then eat, is it food, or is it a potion? What makes a potion magical and food not-magical, in a world in which magic exists and ingredients/reagents can have magical properties?

 

Also, just FYI, you're sending mixed signals by saying you haven't a care in the world about this, then proceeding to present arguments about it. o_O

 

 

 

Being a little too literal with your FYI.  You know what he means even if for whatever reason you dislike his opinion.

[Lephys]

I can assume what he means, but I don't actually know what he means. Taking the time and effort to discuss something is, by definition, caring about it. So, I don't know whether to actually respond with discussion-related substance to a post like that, or to ignore it because the person "doesn't care at all." Is it rude to exclude them from the discussion, or annoying to include them? I honestly have no idea.

[rjshae]

Rather than healing food and such, how about some enchanted soul spices that give you bonuses while rest? Just pick a particular spice to be your resting recuperative of choice, and that's the bonus you get. Some Inns can supply a house spice, a healing root, or some other unique balm with reputed benefits. But they only work while you rest up in the comfort of the locale.

[Lephys]

Good idea, rjshae. Maybe some kind of herbal baths/spa stuff in bigger cities? That could be cool, and would make sense for different/unique resting bonuses at certain establishments.

[Goddard]

The idea of eating food before combat is the same as pre-buffing except without the cool magic and visual effects.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Goddard

[1varangian]

I never liked the food buffs or rest bonuses either. They were just completely unnecessary nonsense that didn't add anything worthwhile to the game. Except the nagging feeling that your party isn't performing at their best because you didn't eat fish or apples or whatnot before battle.

[fireflame]

I agree that restrictions like these felt frustrating. What made gamesq like bg and fallout fun was also you could have a lot of freedom in how to handle fights and prepare them.

[WOLFGEIST]

While many of the mechanics in PoE may be unfamiliar to us and may seem strange on the surface, there really are multiple good reasons for the way nearly every mechanic works.

 

To get a better idea behind the thought process behind the design of POE you should watch Josh's presentation on attributes here:

 

Every mechanic design is a fine balancing act and is but one part of an ecosystem. One function can easily affect many others.

 

I believe the mechanics and design of POE are actually brilliant if not hard to appreciate at first.

 

If pre-buffing were enabled, fights would become too easy. If they buffed enemies to compensate then pre-buffing would become a tiring chore which personally does not sound fun to me.

 

As for buffs being suppressed, this prevents people from abusing mechanics. In BG2 for example, my Korgan had so many immunities and spell defense stacked that by the time I hit the Underdark I could basically auto win every fight.

 

In POE I have to manage my ecosystem of equipment and can't just blindly dump all of the good stuff into one person.

 

Camping is designed so that we can't just rest after every fight, we again must consider when and what abilities to use, otherwise we'd just use all of our bar abilities in every fight which takes all of the thought out of resource management.

[injurai]

I never liked the food buffs or rest bonuses either. They were just completely unnecessary nonsense that didn't add anything worthwhile to the game. Except the nagging feeling that your party isn't performing at their best because you didn't eat fish or apples or whatnot before battle.

 

I think I used consumables only a handful times when I was really in a pinch and wanted to just force the upper hand. But It's not particularly enjoyable to use as part of your primary gameplay loop. It's just busy work at that point.

[WOLFGEIST]

"It just feels like such a game-y sort of thing."

 

There's a really good reason for that - PoE is actually a game!

 

"Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation."

 

Games aren't intended to mimic real life. IRL we have a very strong incentive to eat, our biology rewards us greatly for it. It feels good, gives us energy, keeps us alive. It's enjoyable. We can't confer those inventives directly into the game, it's always going to be clicking a button to eat and there's no biological feedback mechanic to reward us.

 

So, within games we have to sort of amalgamate concepts and give them a way to work within there scope of a game. We can't taste or enjoy the food but we can get a decent buff to our character which feels rewarding.

 

Eating simply to stave off death confers no incentives and simply becomes a meaningless chore, although it works well in survival games where the goal is simply to survive as long as food remains difficult to procure in which the hunt for food pays off with the reward, but that's a much different topic although comparable to loot drops in a game like PoE.

[WOLFGEIST]

As for dancing and puking - those are assets created by animators. Do you really think the game designers or programmers are spending time creating animations? Or that animators should instead be designing game mechanics?

[Skaddix]

I dont mind Rest Boosting. Since it was passive and just kinda there...i always ended hoarding food.

[Barleypaper]

"It just feels like such a game-y sort of thing."

 

There's a really good reason for that - PoE is actually a game!

 

"Food should exist only so people have energy and don't die of starvation."

 

Games aren't intended to mimic real life. IRL we have a very strong incentive to eat, our biology rewards us greatly for it. It feels good, gives us energy, keeps us alive. It's enjoyable. We can't confer those inventives directly into the game, it's always going to be clicking a button to eat and there's no biological feedback mechanic to reward us.

 

So, within games we have to sort of amalgamate concepts and give them a way to work within there scope of a game. We can't taste or enjoy the food but we can get a decent buff to our character which feels rewarding.

 

Eating simply to stave off death confers no incentives and simply becomes a meaningless chore, although it works well in survival games where the goal is simply to survive as long as food remains difficult to procure in which the hunt for food pays off with the reward, but that's a much different topic although comparable to loot drops in a game like PoE.

What you're saying is not wrong but there is a middle-ground between a full simulacrum of a fantasy world and an arcade hack'n'slash where you get power-ups from gobbling up cherries.

 

While many of the mechanics in PoE may be unfamiliar to us and may seem strange on the surface, there really are multiple good reasons for the way nearly every mechanic works.

 

To get a better idea behind the thought process behind the design of POE you should watch Josh's presentation on attributes here:

 

Every mechanic design is a fine balancing act and is but one part of an ecosystem. One function can easily affect many others.

 

I believe the mechanics and design of POE are actually brilliant if not hard to appreciate at first.

 

If pre-buffing were enabled, fights would become too easy. If they buffed enemies to compensate then pre-buffing would become a tiring chore which personally does not sound fun to me.

 

As for buffs being suppressed, this prevents people from abusing mechanics. In BG2 for example, my Korgan had so many immunities and spell defense stacked that by the time I hit the Underdark I could basically auto win every fight.

 

In POE I have to manage my ecosystem of equipment and can't just blindly dump all of the good stuff into one person.

 

Camping is designed so that we can't just rest after every fight, we again must consider when and what abilities to use, otherwise we'd just use all of our bar abilities in every fight which takes all of the thought out of resource management.

Josh makes a lot of good points about game design but I believe there's more to designing a good CRPG than just "getting the numbers right".

 

Case in point: Baldur's Gate 2 (archaic attribute system, hideous class inbalance, etc)

Edited November 5, 2017 by Barleypaper

[Wormerine]

While many of the mechanics in PoE may be unfamiliar to us and may seem strange on the surface, there really are multiple good reasons for the way nearly every mechanic works.

To get a better idea behind the thought process behind the design of POE you should watch Josh's presentation on attributes here: https://youtu.be/fvyrEhAMUPo

Every mechanic design is a fine balancing act and is but one part of an ecosystem. One function can easily affect many others.

I believe the mechanics and design of POE are actually brilliant if not hard to appreciate at first.

There is a virtue in figuring out what doesn’t work though. Overall, I do like changes Obsidian made to traditional D&D system. Intent is brilliant, execution is fairly good. However, it is not flawless. Was prebuffing a good thing? I don’t believe it was. Is rest mechanic a good thing? In a context of a game where you can reload or leave a dungeon whenever you want, no, it doesn’t really make much sense. Prebuffing came from consistency of mechanics, where you could use any skills you wanted, whenever you wanted. Knowing your enemy and preparing before battle has its appeal. Rest provides soft resource management.

 

Should prebuffing be a thing? I would say no. But I would like to see more consistency in the game, spells&skills having wider application beyond “kill stuff”. Resting could be much more interesting.

 

The tricky thing is to identify what we really miss about certain aspects of the game. Do we really miss EXACTLY those mechanics or some aspect of them that is missing when you remove them.

[rjshae]

Josh makes a lot of good points about game design but I believe there's more to designing a good CRPG than just "getting the numbers right".

 

Obviously, and I suspect Josh would likely agree with you. But role-playing games are refereed based on numerical data, so getting them right is important, if not vital, for producing a "good" system.

[Lephys]

The question is not about whether or not getting numbers right is the important thing. It's what "getting them right" means. Or, rather, setting the correct goal for the numbers. Obviously if the numbers are wrong, things suck. But if the goal for them is wrong, they also suck. To use attribute as an example, if there was just 1 attribute, and it was "Awesomeness," it wouldn't matter how well you tweaked the numbers and effects of that attribute, because no one wants to play a game in which characters are measured wholly by ONE number value that covers all possible effects. On the other hand, you could have a fantastic attribute system, but have a possible value range of 1-2. That would also be dumb. OR, you could have ranges from 1-1000. This would just be an unnecessary amount of math busywork for people to figure out how many points to put into what. Etc. Or you can have simple number imbalances, wherein the value of one attribute is incredibly useful across the board for all classes, while the value of another is measurably less useful (very commonly, one affects combat, and 90% of the game is combat, and another only affects non-combat things, really, which are a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller portion of the game).

 

They made everything useful to everyone, but so forcibly so that I'm not sure what the numbers are doing now are really the things that people want in an RPG. In other words, an AI might look at them and say everything's perfect, because the numbers check out. Put simply, you can change things about your character now, no matter who you are, but at the cost of the interestingness of the attribute effects. Might is essentially "Damage, and also you can pass uber simple strength checks." It almost skips the adjustment to your character, and just directly adjusts game mechanic values. Part of the fun of attributes (even when they're not perfect) is that, if you're super Constitution-y, you can withstand the poison from the dart trap, whereas if you're Dexterous/Agile, you can simply dodge the darts, etc. One thing makes you better with certain weapons in some respect, while another thing makes you better with others. Etc. When stuff stops caring about all the little nuances and character differences, and just says "whoever you are, you just output X% more damage), it starts becoming very difficult for anyone to get into roleplaying that character factor. Awww yeah! My character does X% more damage! Throwing a grenade? X% more damage! Suplexing someone onto the ground? X% more damage! Forming your soul's energy into a lightning bolt? X% more damage!

 

It's not that it doesn't work. It's that it's not the same thing. They didn't fix the problems with traditional attribute systems. They just ignored a bunch of them altogether and quarantined those cool mechanical factors and effects. Like... "People were sad, so we eliminated emotions. PROBLEM SOLVED!"

[Mechalibur]

It's not that it doesn't work. It's that it's not the same thing. They didn't fix the problems with traditional attribute systems. They just ignored a bunch of them altogether and quarantined those cool mechanical factors and effects. Like... "People were sad, so we eliminated emotions. PROBLEM SOLVED!"

 

Well, I don't think there's really a solution that makes everyone happy. PoE solved the biggest issue I personally had with the attribute systems of most games: a large number of stats that are useless for most builds. For example, let's say a system only has Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. Strength increases damage with melee weapons, dexterity increases damage with ranged weapons, and intelligence increases damage with magic. Some people would have no problem with a system like that; it's simple, and straight to the point. I don't like systems like that because as a wizard, I could safely ignore 2 stats altogether which really limits build options. It also makes hybrid builds less powerful since you'd have to split your points across strength and intelligence if you wanted to use weapons and spells.

 

On the other hand, we have the PoE system where stats are less well-defined, but makes an effort for each stat to be at least some degree of useful for each kind of character. For some people the system is great, for others it's bland and uninspiring. I think in the end it really just depends what each individual is looking for in a system... you can like it or dislike it without the PoE stat system being poorly designed.

 

I guess with all this rambling, I'm just trying to say I understand why PoE's stats are built the way they are (and I think it's for the best), but also I understand why some people don't like it.

[Guest 4ward]

 

i could live with only those 3 you mentioned like that:

STR – melee weapon damage, load capability (e.g. for armour and inventory, weapons)

DEX – amount of weapon proficiency pts + amount of skill points/skills

INT - amount of (different+high level) abilities

one could add WIS to use crossclass abilities/skills.

i wouldn‘t need anything else. Abilities designed by the devs are fine with me, i don‘t need them be influenced by attributes.

The thing that most cuts into freedom for me though is that there‘s attacks of opportunity since the infinity engine was originally developped for Bioware‘s planned realtime strategy game Battlefield infinity and free movement of your guys was a key element of the IE games. It went hand in hand with resting and resource management of your abilities. Stopping was perfectly doable in BG2, just try going by Mencar and Smaeluv with your unprotected mage, they hit, your mage stops moving, they hit again and so forth untill your mage is dead. No Aoo-system required. Glad Obsidian moved from it being an automatic system.

[Lephys]

 Well, I don't think there's really a solution that makes everyone happy. PoE solved the biggest issue I personally had with the attribute systems of most games: a large number of stats that are useless for most builds. For example, let's say a system only has Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. Strength increases damage with melee weapons, dexterity increases damage with ranged weapons, and intelligence increases damage with magic. Some people would have no problem with a system like that; it's simple, and straight to the point. I don't like systems like that because as a wizard, I could safely ignore 2 stats altogether which really limits build options. It also makes hybrid builds less powerful since you'd have to split your points across strength and intelligence if you wanted to use weapons and spells.

 

This is precisely correct. That's why, when it comes down to it, you can't design a system for the purpose of pleasing people. Obviously the game's overall design is to please people. "I think people will like an active-with-pause RPG with a bunch of RPG depth." That's not more objectively correct to design than, say, a puzzler involving aliens, or a platform brawler. But it's what you want to make, and what you think a reasonable enough number of people will enjoy and purchase, such that it justifies the development expenses and lets your company make a profit and continue to make games that they want to make.

 

Once you get past that? Objectivity is the way to go. Do you want to represent intricate character aspects and provide a spectrum of character depth, even within class types? Or do you just want all Wizards to pick Intelligence because it gives them their damage, and each class just gets their 1 or 2 stats that are valuable while the others are not? Do you want the attributes to be well-defined, or don't you? You choose, and then you do it. That's your goal, and everything is measured against that goal. Someone's ALWAYS going to dislike it. The only problem arises if NO ONE likes it. Which, A) almost never happens, and B) is pretty difficult to measure even if it DOES happen.

 

Pillars solved the "make sure all stats do something useful for all classes," but not at the cost of "make sure the stats actually do interesting stuff in terms of RPG character creation/customization." So, I'd say they had 2 goals, and they only succeeded at one of them. Or, if they didn't have the other goal, then they should have, based on the design of the rest of the game. It's just silly to have this in-depth world, and introduce tabletop-style scripted interactions into your RPG, then have stats essentially be "damage" and "interrupt" and "AOE size."

 

So I'm not telling people to like what I like. I'm telling people to choose what is the most effective, and not settle for less just because it's hard to please people. That being said, as I've said before... I fully understand why PoE did what they did. Obsidian had a smaller budget, and a time crunch. Heck, it was one of the first largely successful games on Kickstarter. So, they did what they had to. I don't have a problem with their not having the time to keep hashing out systems until they were all "perfect." What irks me is to hear people constantly make excuses for why it's somehow a waste of time or just-plain dumb to try and improve the stat system. I know you're not saying it, but there are so many conflicting statements out there. "You can't please everyone, but this system is okay because I like it just fine." Or "All systems will have problems, so just stick with this one even though many resolutions to its problems have been proposed and not yet countered." It's just weird, how hard people will try to make sure other people don't try to collaboratively improve something.

 

We can all sit around on this forum telling our favorite colors, then arguing over which colors are better because they're such our favorite, OR we can discuss the objective effects of various options in system design, and, worst-case scenario, all develop a better understanding of the topic at hand, even if there end up being reasons why the system that's ultimately implemented into the game can't get or doesn't get changed.

 

Once again, this is not calling you out, because you didn't do this really, but roughly 70% of the responses in ANY thread on this forum (related to mechanics/system design) are simply vents of frustration that don't even touch on what the other person said. "I dunno, if you did Strength this way, it could work really well, instead of this Might that we have." "OH, SO YOU WANT TO JUST GO BACK TO DND STATS?! HERE'S ALL THE PROBLEMS WITH DND STATS THAT YOU DIDN'T SAY YOU WANTED, AND YOU EVEN LAID OUT AN EXACT DESIGN FOR STRENGTH THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM DND, BUT I'LL JUST INADVERTENTLY STRAWMAN YOU BECAUSE I'M TOO LAZY TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE DISCUSSION AND PROCESS IT, BUT I STILL WANT TO EXPRESS MY OPINION ARBITRARILY!"

 

Erg... I just wish people would be more objective. Everyone's got opinions, and that's fine. Most people have good points, too, but often they don't even make them. It's like pulling teeth to actually dig the useful bit of debate out of them because they just want to throw out their pokeball and have their Opinion-mon beat what they believe to be your Opinion-mon.

[rjshae]

Well, I don't think there's really a solution that makes everyone happy. PoE solved the biggest issue I personally had with the attribute systems of most games: a large number of stats that are useless for most builds. For example, let's say a system only has Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. Strength increases damage with melee weapons, dexterity increases damage with ranged weapons, and intelligence increases damage with magic. Some people would have no problem with a system like that; it's simple, and straight to the point. I don't like systems like that because as a wizard, I could safely ignore 2 stats altogether which really limits build options. It also makes hybrid builds less powerful since you'd have to split your points across strength and intelligence if you wanted to use weapons and spells.

 

On the other hand, we have the PoE system where stats are less well-defined, but makes an effort for each stat to be at least some degree of useful for each kind of character. For some people the system is great, for others it's bland and uninspiring. I think in the end it really just depends what each individual is looking for in a system... you can like it or dislike it without the PoE stat system being poorly designed.

 

I guess with all this rambling, I'm just trying to say I understand why PoE's stats are built the way they are (and I think it's for the best), but also I understand why some people don't like it.

 

HERO/Champions had an excellent solution to the problem: give different costs for the different attributes based upon their relative value to the player. It looks like Obsidian chose the alternative route of balancing the attribute benefits instead. I don't it's necessarily a bad approach; it just makes the interpretation of the attributes more of a challenge. They act more like abstract tunables than physical characteristics. I can live with it because the game isn't trying to be a universal character construction set, but is fitting the attributes into a specific setting that operates by its own rules.