Cipher Question

[MaxQuest]

You obviously didn't watch Raven's video with the bog dragons vs Brutal Backlash.

Indeed I didn't. Had no enough trafic while on vacation.

But have checked it now. And yeap, as expected it is totally OP now)

 

At 30 INT, Psychic Backlash can keep enemies (with will-targeting aoes permastunned), even if Backlash just grazes.

As for damage, @26 MIG (as in video), Brutal Backslash deals:

- 23.8 raw damage on graze; or 476 per minute

- 33.8 raw damage on hit; or 676 per minute

- 43.8 raw damage on crit; or 876 per minute

 

Tbh it's too powerful...

P.S. Taking Merchant background over Laborer would give 4 more skill points in the end  

Edited August 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Raven Darkholme]

Yeah I created another cipher now to check how good it is in Act 2 and you can definitely take normal backlash relatively early (level 6 or 8, when solo, prolly earlier with party).

If you take brutal without respeccing is up for debate in solo it seems worth it at level 10.

[Dr <3]

After all this chiper exploits, Now i want to try again a solo run with one...

I think i will start with a boreal dwarf, 16 str, 16 con, 16 int... I am always in doubt between con and dex... Someone have experiece about solo run with chiper?

 

I tried that a couple of time but i was always frustated that i was unable to use eco/ amplified wave/ body attunement so i dropped before ending. But see a dragon permastunned can be worth a new travel

[Raven Darkholme]

After all this chiper exploits, Now i want to try again a solo run with one...

I think i will start with a boreal dwarf, 16 str, 16 con, 16 int... I am always in doubt between con and dex... Someone have experiece about solo run with chiper?

 

I tried that a couple of time but i was always frustated that i was unable to use eco/ amplified wave/ body attunement so i dropped before ending. But see a dragon permastunned can be worth a new travel

I have some experience with solo cipher, most was before WM came out, tho (finished the game) and my first full pt at all, so not only a long time ago but lacking a lot of knowledge.

I then created a console cipher with max gear to beat Magran's Faithful, but that's also more than half a year ago, I recently used that cipher to test the new backlash.

Now I'm playing a regular solo run again and am rushing WM, but I can only tell you about dex once i get durgan refined.

I have 10 base dex but am using a shield, I tried dual wield for some time and you can def beat the game with it ( you don't need more than 10 dex on dual, even without durgan it's almost no recovery with alacrity) but I prefer Aila Braccia it is much better to have more deflection AND reflex, and especially in WM it is really fun to reflect ranged grazes back at Lagus. :D

 

Once I have durgan I can tell how much dex I'll need for no recovery with shield, tho I guess MaxQuest already has the answer for it, I like finding it out for myself.

 

(but I think 10 DEX is ok even with shield, maxing MI seems so crucial)

Edited August 27, 2017 by Raven Darkholme

[Raven Darkholme]

I can not see a difference between 11 base dex buffed up to 20 dex with various bonuses (wearing coloured Coat which is a Brigandine with 10% less penalty than other brigandines have) and 20 base dex buffed to 29.

I attacked with bittercut and had a small shield in the offhand.

Weapon, shield and armor are durganized and I was wearing gauntlets of swift action, also use alacrity at combat start.

There is still a tiny recovery, but it is practically non existant.

 

i don't see why you would go with more base dex than 10 (I went 11 because I had one point left over, lol), looking at MaxQuests attack speed calculator even 40 dex and wearing no armor barely changes the recovery with a shield.

Dual wielding will be faster ofc but here you can reach no recovery with 10 dex and even tho this forum keeps trying I cannot see the benefit of decreasing your weapon attack animation speed, since even with a shield and some recovery the attack speed and focus gain is insane and you could kill most enemies witout ever even using your focus.

 

Also the buffed Silent scream is just an insane ability to spam and because of it I wonder if I should go Apprentices sneak attack instead of Spirit of Decay.

Decay is not only awesome for bittercut, but also for Antipathetic Beam, which is probably the most op level 1 ability in the game (If you feel real mean combine it with Recall Agony).

Recall Agony is also awesome with Disintegration and Soul Ignition.

[Dr <3]

Tkhs for your answers. As far i remember the 0 recovery worked similar between attacks and spells right?

[MaxQuest]

As far i remember the 0 recovery worked similar between attacks and spells right?

As if you would dual-wield, but without TwoWeapon Style talent.

[hansvedic]

Sorry to necro a months-old thread, but I had a question pertaining to the v3 CC frontline cipher.

 

Specifically, what powers would you recommend for the v3 cipher?

[MaxQuest]

^v3 is a frontline cc'er.

 

I would recommend focusing on:

rank 1: Whisper of Treason (!), Tenuous Grasp, Mind Wave

rank 2: Mental Binding (!), Recall Agony, Psychovampiric Shield (~)

rank 3: Puppet Master, Fractured Volition (~), Secret Horrors (~)

rank 4: Silent Scream ®, Body Attunement (~), Going Between (~)

rank 5: Borrowed Instinct, Tactical Meld

rank 6: Amplified Wave (!), Disintegration ®

rank 7: Time Parasite ® (but also carry DAoM potions), Stasis Shell (~)

rank 8: Defensive Mindweb (~), Reaping Knives (~)

 

P.S. I would also recommend using Forgemaster Gloves in the early-mid game / Gauntlets of Swift Action + BotEP in the mid-late game; and also getting Shimmering Cloak.

P.P.S. Opt for 1 point in athletics, 4 or 10 in survival (for the bonus acc), and either invest in mechanics (if it's your mech guy), or lore (in this case especially take a look at scrolls of paralysis and confusion).

Edited February 27, 2018 by MaxQuest

[MasterCipher]

Not related to the most recent question, but it's an effective micro tactic to maximize the damage from Ectopsychic Crush, which has the highest DPS potential by far of any Cipher ability. Use Going Between (fast cast) on a tank, offtank, or ranger pet to maximize the beam - he should be able to survive disengagement attacks. There are other +movement options like gear/talents/and other abilities but +3 seems to be plenty. You can also air drop a summon behind enemy lines to anchor.

[hansvedic]

I'm thinking about making a frontline cipher that does some cc and some damage. 

Specifically, I'm thinking about a Hearth Orlan for hit to crit conversion (from Ixamitl Plains for the pike starting weapon and bonus resolve upon transfer to Deadfire) that will eventually wield dual Godansthunyr (so Weapon Focus Soldier would be chosen) for the boost to might and the stun on crits, along with dual damage types.

 

I'm thinking of the following stats:

Might: 15 (17 with dual Godansthunyr)

Con: 9

Dex: 15

Per: 15

Int: 16

Res: 8

 

Two questions:

1. Does the stat spread look good?

2. What powers would you recommend for such a frontliner?

Edited February 27, 2018 by hansvedic

[Slack83er]

In next run I’d like to go cipher. Things I know are:

High res for dialogues, prolly two weapons like hatchets which with high res go for high deflection, high dex for high speed.

 

Which race would suit? Maybe I’d like wild Orlan but it’s just a guess..

The attitude I like to play the most is clever..

and would like wtw bg. So maybe even pale elf or dwarf...

I still have a long way to go before completing my pally play through so... hope to gather many info!

Edited February 27, 2018 by Slack83er

[MaxQuest]

I'm thinking about making a frontline cipher that does some cc and some damage.

A mix of v1 and v3? Generally it's ok.

But personally I always feel a but guilty when casting a cc power with such cipher, because points put in MIG do not contribute) 

 

and bonus resolve upon transfer to Deadfire)

You think you'll be able to import the orlan, choose a new race, but retain +1 RES and +2 PER?

 

Two questions:

1. Does the stat spread look good?

2. What powers would you recommend for such a frontliner?

1. It will do.

2. You will still want Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding and Amplified Wave. From damage inflicting powers you would need Soul Shock, Echo, Silent Scream, Detonate and Disintegration.

And ofc Time Parasite is a must, unless you craft DAoM potions.

[hansvedic]

 

I'm thinking about making a frontline cipher that does some cc and some damage.

A mix of v1 and v3? Generally it's ok.

But personally I always feel a but guilty when casting a cc power with such cipher, because points put in MIG do not contribute) 

 

and bonus resolve upon transfer to Deadfire)

You think you'll be able to import the orlan, choose a new race, but retain +1 RES and +2 PER?

 

Two questions:

1. Does the stat spread look good?

2. What powers would you recommend for such a frontliner?

1. It will do.

2. You will still want Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding and Amplified Wave. From damage inflicting powers you would need Soul Shock, Echo, Silent Scream, Detonate and Disintegration.

And ofc Time Parasite is a must, unless you craft DAoM potions.

 

Thanks for the feedback, MaxQuest.

 

Quick question: Why do you say that I would change my race when transferring to Deadfire? Can you not keep the same race when transferring?

[MaxQuest]

^ You can.

 

I just wonder why you mentioned "bonus resolve")

[hansvedic]

^ You can.

 

I just wonder why you mentioned "bonus resolve")

 

The "bonus resolve" is from the background, Ixamitl Plains. Sorry for the confusion.

[hansvedic]

Sorry again for the double-post.

I just wanted to know... Is Novice's Suffering Cipher still any good? I know that the soul whip bonus doesn't work well with the wimpy base damage of fists, but I'm still interested.

If so, how would you go about building it? Presumably it would be a DPS cipher, of course.

[Boeroer]

You wouldn't want to take Biting Whip and all the other dmg bonus talents like Savage Attack and so on. But Draining Whip should work fine I guess?

 

You'll want max MIG because its bonus also works with the N. Suffering's flat damage bonus and not only with the base damage. Same with Sandals of the Forgotten Friar that you should seek. So in the end it works like:

(Base damage (5-8 ) + Suffering's bonus (scales) + Sandal's Bonus (2)) * MIG bonus.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Boeroer

[hansvedic]

Thanks, Boeroer.

 

On another note, why does the wiki say that Novice's Suffering bonus damage does not scale with Might?

From the Wiki:

"It grants +5 (+2 per 3 levels after 1) unarmed damage – for a total of +15 damage at level 16 – and +0 (+4 per 3 levels after 1) unarmed accuracy. The bonus damage is not subject to increase by stats such as Might, unlike the monk variant."

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Novice%27s_Suffering 

[Boeroer]

Hm, don't know. Last time I used it (with Edér) it did. I still have the save and can check tomorrow, am almost asleep...

[Boeroer]

So, after waking up and doing my morning routine I loaded the savegame and voilá:

 

Still works as I said: base damage + suffering's bonus + sandals all get added and then multiplied with might bonus.

 

5+11+2 = 18
18 * 1.18 = 21

 

8+11+2 = 21

21 * 1.18 = 25

 

The wiki is wrong - I will edit the entry accordingly...

 

edit: edited the wiki page and also the page about the Sandals of the Forgotten Friar so that it's clear that those get affected by MIG. Also edited the page about Transcendent Suffering (there was no hint about MIG influence either). I also added info about the accuracy bonus not working with melee attack abilites such as Knockdown/Force of Anguish and so on.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[hansvedic]

Thanks, Boeroer! I appreciate your testing and insight.

 

As I plan out this Novice's Suffering Cipher, I am trying to decide on stats. I notice that MaxQuest puts at least 2 point into PER for his DPS ciphers, and yet I am wondering how big of a difference +2 or +3 accuracy really makes in the long run; I am certain it makes a difference in the beginning, but in the long run, I wonder if those points would be better served in DEX or INT, especially with the fast speed of the fists.

On another note, I notice that resolve for a DPS cipher is 8 at lowest in MaxQuest's suggestions. Is lower than that not recommended due to interrupts? 

Feel free to chime in, MaxQuest. I appreciate your insight into ciphers as well.

Finally, for a little background on my planned party... I am planning on using the official companions, with Aloth and/or Grieving Mother (and probably Hiravias, too) on CC duty.  My cipher main character may also do some CC, but I would prefer that, especially after the early game, that my cipher focuses on doing lots and lots of damage, with a bit of CC used as needed.

Basically, what's a good attribute spread with max might (either human, aumaua, or dwarf, though I am leaning towards human)?

[Boeroer]

For Novice's Suffering you don't need a lot of PER because grazes do nearly the same damage as crits - since the 50% malus/bonus only affect the whimpy 5-8 base damage. But your powers might want some bonus accuracy. But on the other hand: those get some bonuses anyways, also the +1/level as extra.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Boeroer

[MasterCipher]

Off topic - A lot of new information to me about novice suffering - trying to think of a way to min-max it. 

 

Debuffs from wizard: with combusting wounds and exploit weakness

 

Barbarian carnage or druid with avenging storm ? 

[Boeroer]

Combusting Wounds + Heart of Fury: this makes a big difference with tough, numerous foes (bounties, abbey and so on).

 

CW + Expose Vulnerabilities + Blunderbuss

 

CW + Expose Vulnerabilities + Wall of Flame

 

...and so on. The Backlash Beldam build used CW + multiretaliation + Pain Link which was effective as well. With Battle Forged, Flame Shield, Supper Plate and another retaliation item plus Pain Link you can stack 5 hits and thus 5 instances of CW on everybody who hits you.

 

I once played an Island Aumaua Wizard with 4 blunderbusses (+Quick Switch). It's impressive single target damage.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Boeroer