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Early Subclass Concepts

subclasses

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#1
LuccA

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So, in the last update (https://forums.obsid...-part-ii/page-1) a list of early concepts for the subclasses has been shared.

 

I would like to open this topic to discuss what you guys think of them for now, in terms of differences, balance and creativity.

 

My quick opinion:

 

Honestly, I kind of understand now why they used Corpse Eater and Ghost Heart as examples in previous updates. They are the most exciting for me, simply because they are the most different.

 

It's like Josh said in the update:"Subclasses all have trade-offs, though some subclasses change the core playstyle of the class more than others"

 

The obvious problem that can come from this is that the subclasses that change more the playstyle (I believe Corpse Eater will even have different animation for when he's eating corpses I guess?) will end up more interesting than others that are a mere tweak in the main classe's skills/resources. 



#2
Wormerine

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I likem a lot. I didn't expect them to be game changers, but some of them seem quite interesting. For most part they seem to ephesize certain aspect of a class and that is what I am looking for. 


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#3
MaxQuest

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I was thinking about starting such a thread, and there it already is :)

After taking a look at the presented subclasses I find majority of them quite interesting, and will briefly note down the first impression on each of them.
Since we don't know the numbers behind them, plus they are subjected to changes, this preemptive evaluation is going to be approximate at best. But here we go anyway:

BARBARIAN:
1. Corpse Eater - Targets unconscious enemies to devour their flesh and gain power. Powers cost more to use.
- we don't know what "power" exactly, but I suppose it's the power to use abilities (as in the previous system). And since there are no "power_sources" in the new system, it will likely allow barbarian to recuperate resources required for usage of abilities of: paladin, rogues and fighters as well.
- in Deadfire health and endurance have been mixed into a single pool; meaning that healing will become much more important.
- a corpse-eater could easily prolong the fight for a long time if he had access to Lay on Hands or Unbending. Especially if corpse-eating would restore not only rage, but also discipline/zeal.

2. Berserker - Has a more powerful Frenzy, but attacks can damage friends as well as foes while Frenzied.
- it could be an interesting idea to have a frontline of 2-3 such berserkers. It's ok if they end up carnage-hitting each-other, provided that they multi-class into a tankish fighter or monk. Also giving them weapons with Penetration just slightly lower than their AR should help vs them killing themselves.

3. Mage Slayer - Gains spell resistance and can disrupt enemy spells, but cannot use potions or scrolls and beneficial spells have shorter durations.
- interesting, will the shorter duration of beneficial spells lead to higher HPS with healing over time abilities?
- how good or bad this subclass gonna be, completely depends on numbers and on the enemies we will face.

 
CHANTER:
1. Beckoner - Summoning invocations are cheaper and summon more creatures, but the creatures are weaker.
- thinking of body blocking
- weakness to enemies with AoE
- good vs enemies that would waste their charms/dominates/directed stuns on these summoned creatures
- synergy with priest's spark

2. Skald - Offensive invocations are cheaper and melee crits grant phrases, but all other invocations are more expensive.
- think of such skald/barbarian focused on HoF and Seven Nights
- think of such skald/mage-slayer played like interrupt barbarian (with min MIG / max PER,DEX) who is also able to spam: Killers Froze Stiff and The Lover Cried
- another variant would be to mix this skald with a control-freak variant of wizard with DAoM and Merciless Gaze; together they would make a great cc-offtank. 

3. Troubadour - Phrase linger is 50% longer, Brisk Recitation as a modal that increases the rate of phrase elapses, but shortens linger. All invocations are more expensive.
- a great chanter subclass, focused on either dealing damage via DoT chants, or on keeping as many simultaneous buffs as possible.
- has a built-in synergy with any class that is able to buff own MIG and especially INT. Thinking of Minor Avatar. Not to mention that priest of Eothas gets access to storm spells, and those provide a great setup for chants like Dragon Trashed, because they do provide a solid reflex malus, plus stun the enemies, allowing to kill them overtime remaining almost unscratched.

 
CIPHER:
1. Ascendant - Powers and Soul Whip are more effective when used at Max Focus, but Focus drains quickly if left at Max for long.
- am a bit dissapointed that it doesn't just increase your might or damage coefficient, because it could be great to arrive to max focus, and then start casting spells from your second class
- other than that it's a great subclass, and I actually fail to see how it's penalty is a penalty at all, because cipher never wanted to idle at max focus anyway, because in PoE1 Soul Whip turns off once you achieve max focus, as simple as that; and thus I wonder what "Soul Whip is more effective when used at Max Focus" means exactly.
- another thing is: "focus drains quickly if left at max" - but than it quickly becomes below max - and thus immediately stops draining, no?

2. Beguiler - Illusion powers are more powerful, but Soul Whip suffers when used against targets that are not vulnerable to Sneak Attack.
- we were not yet presented with a list of "illusion powers". Looking at PoE1 it will probably include "Phantom Foes", "Secret Horrors" and "Fractured Volition". If so - this subclass will end up strictly worse than pure cipher. On the other hand if Illusion powers also include charm and dominate stuff - now we talking.

3. Soul Blade - Offensive cipher that can dump Focus into a Soul Annihilation melee attack for extra Raw damage.  Shred powers have reduced Focus cost.  Lower Max Focus.
- the question is: will this extra raw damage count towards focus generation?
- and yeah, here again, everything depends on what are the exact numbers; we have no other way to estimate how good or bad this subclass is.

 
DRUID:
1. Fury - Shift into storm blights and gain bonuses with elemental spells.  Cannot cast Restoration spells.
- restoration spells are going to be much more important in Deadfire than in PoE1, so these bonuses with elem. spell better be good.
- we don't know if shifting in a storm blight comes with any immunities; nor if there are bosses that deal related damage types.
- we don't know if druid can cast spells while shifted in these blights; nor what are the blight stats.

2. Lifegiver - Rejuvenation spells are cast with increased Power Level but cannot cast Summon spells.
- that's pretty awesome; solo aside, druid's summoning spells never seemed useful enough on the PotD difficulty, so we just get a bonus to healing department.

3. Shifter - Druid can shift to any animal form, once each, per combat and heals damage each time they shift back.  Cannot cast spells while shifted.
- this means that we won't be able to shift for defensive purpose; and the only idea is to deal damage in melee.
- we will need a list of stuff that affects the shifted form. And most important: will bonuses to unarmed damage affect it's dps.
- think of Ascendant cipher or Soul Blade, who shifts -> deals lots of damage -> generates a lot of focus and unloads his powers once the shift ends -> summons Firebrand -> ...

 
FIGHTER:
1. Black Jacket - Bonus weapon proficiency, reduced Recovery when switching weapon, but lacks Constant Recovery.
- a great subclass for anyone who is focused on burst and alpha-strikes.
- it's interesting to test it with dual-pistols (or other firearms if possible; especially arquebuses and blunderbusses)
- it's also interesting to check it's synergy with Soul Blade and Shattered Pillar when pistols are in dual-club mode

2. Devoted - May only be proficient in a single weapon.  Higher Penetration and crit damage with that weapon. Suffers Accuracy penalty when using other weapons.
- there are [weapons with high-damage, low-penetration] and there are [weapons with low-damage, high-penetration]; taking this subclass might provide the possibility to have it all. 
- has potential to either be boring if numbers are low, or broken otherwise; needs a careful fine-tuning.

3. Unbroken - Bonuses to Engagement and Disengagement Attacks, but lower Stride.
- these bonuses mean little. On other hand if this subclass would influence enemy targeting preferences... it would be another story.
- also, what's Stride? (it's capitalized, so I guess it's not just movement speed?)


 
MONK
1. Helwalker - Begin all combats with Wounds, gain Might for every Wound. Wounds require more damage to acquire.
- getting up to 10 extra Might is great; especially for DoTers and characters that have high base damage, but not so high damage coeficients.
- in update #40 video video we see that this monk starts with just 1 Wound. That's kinda low.
- in the same video, this monk is shown to take 5% extra damage per wound. So the extra Might comes at a kinda great cost.
2. Nalpazca - Drug effects last longer and Wound cap is increased while under the effects of drugs. Penalties while not under the effect of drugs.
- the most interesting thing about this subclass, is that it is able to get Wounds over time, simply by being under effect of drugs. This might be useful for some squishy ranged character - who actually doesn't want to get hit a lot.
- unfortunately we don't know yet how useful Deadfire drugs are going to be. Their PoE1 v3.0+ analogs were not that tasty.
3. Shattered Pillar - Gain Wounds by inflicting damage with melee weapons (fists or otherwise). Lower Max Wound cap, does not gain Wounds from receiving damage.
- that's a superb idea, and has huge dps potential with dumping all wounds into torment's reach spam.
- we'll have yet to see is abilities do count towards Wounds gain, or only auto-attacks are take into account
- there is a potential synergy with carnage, as well as high dps of ascendant/soul blade/assassin/streetfighter/devout


... to be continued :)

Edited by MaxQuest, 21 September 2017 - 08:27 AM.

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#4
Messier-31

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It seems Ganrich have fallen of the track: https://forums.obsid...arn-about-them/


Edited by Messier-31, 21 September 2017 - 04:07 AM.


#5
draego

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I may be a little boring but this sub class will prob be my first build no multi classing. I like ranger melee builds

 

Stalker - Stalker and companion gain bonuses to Deflection and Armor Rating when close to each other, suffer Bonded Grief when too far apart.

 

One issue i can see is that the bonuses you get dont apply in a far enough radius so you can apply flank to enemy. if its to hard to flank and get bonuses there is little point in my opinion (well if you are using ranger a straight tank i suppose) but for a flanking/skirmishing build flanking is needed and would just stick with base class.

 

3. Troubadour - Phrase linger is 50% longer, Brisk Recitation as a modal that increases the rate of phrase elapses, but shortens linger. All invocations are more expensive.

- a great chanter subclass, focused on either dealing damage via DoT chants, or on keeping as many simultaneous buffs as possible.
- has a built-in synergy with any class that is able to buff own MIG and especially INT. Thinking of Minor Avatar. Not to mention that priest of Eothas gets access to storm spells, and those provide a great setup for chants like Dragon Trashed, because they do provide a solid reflex malus, plus stun the enemies, allowing to kill them overtime remaining almost unscratched.

 

This class will have interesting multi class builds for me. The passive ability from chanter combined with a very active class would seem like a min max dream (which i don't like doing). I also hate passive chanters but they are good. I guess the only saving grace could be that the high level chants wont be allowed for this multiclasses and maybe dragon thrashed is in that 8-9 power range. :) That would be funny prob more like you get it at lower level and it doesnt scale as high as single class build. The other issue for this class would be is if any active ability from other classes disrupts chants. That could be a consideration. 

 

I guess the other class thats a maybe right now.

 

Mage Slayer - Gains spell resistance and can disrupt enemy spells, but cannot use potions or scrolls and beneficial spells have shorter duration.

 

I am playing a barb primary tank right now and love it. so i a may want to play that again and i would be curious if the disrupt works with carnage. Maybe a Corpse Eater would be better for tank so it can still take advantage of front line fighting but not have to worry about flanking to get to casters.


Edited by draego, 21 September 2017 - 06:22 AM.


#6
Karkarov

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It seems Ganrich have fallen of the track: https://forums.obsid...arn-about-them/

Pretty sure he lost pace with updates a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time ago.



#7
Boeroer

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Stalker is basically my Riptide & The Pit Fright build in PoE. :)


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#8
JerekKruger

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Something I noticed: in the text of the update we are told that Nalpazca Monks have "increased Wound cap while under the effects of drugs", but in the actual video we're told that they "generate Wounds while receiving benefits from drugs". The latter sounds like a passive accumulation of Wounds whilst your Monk is drugged up which is, potentially, really good. Either way, the Nalpazca sounds a lot more interesting than it originally did, although it still doesn't tempt me as much as the other two Monk subclasses.

 

EDIT: just noticed Max spotted this too. My bad  :blush:


Edited by JerekKruger, 22 September 2017 - 04:39 AM.

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#9
JerekKruger

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- other than that it's a great subclass, and I actually fail to see how it's penalty is a penalty at all, because cipher never wanted to idle at max focus anyway, because in PoE1 Soul Whip turns off once you achieve max focus, as simple as that; and thus I wonder what "Soul Whip is more effective when used at Max Focus" means exactly.

 

My guess: Soulwhip will no longer deactivate once you reach max focus (otherwise, as you say, the last part makes no sense).

 

another thing is: "focus drains quickly if left at max" - but than it quickly becomes below max - and thus immediately stops draining, no?

 

If I were designing this, I'd make it so that if you are at max focus for more than Xs, you receive a debuff which drains your focus rapidly for Ys.


Edited by JerekKruger, 22 September 2017 - 04:39 AM.

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#10
MaxQuest

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My guess: Soulwhip will no longer deactivate once you reach max focus (otherwise, as you say, the last part makes no sense).

This is likely the right guess.

Although I am curious how big that bonus to Soul Whip will be... because in order to avoid the drain, cipher would want to cast powers asap, and not to continue auto-attacking.
 

If I were designing this, I'd make it so that if you are at max focus for more than Xs, you receive a debuff which drains your focus rapidly for Ys.

With a tooltip that writes something like: "focus drains for 15 focus per second for 3 seconds if left at max for 5 seconds"?

Basically ascendant makes you want to achieve max focus as fast as possible, in order to benefit from the bonus to powers / soul whip, but at the risk of losing focus due to drain of unexpected overflow (especially if you use hard-hitting weapons; and focus is gained in big chunks).

This risk is getting higher, along with dps/maxfocus proportion.
Looks like a multi-classed ascendant will have higher risk and also higher benefit from this subclass, than a single-class ascendant; because he will likely have lower maxfocus. Not to mention that if the pool is big, cipher has no time to wait till it's getting full especially if he needs to cast a crucial power right now; or if the fight will end soon enough.

Edited by MaxQuest, 22 September 2017 - 07:53 AM.


#11
JerekKruger

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I'm finding the Priest of Eothas a little odd. I'm guessing Elemental Spells include things like Sunbeam, Burst of Summer Flame and Sunlance, all of which fit well with Eothas as the god of light and dawn, but it presumably also includes spells like Returning and Relentless Storm, which seems more Ondratic than Eothasian. What bothers me more though is that they lack access to Protection Spells. Given Eothas is often the god who looks out for the little guy, and generally speaking seems to be a benevolent god, it seems odd that he wouldn't provide his Priests with Protection Spells, and it seems even stranger given that the Symbol of Eothas from PoE was very protection orientated (+20 to all Defences to those in the AoE).

 

The other Priests fit well I think: Magran has the most obviously fitting pros and cons; I'd agree that Decay would be more fitting for Rymrgand but it works reasonably well with Berath, and Berath's relatively distant nature fits with a lack of Condemnation; Skaen makes a lot of sense (you don't get inspired by a secretly plotting slave); and Illusion for Wael certainly fits, though it's hard to know whether lacking Punishment does.


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#12
MaxQuest

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I'm finding the Priest of Eothas a little odd. I'm guessing Elemental Spells include things like Sunbeam, Burst of Summer Flame and Sunlance, all of which fit well with Eothas as the god of light and dawn, but it presumably also includes spells like Returning and Relentless Storm, which seems more Ondratic than Eothasian. What bothers me more though is that they lack access to Protection Spells. Given Eothas is often the god who looks out for the little guy, and generally speaking seems to be a benevolent god, it seems odd that he wouldn't provide his Priests with Protection Spells, and it seems even stranger given that the Symbol of Eothas from PoE was very protection orientated (+20 to all Defences to those in the AoE).

Huh, haven't even looked at it from RP point of view. But I do completely agree here.

 
My first thoughts when looking at priest subclasses where:
- Berath: so I can take Rot Skulls, Minor Avatar and also multi-class into wizard for Blast + Penetrating Blast? Yes please.
- Eothas: wohoho, superb. Now I can mix the points forte of druid, priest and chanter. As I already wrote in another thread: think of opening up with Painful Interdiction to lower fortitude for R.Storms stuns and will for Shinning Beacon. And when the Storms hit, stunned evemies get a high reflex malus vs Dragon Trashed. And now add the Minor Avatar as a cherry on top.
- Magran: you must be kidding me. As a priest I do not want: Fan of Flames, Ray of Fire, Fireball nor Delayed Fireball. Priest already has better fire damage potential. Firebrand + Firebug on the other hand... that could be useful.
- Skaen: "can learn rogue offensive abilities as priest spells" - what does this mean exactly? Are they subjected to per-rank spell-usage limit? Why not just "can learn rogue offensive abilities"? Also does this only include active stuff? If I can't get deathblows, then what's the incentive?
- Wael: do Illusion spells, include only stuff with Confuse and Blind? Or also stuff that inflicts Paralyze, Stun, Prone, Petrify, Unconscious? In any case this subclass could make into a nice support-debilitator. Although will have to check if it will not get superseeded by a melee skald-illusionist or ranged trickster-beguiler.

Edited by MaxQuest, 23 September 2017 - 02:41 AM.


#13
Boeroer

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- Magran: you must be kidding me. As a priest I do not want: Fan of Flames, Ray of Fire, Fireball nor Delayed Fireball. Priest already has better fire damage potential. Firebrand + Firebug on the other hand... that could be useful.


Actually I played Durance like this (and do it again atm for my last playthrough). Three arquebuses and then summon Firebrand. It's a lot of fun with Dire Blessing and Aggrandizing Radiance + Minor Avatar. Since I seldomly use restoration spells with a priest anyway that's fine.

Getting access to wizard's fire spells is not bad I think. That way you can have one good fire spell in every level. Priests usually get the good fire spells later while wizards can start with them. Why not combine those advantages and have a priest who can cast useful fire spells in every level?

#14
MaxQuest

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Getting access to wizard's fire spells is indeed not bad. But so far I see it as "not bad but not good enough". For example I would easily take druid storm spells over wizard fire ones as I find them much more useful; plus PoE1 was manageable without protection spells so I can live without them.
Additionally being a priest of Magran does not grant a bonus to power level with fire spells, like in the case of wizard's subclasses.
But yes, having fire spells of/on every rank is an argument.

#15
JerekKruger

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Thinking about it more, I suspect that "Can learn Elemental spells from the druid list" (and the equivalent for other Priests) will actually be "Can learn some Elemental spells from the druid list". Purely speculation of course, but I'd guess that the Priest of Eothas will only get the Sun and Light type spells from the Druid's list, not things like Relentless Storm.


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#16
morhilane

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Thinking about it more, I suspect that "Can learn Elemental spells from the druid list" (and the equivalent for other Priests) will actually be "Can learn some Elemental spells from the druid list". Purely speculation of course, but I'd guess that the Priest of Eothas will only get the Sun and Light type spells from the Druid's list, not things like Relentless Storm.

 

If that was the case, it would have said the same thing as for Magran. The "sun" spells do burn damage (Druid have no light based spells). We can see POE2 spell list in the multiclass video, it use the same icons as in POE1 with some new additions in the later levels.

 

It's probably all elemental spells because there is a lot less "sun" themed spells in the Druid list than there is fire based spells in the Wizard list.



#17
Climhazzard

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Hopefully the developers are looking in here so they get an idea of what needs nerfed before the game is released, lol.

 

Anyways the monk will always be my favorite class, but I'd have nothing against multi-classing one if I could think up some good combinations, so on that note...

 

Barbarian any + Shattered Pillar = Will carnage generate wounds?  

 

Cipher (probably soul blade) + Standard monk = Generate resource from attacking or being attacked.  If cipher spell list isn't revamped I'm not sure I would like it before getting amplified wave.  Ectopsychic echo might be fun on a class that can move around the battlefield at will though.  

 

Shifter + any monk = Will monk abilities be usable in animal form?  Will unarmed damage bonuses effect animal form?

 

Devoted + any monk = Multi class monks will probably do less unarmed damage than pure monks, but this combination would be weapon focused, and now you have constant recovery on a monk.  I'm praying that one handed weapon spec will become worth it in PoE 2 specifically for this combination.  If it looks good it'll be my first playthrough.  2 handed with a staff might be good too if there are any good ones.

 

I'll probably avoid any faith based monk multi classing, even if there are strong possibilities.  I'm sure Rogue, Wizard, Chanter, and maybe stalker will all make decent combinations, but multi classes will probably suffer without decent synergies so I'm not ready to speculate on them.


Edited by Climhazzard, 24 September 2017 - 10:55 AM.


#18
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Will unarmed damage bonuses effect animal form?


Why would they do that when they removed such synergies from PoE on purpose (Novice's Suffering not working when shifted)?

Edited by Boeroer, 24 September 2017 - 11:59 AM.


#19
Climhazzard

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Will unarmed damage bonuses effect animal form?


Why would they do that when they removed such synergies from PoE on purpose (Novice's Suffering not working when shifted)?

 

 

 

I guess barbarian with carnage would be more fun anyways if that worked...   though I suppose neither one would work, in which case shifter might not be the best choice for multi classing.







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