Politics - Jason X

[Guard Dog]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4595286/las-vegas-shooting-moment-defiant-concert-goer-gives-mandalay-bay-gun-maniac-the-finger-as-bullets-rain-down-around-him/

[algroth]

From whbat they eyewitnesses are describing the shooter was using an automatic weapon. Based on the nummber or rounds fired without stoping and the rate of fire it sounds like a drum fed or belt fed weapon.

 

Those are illegal in all 50 states in case you were wondering.

 

Not in Nevada.

[Ethics Gradient]

Those are illegal in all 50 states in case you were wondering. 

 

 

Not entirely true.  NFA weapons registered prior to 1986 are still allowed to be owned by civilians on a state-by-state basis.  Since supply is limited and it is difficult to secure repair parts, it wouldn't be unusual for a legal full-auto to cost something north of $10k-20k.

 

But yeah, civilian ownership of post-1986 automatic weapons without a very specific class of dealer's license are entirely prohibited, as is attempting to convert or build your own.

[Gfted1]

Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay Casino Kills 50.

 

 

 

Video of the shooting captured nine seconds of rapid-fire, continuous bursts, followed by 37 seconds of silence from the weapon amid panicked screaming. The barrage of gunfire then erupted again in at least two more rounds, both shorter than the first.

 

Lets do a little napkin math:

 

1) We don't know the length of the second two bursts but lets assume the worst case scenario, 9 more second each, for a total of 27 seconds total firing time.

2) 456 casualties / 27 seconds = 16.89 casualty per second! I wonder how many of the 406 were shot and how many are injured from running away.

[Guard Dog]

 

Those are illegal in all 50 states in case you were wondering. 

 

 

Not entirely true.  NFA weapons registered prior to 1986 are still allowed to be owned by civilians on a state-by-state basis.  Since supply is limited and it is difficult to secure repair parts, it wouldn't be unusual for a legal full-auto to cost something north of $10k-20k.

 

But yeah, civilian ownership of post-1986 automatic weapons without a very specific class of dealer's license are entirely prohibited, as is attempting to convert or build your own.

 

 

None of those are chambered in .223 or 5.56mm. And none but the Thompson .45 is drum fed. And even the Thompson has a 50 round drum or 30 round magazines. This **** shot well over 200 without a stop, Plus the cyclic rate was too high for .30 cal. Even if is was a legal full auto it could only have been a .30 Cal Browning because it's belt fed. But he would have fired a lot more if it were belt fed. Plus he fired from 2 different windows (or there was more than one shooter). The Browning is too big to move easily and needs a tripod to be stable. The M-60 was never available for civilian sale so that is out. 

 

I'm sticking with my first supposition, full auto .223 or 5.56mm. Possibly an M-249. At least that is what it sounded like to me. I've heard a SAW fired many times in my day (and fired it more than a few myself) and that is what it sounded like to me. 

[Hurlshort]

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on? 

[Guard Dog]

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on? 

 

If it IS and illegal weapon that begs the question "how did he get it". So that detail is important. How does anyone protect themselves anywhere these days? In Spain and France terrorists are killing innocent people with vehicles now. 

[injurai]

 

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on? 

 

If it IS and illegal weapon that begs the question "how did he get it". So that detail is important. How does anyone protect themselves anywhere these days? In Spain and France terrorists are killing innocent people with vehicles now. 

 

 

Where arms are hard to come by, acid is also becoming increasingly common, even in "non-terrorist" attacks. Petty gang violence and "armed-robbery" is now commonly carried out with concoctions of cleaning agents in the UK.

[Blarghagh]

Oh sure, it's illegal to buy one or convert one. Show of hands, who here knows people who have enough tech savvy that they could convert readily available crud? I'm sure all of those would be deterred by it being illegal if they snapped. "We've tried everything to stop it! We told them they'd be fined in addition to their other sentencing if we found out they killed 20 people with a MODIFIED gun! Gosh, I don't understand why they didn't listen!"

 

But let's just debate and do nothing, and then next time we'll do that too.

[Ethics Gradient]

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on? 

 

Yeah.  I hate that the first wave of discussion with mass casualties is always about tools used or the accuracy/prowess of the shooter.  I'm not saying we can't discuss two things at once, but it would be nice to have a short breather to get past the trauma and devastation before armchair quarterbacking the incident and political ramifications.

 

None of those are chambered in .223 or 5.56mm. 

Not true.  If you toss "transferrable M16" into google, you'll bring up more listings than you would imagine should be the case...  

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on?

If it IS and illegal weapon that begs the question "how did he get it". So that detail is important. How does anyone protect themselves anywhere these days? In Spain and France terrorists are killing innocent people with vehicles now.

which seems to be less dangerous than guns

 

 

Not really. In 2016 in the US 40218 people were killed in vehicular related incident and 11652 by firearms (counting both criminal and accidents on firearms. Not sure of the vehicle breakdown)

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Regardless of the weapon, this is going to fundamentally change the way we check in to hotels. Other than that I'm pretty much at a loss. Are we going to have snipers set up at all major events from now on?

If it IS and illegal weapon that begs the question "how did he get it". So that detail is important. How does anyone protect themselves anywhere these days? In Spain and France terrorists are killing innocent people with vehicles now.

which seems to be less dangerous than guns

 

 

You are kidding here right?

[Gfted1]

And guns seem less dangerous than stampedes. 

 

As pointed out, almost any semi-automatic weapon can be converted to full automatic in under 10 minutes. An AR-15 modified to full auto can shoot approximately 2 rounds per second. So if we consider the 27 seconds of firing time he should only have been able to get off ~60 rounds. People are reporting "hundreds" of rounds fired so I wonder if he was dual wielding fully automatic weapons or if he had help.

[Hurlshort]

Oddly enough, Vegas has been making a huge push to set up cement barriers to protect pedestrians from vehicles.

[injurai]

Oh sure, it's illegal to buy one or convert one. Show of hands, who here knows people who have enough tech savvy that they could convert readily available crud? I'm sure all of those would be deterred by it being illegal if they snapped. "We've tried everything to stop it! We told them they'd be fined in addition to their other sentencing if we found out they killed 20 people with a MODIFIED gun! Gosh, I don't understand why they didn't listen!"

 

But let's just debate and do nothing, and then next time we'll do that too.

 

When 3D printing was becoming big, the gun community was getting really interested in printing low receivers, with a long term goal of a way to make upper receivers. Part files were being made open source so anyone could start printing their own gun parts.

 

If you had open schematics to 3D print or even CNC route out an automatic ar-15 upper receiver then all you'd need access to is some equipment to do so.

 

You have so many people into this whole world of guns, that a future to be assailant can lead a normal hobbyist life before ever turning the barrel on the innocent.

[Guard Dog]

And guns seem less dangerous than stampedes. 

 

As pointed out, almost any semi-automatic weapon can be converted to full automatic in under 10 minutes. An AR-15 modified to full auto can shoot approximately 2 rounds per second. So if we consider the 27 seconds of firing time he should only have been able to get off ~60 rounds. People are reporting "hundreds" of rounds fired so I wonder if he was dual wielding fully automatic weapons or if he had help.

 

Listen to the audio in the link I posted. That was no 30 round magazine. Even if he did convert and AR you can't make it belt fed. It doe not have the hardware to self feed. AR and AKMs use a spring in the magazine to feed the next round into the rifle. And if you did make an AR full auto you can't control the rate of fire anymore. In other words once you pull the trigger it empties the magazine. But even then the biggest magazine is 30 rounds. The HK-21 & MG-34 can be modified to be belt fed. Both are illegal in the US.

[Guard Dog]

@GD and Chill

 

I do think mass homicides are more easily carried out with guns than cars, yes

 

No argument there. That wasn't what you said though.   

[Chilloutman]

@GD and Chill

 

I do think mass homicides are more easily carried out with guns than cars, yes

 

warning, visual

 

[injurai]

 

And guns seem less dangerous than stampedes. 

 

As pointed out, almost any semi-automatic weapon can be converted to full automatic in under 10 minutes. An AR-15 modified to full auto can shoot approximately 2 rounds per second. So if we consider the 27 seconds of firing time he should only have been able to get off ~60 rounds. People are reporting "hundreds" of rounds fired so I wonder if he was dual wielding fully automatic weapons or if he had help.

 

Listen to the audio in the link I posted. That was no 30 round magazine. Even if he did convert and AR you can't make it belt fed. It doe not have the hardware to self feed. AR and AKMs use a spring in the magazine to feed the next round into the rifle. And if you did make an AR full auto you can't control the rate of fire anymore. In other words once you pull the trigger it empties the magazine. But even then the biggest magazine is 30 rounds. The HK-21 & MG-34 can be modified to be belt fed. Both are illegal in the US.

 

 

Just last week I saw someone convert an ar-15 to eject casings out of the lower receiver and feed in from an p90 50-round box mag. They sell even higher capacity casket fed p90 magazines. I think if someone really wanted to rig something up they could.

[HoonDing]

 

@GD and Chill

 

I do think mass homicides are more easily carried out with guns than cars, yes

 

warning, visual

 

 

its even easier with a plane

[ShadySands]

 

 

And guns seem less dangerous than stampedes. 

 

As pointed out, almost any semi-automatic weapon can be converted to full automatic in under 10 minutes. An AR-15 modified to full auto can shoot approximately 2 rounds per second. So if we consider the 27 seconds of firing time he should only have been able to get off ~60 rounds. People are reporting "hundreds" of rounds fired so I wonder if he was dual wielding fully automatic weapons or if he had help.

 

Listen to the audio in the link I posted. That was no 30 round magazine. Even if he did convert and AR you can't make it belt fed. It doe not have the hardware to self feed. AR and AKMs use a spring in the magazine to feed the next round into the rifle. And if you did make an AR full auto you can't control the rate of fire anymore. In other words once you pull the trigger it empties the magazine. But even then the biggest magazine is 30 rounds. The HK-21 & MG-34 can be modified to be belt fed. Both are illegal in the US.

 

 

Just last week I saw someone convert an ar-15 to eject casings out of the lower receiver and feed in from an p90 50-round box mag. They sell even higher capacity casket fed p90 magazines. I think if someone really wanted to rig something up they could.

I've seen people attach drums to AR-15s (belt fed too) before as well but to me it's not about capacity as I'm not sure the barrel (or gas tube) could take such a high rate of fire as is being suggested

Edited October 2, 2017 by ShadySands

[injurai]

I'd imagine someone could always rig up a simple cooling hopper. The attacker last night apparently had multiple arms stashed in the room too, so It sounds like he may have switched weapons as well.

[Hurlshort]

I think we are getting caught up in the details of the gun, when that seems a bit like a dead end. Whether it was illegal or not, modified, etc. is going to mean very little because you will have one side crying out for gun control and the other (NRA) side shutting down any notion of that sort. It will get us nowhere, and I see it as pointless. Besides, is it really any better if he has to fire slower? The guy was in an elevated position and there was no simple way to get to him. 

 

I'm more interested in what hotels will be changing and how will large concert venues handle security differently. Bag checks? Cameras in the rooms? Metal detectors? 

[ShadySands]

I think that without any additional info it's somewhat natural that we discuss the minutiae, especially if it's in an area that we think we have knowledge

 

I have no idea about those other things

Edited October 2, 2017 by ShadySands

[HoonDing]

 

totally looks like ISIS yup

 

its just Joe the Plumber